Boost and/or Fueling Issues After 1019 Nozzles and Stage 4

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Looking at the numbers, it appears your actuator could be too long. A 100mb of boost over requested is not a problem. When you get to 300mb above requested, the ECU cuts fuel to save the turbo, also if the error ( under 300mb) lasts for three seconds the ECU once again cuts fueling. Messing with the stop screw can blow a turbo, as sometimes the arm "sticks" telling the turbo to spin as fast as it can, and BOOM!. A longer stop screw is not a bad thing, at least it will prevent the turbo from having a runaway not related to oil in the intake tubing. I personally would not mess with the stop screw with the turbo still attached. If off the car go through the "standard" actuator setup it lifts off of the stop between 3-5" of vacuum, and it hits the stop at 18 or 19". If at 18" and the turbo is not on the stop screw, adjust the stop screw so it lands solid at 18". For example: the actuator doesn't hit the stop until 21", a couple of things could happen: one might be a lazy spool, and the other would be the tune is not applying enough vacuum to get to full spool. These last two things are not written in stone and may not apply to you, but there have been people these things have happened to in the past.
 

tdi_my live

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Germany
TDI
Skoda Fabia
I understand exactly what you wrote, but if you read OP's original post, he even shows he was overboosting under had 4th pulls. Which means vanes are probably sticky/stuck. Low air volume will cause it to smoke like crazy. So again, if you're not going to be helpful, don't post.

To OP, have you checked your actuator to see if it's adjusted properly or sticking?
Can you even read a log like that? The charger brings more than enough air mass to burn cleanly. But if you don't recalculate the new, large nozzles in the software, it will mercilessly inject way too much. Why did the tuner go and slightly increase the torque curve, increase the smoke limit, but reduce the driver's noise and reduce it to 33mg? That would mean the still has about 90PS. But it doesn't because it injects a lot more and also has more power. However, the ECU does not know that and therefore does not know how to regulate the boost pressure properly. Lead you it may be the measure of all things, but it can be done much better. It's so easy to always push everything onto the hardware, but here it's the software that needs to be considered.
 

Rapid Transit

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Location
SF Bay Area
TDI
03 4dr Golf GLS
I appreciate posts that discuss the software and it’s effects on the hardware. To me, it is so much more valuable than another stuck vanes diagnosis. tdi_my live, thanks for your input. Most that truly understand the programming are venders and they have little to no incentive to share this information. Anyone that tries to shut down this type of communication is doing a disservice to our forum.
Nut swingers will swing.
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Looking at the numbers, it appears your actuator could be too long. A 100mb of boost over requested is not a problem. When you get to 300mb above requested, the ECU cuts fuel to save the turbo, also if the error ( under 300mb) lasts for three seconds the ECU once again cuts fueling. Messing with the stop screw can blow a turbo, as sometimes the arm "sticks" telling the turbo to spin as fast as it can, and BOOM!. A longer stop screw is not a bad thing, at least it will prevent the turbo from having a runaway not related to oil in the intake tubing. I personally would not mess with the stop screw with the turbo still attached. If off the car go through the "standard" actuator setup it lifts off of the stop between 3-5" of vacuum, and it hits the stop at 18 or 19". If at 18" and the turbo is not on the stop screw, adjust the stop screw so it lands solid at 18". For example: the actuator doesn't hit the stop until 21", a couple of things could happen: one might be a lazy spool, and the other would be the tune is not applying enough vacuum to get to full spool. These last two things are not written in stone and may not apply to you, but there have been people these things have happened to in the past.
I have done a little fiddling with the actuator arm length, but I haven't noticed any significant difference. The actuator movement checked out using a vacuum gauge when I installed the injectors. I find it odd that the engine is getting more boost that requested, because most of the time boost is quite low (10-15psi) even when accelerating normally.

I expect the engine to put out smoke and run high EGT's at or near WOT, but the issue is that I never use WOT during normal driving, and I don't get much more than 15psi unless I really step on it. Smoke is pretty much constant, even at idle it puts out a haze that wasn't there before. I realize I do have a somewhat restrictive exhaust downpipe and hope to build a new one in about a month, but I don't think it is causing most of my problems.

Having given this some more consideration, here are my thoughts: before the injectors and Stage 4 tune, the turbo boosted fine to 18-20psi even at partial throttle, there was little to no smoke, and the engine ran very cool. The only things that have changed since then are injectors, tune, and MAP sensor, so one or more of those things are awry.

The injector nozzles are from a company in the UK called DSI, they had 150P1019 written on them and are nominally a 0.220 nozzle, but no other branding, so I'm not sure who made them. They were mounted and set to 220 bar but not flow tested. If the nozzles were poor quality could they be putting out much more fuel than the ECU expects?

I know the turbo is capable of putting out plenty of boost even at low rpm's; after each shift the boost hits 23psi very quickly and then drops back to 10-15. I can hear the vanes opening up and dumping the exhaust when this happens, which leads me to believe that either the tune isn't telling the N75 to give enough vacuum to the turbo or the vanes aren't where the ECU thinks they are. When I clocked the turbo I had to build a new actuator bracket, so the angle the actuator sits at may not be quite the same as on a factory turbo, but it is close.

The MAP is brand new from IDParts and doesn't throw any codes so I don't think that has anything to do with it.

Sorry for the long rambling post, hopefully its not too muddled to make sense of!
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Well a 1019 isn't a 0.220 nozzle... It's a 0.216. Willing to bet them nozzles aren't working right and the injectors are out of balance. Tune should have been set for a 0.216 nozzle, sounds like you got something way bigger. Mind you, a 0.220 shouldn't make much of a difference on the smoking, buf if they can't get the size right.... What else isn't?
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Well a 1019 isn't a 0.220 nozzle... It's a 0.216. Willing to bet them nozzles aren't working right and the injectors are out of balance. Tune should have been set for a 0.216 nozzle, sounds like you got something way bigger. Mind you, a 0.220 shouldn't make much of a difference on the smoking, buf if they can't get the size right.... What else isn't?
Much as I have been hoping the injectors aren't the culprit, I think you're probably right. Unknown make and quality make them the prime suspect, and even a professional job mounting them won't fix a poor quality nozzle.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Who did the work on the injectors? What is the boost pressure at WOT? Something is up, especially with the excessive smoking. What is the IQ set at?
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Who did the work on the injectors? What is the boost pressure at WOT? Something is up, especially with the excessive smoking. What is the IQ set at?
The nozzles were installed by DFIS in Portland. Boost at WOT according to my gauge is 20-23psi. I don't remember the IQ off the top of my head, it is somewhere between 6-7mg/str at hot idle.
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Iq deviation at idle is horrible. The closer to zero they are the better. The fact that 4 is way positive means it's hosing fuel and the other three have to greatly reduce to compensate.
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Would that explain slightly harder cold starts as well? Seeing those numbers prompted an email to Frank's TDI to get them sorted properly. Hopefully the nozzles themselves are ok and can be brought to within spec.
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
I'm pretty sure DFIS does pretty well work. If that's what the injection quantity balance looks like on a fresh set of nozzles, they're probably junk. Frank might be able to dial them in more, but who knows how long they'll last if they were made with poor materials.

As for harder starts? I don't think it would affect it.
 

KERMA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
here
TDI
99 beetle and 04 jetta
from the info presented in this thread, this appears to be a classic *boost leak* scenario.

massive air flow accompanied by massive smoke, slight underboost WOT and N75 duty cycle pegged high
No tune will fix this. Fix the boost leak or your turbo is not long for this world
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
from the info presented in this thread, this appears to be a classic *boost leak* scenario.

massive air flow accompanied by massive smoke, slight underboost WOT and N75 duty cycle pegged high
No tune will fix this. Fix the boost leak or your turbo is not long for this world
Pretty sure there isn't a boost leak, I checked over all my intake hose connections and didn't find anything amiss. Both my boost gauge line and MAP sensor are right near the intake manifold, surely if there were a boost leak it would show up as less boost than requested on the logs. All the logs I've done show significantly more boost than requested. I can also hear when the N75 changes the geometry of the vanes after the turbo reaches full boost at every shift, my exhaust is a side exit right in front of the rear wheel on the driver's side and is VERY audible. (Need to get a muffler installed at some point).

I did get a new tune last night, and after a test drive today it definitely made an improvement. EGT's are a bit lower, boost a little higher at partial throttle and there is a bit less smoke across the board. I still think the injectors should be looked at after seeing the IQ deviation numbers, and I definitely need to make a better flowing downpipe.

Will get some logs of this tune to try and actually quantify the results.
 

Pittdawg

Veteran Member
Joined
May 28, 2018
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
2014 Audi Q5 TDI
So just to summarize, a retune helped a bit but did not resolve the issue so now you will have the injectors inspected?
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
So just to summarize, a retune helped a bit but did not resolve the issue so now you will have the injectors inspected?
That's correct. Just to make things clear, nearly everything on this engine has been messed with to some extent, so it is totally possible that there are a combination of things at play here. I'm just trying to tackle them in a way that makes sense, considering that this is my sole method of transportation right now.

To clear up a possible source of confusion, I spoke with Malone recently and apparently based on the logs I did, I wasn't attaining 100% throttle position. I had a look and there was something in the way of the pedal limiting its motion. With that sorted I can now achieve true WOT. This may explain some of the oddities and discrepancies that people were noticing in the data I posted.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Just because it crossed my mind...I just got a hybrid turbo bid to rebuild a 1749vb cartridge and add a 56mm compressor wheel to a machined cold side: $600.00
I guess it was 5 years ago when mine was done, and my turbo is still completely trouble-free. Granted, I don't pound on it all the time or I would be looking for a turbo.
 

jhax

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Location
Golden, CO
TDI
96 Passat B4V, ALH engine out of a 2002 Jetta, some IE Rods and ASV Pistons. Nothing drivable yet though
@PradoTDI has your IQ at warm idle remained at between 6-7 mg/st? Does anyone know if this is what it should be given the hardware? I have a similar set up and I have my IQ set to 4.6 and I suspect that that is too much fuel. Can anyone confirm please?
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Figured I should update this thread. I recently installed rebuilt, properly calibrated injectors with Bosio DLC1019 nozzles. The difference is night and day! There's significantly less power than before, but it still pulls quite well. I think it was way over fueled and making much more power than normal for a Stage 4. Here's a list of the improvements:
- Lower EGT's. Maxxed out at 1125ºF pulling an 8% grade over the Rockies. Held 950º @ 110km/h and 1050º @ 120km/h.
- Smoother running engine, far less vibration, especially at low RPM
- Better low down power, I can now lug the engine like I'm used to with other TDI's (before I couldn't really use it below 2000rpm)
- Zero smoke, even under heavy acceleration
- Steadier holding boost, more gradual increase and less of a tendency to spike
- Quieter exhaust note

All that said, I checked the IQ and it is up around 9.5mg/str, so I need to do the hammer mod to bring that into spec. Doubtless the temps and power will increase, but it can't be anywhere near as bad as before. It is taking a lot of cranking to start, especially when hot, which I believe is due to the current underfueling situation. Fuel mileage is still about the same, maybe slightly better. My last tank, primarily highway driving at 105-115km/h was 24.0mpg.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Unknown nozzles can be a PITA; not all of the shops that do setup and calibration do not have the equipment to set the second stage. I will not call them out in open forum, so PM me if you like.
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
I bought the new nozzles from KermaTDI and had them mount and calibrate them. Absolutely stunning the difference it made. I have since adjusted the IQ value to around 6.5-7.0mg/str and it starts much better and has a bit more power. Temps are slightly higher but still totally within reason; I may adjust it a little further.

Here's a photo of the injectors I removed; its pretty obvious there were some major issues with them:
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Absolutely, even they had only been in for about 6 months and less than 3000km. I consider myself lucky that there wasn’t any engine damage.
 
Top