Blown turbo - car value?

[wireedge]

Well, Friday on my way home from work on the freeway, my 2005 BEW Jetta wagon (5sp manual) coughed out white smoke and died. The dealership reports that the turbo is blown. The car has 275k miles on it. Great, great car that I really love, but I don't have the funds to replace a turbo on a car with this many miles. As a separate issue, the towing company cracked the oil pan slightly, so that has to be replaced as well (though the car was never run while low on oil - it is only a quart low right now, 3 days after the turbo failure).

I know there are folks who want to get their hands on manual wagons. Any thoughts on the value of it in a sale at this point? I am completely gutted about this. It was running perfectly up to that point. I feel aimless trying to figure out what to do next.

 

[oilhammer]

Why not just replace the turbo? If the car is in decent shape otherwise, I would. My daily driver is older and has 200,000 more miles on it than yours! If my turbo went tomorrow, I'd replace it and motor on.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Yeah I'd do the turbo, too. Oil pan should be replaced by the towing company's insurance.

 

[wireedge]

No monies.

 

[waltzconmigo]

buyers are going to want to know about the timing belt and cam probably first and foremost. how is the suspension and clutch? sorry to hear you are unable to repair. hate to say it but some buyers may be turned off by the miles but I doubt you could get any car as valuable for the cost of repair.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Car is worth more running than not. If you replace the turbo and the oil pan, which you can probably do for $1,500 or so, then the car may be worth $3K more than if you sell it not running. Or you may consider continuing to drive it.

People seem to hesitate to spend money on an older car for whatever reason, which I find confusing. Look at it this way: What kind of car would you get if you sold it as is for, say, $4K, and then put another $1,500 that you would of spent on repairs on a replacement? I doubt you'll get something as good as what you'd have if you fixed this one.

Just my .02.

 

[Jettascuba]

At this moment your car isn't worth a lot. Damage due to blown turbo, damage due to cracked oil pan are all things that will put off prospective buyers even if you 'know' the engine is still in great condition. Saying that the car was perfectly running up to this point is... Well... Like saying it was perfectly running until it went under a 90 wheeler...

At least get a damage assesment from a knowledgable tdi mechanic.

 

[wireedge]

How tough is a turbo replacement to DIY? Dealer price for the turbo assembly is $1312, ID Parts has it for under $1k.

 

[puntmeister]

As a full-fledged DIYer: I had a quasi-mechanic take my turbo off - but, he copped out when it came to putting it back on, so...I put it back on myself.

To be honest, it was a royal PITA - for the same reason that almost all car repairs are a pain - its tough to physically get your hands/tools where they need to be....

I'm assuming your model is similar to mine (a 2004 BEW) - the turbo installs right smack in the middle - tough to access from the top, tough to access from the bottom.

That's being totally honest.

All that said, I DID manage to get it back on - so it is definitely doable for a DIYer.

The biggest pain is probably the intake hose-clamp - the hose that goes into the turbo intake side. There's a special remote-clamp tool - available at most auto-shops (around $40) - I don't think I could have gotten it without the tool (was a pain even with the tool...).

Beyond that one specialty tool - really just need a variety of socket extensions, wobble-extensions, etc - thank goodness for cheap-chinese Harbor Freight tools - we DIY'ers would be out of luck otherwise....

 

[puntmeister]

I will also likely get flamed for this, as it is such a contentious issue - but, in all fairness, do need to mention: it is, in theory, possible to get a turbo rebuilt.

Whether or not it is a good idea, and how long a rebuilt turbo will last, is a a very contentious issue around here. I don't really have any hard facts one way or another - I just remember researching the issue heavily (only to find out my turbo was fine, and the only problem was a cracked pipe between the turbo & EGR....).

At the time, I had found one guy who specializes in turbo rebuilds (the only guy in the greater Phoenix area - been doing them for decades - every mechanic around pointed to the same guy). When I got ahold of him, he knew the TDI turbo well - and refused to rebuild it. Says he won't rebuild Variable-Vane-Turbos (which is what we have).

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I was with you until the turbo rebuild part.

Get this, put it on, keep on keeping on (and saving money at the same time). http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=761

As Peter said, the car isn't worth much as it sits, but it's worth quite a bit in running condition (the difference being greater than the cost of repair).

 

[supton]

How did the towing company crack the pan?

 

[turbovan+tdi]

How did the towing company crack the pan?

You really need to ask? Sorry to any decent tow truck operators on here but honestly, most drivers are grunts who don't give a fly f about your ride.

That being said, the tow truck must pay for the oil pan and if they don't, take them to small claims court.

So you have no money, how are you going to buy a new car? Hit up the bank for a small loan and get her fixed, better and cheaper than buying a new car.

 

[bugeye72]

Well, I admittedly don't know diddly about the BEW engine, I'm having a hard time understanding why and believing that the engine would blow white smoke and then not run as the result of a bad turbo. Maybe you need another diagnosis. I've heard many accounts of turbos being replaced that didn't need it.

 

[Jettascuba]

Well, I admittedly don't know diddly about the BEW engine, I'm having a hard time understanding why and believing that the engine would blow white smoke and then not run as the result of a bad turbo. Maybe you need another diagnosis. I've heard many accounts of turbos being replaced that didn't need it.

I agree - as I am also puzzled by the white smoke and the engine quitting.

Normally - turbo fail, then black smoke, some bad noises, but engine keeps on running. Except if it inhale the innards of the turbo... Is why I said - take it to someone who knows what is going on!!

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Is why I said - take it to someone who knows what is going on!!

That's silly talk.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Uh... Hydro lock on oil can kill the engine... And cause copious amounts of white smoke.

 

[mrGutWrench]

Hey, Wireedge - I was in your exact same position a couple of months ago. It was acting like the turbo vacuum controller (little valve right up at the top of the engine compartment, just below the weather seal for the hood and directly in front of the steering wheel; it would cause "limp mode" fails if I had to give it full accelerator, like on a tall hill. I replaced that and it was *much* better but still not good and it began giving "low boost" trouble codes on hills within a couple of weeks.
My car is an '03 with the ALH engine but I think they're similar but not identical. Yeah, the turbo is below and behind the intake manifold, between the engine and the body firewall.
I bit the bullet and replaced the turbo (340K miles). I didn't wash the oil out of it but it seemed that the shaft was rattling around in the bearings like a clapper in a bell. I know that when I stuck my finger in it, I could feel the sideways motion in the shaft. My car now runs strong and sweet and I haven't had a single limp mode code in 15K miles. For about $1100, I saved myself the cost of trading cars and I'm ready to go for another third of a million miles.

Take it from someone who worked his whole career in the vehicle business -- the cheapest car is ALWAYS one you already own. If you've been ahead on your maintenance and you know your car, you'll have to repair/replace worn pieces at the hundreds of thousands of miles roll up. But - unless you have a very unusual situation - it's cheaper and better to do the repairs and keep running. People talk about "the car was 'Hundred Dollering me to death' but they trade and spend thousands to save a hundred. If you have enough to trade, you have more than enough to fix it.

Just my opinion, but it's one from someone who has been there.

(PS I agree that you have to be sure that there is no other damage to the engine. My turbo just 'wore out' but it didn't go out with a bang. A true catastrophic failure may be another story.)

(PPS - I'm pretty sure that the vacuum controller valve wasn't a red herring. It was worn and leaking vacuum on hand-held pump test. The turbo was worn out internally. So it was a case of two old worn components both needing to be replaced.)

 

[wireedge]

Alright, so after getting past the initial emotional reaction (even though it is a car, we spend so much time together that a failure like that feels almost like a betrayal - stupid, I know), I now agree that it is going to get the repair. I know a guy who does on-site mechanic work and specialized in diesels. He worked on my father-in-law's 1980 300CD Mercedes and did great work. He can tow it from the dealership and do the work at my house for very reasonable labor rates. The dealership is estimating $2800 which is way too high to me for a $1000 part and mno more than 8-10 (?) hours in labor.

Now comes the question, do I go with the OEM Borg Warner turbo, or the Garrett? With the Garrett, will it be laggy without a tune? I don't want to spend the money on tuning. This is a car to serve me for a 120-mile round trip commute daily, and reliability and fuel economy mean far more to me than performance. I would like to order the stuff today, so I would be interested in feedback.

 

[wireedge]

Oh, jeez, didn't read the last few replies before I posted - any thought that it might not be the turbo then? Ugh.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Labor time for a turbo swap should be around 4 hours. Maybe a bit higher for your car, since the mechanic will have to clean out the intercooler and piping if the failure was catastrophic.

If you're going to keep the car stock I'd go with the B-W turbo. I'm told it drives a little better than the Garrett with a stock ECU, and it'll probably last as long as the car.

 

[supton]

I think I agree with mrGutWrench, with only a couple caveats: after a decade or two the extra safety features may be worthwhile (if you care about that sort of thing), and for us up here in the rust belt, if one didn't do due diligence then one may have a rust bucket not worth saving.

I have to admit, I've contemplated letting things break, and then when the sum total of repairs required got deep into the thousands then trade. Problem is, either you trade into something else with lots of miles and that much closer to needing similar work; or you trade into new, which means spending vastly more to buy than to fix what you already have.

I haven't kept track, oughta go do that, but I think between purchase and repairs I'm getting down to 10c/m on my VW. I don't think that is a bad cost/mile.

 

[puntmeister]

Oh, jeez, didn't read the last few replies before I posted - any thought that it might not be the turbo then? Ugh.

Can you live without the car for a few days?

My suggestion - have your mechanic friend take a look. Oddly, dealers don't have the best track record.

If he figures its the turbo - have him remove it. Once removed, it should be clear to see if it was the issue. Then, if indeed the turbo was the problem - order a new turbo...

This process adds a bit of time - but keeps from the headache & cost of ordering, then returning, un-needed parts.

PS: $2,800 is absurd. Especially since they'd likely do a poor job of it. A local guru quoted me, if I remember correctly, around $350 labor to remove/install turbo.

 

[wireedge]

That's probably the best approach. Thanks again TDI Club for being the voice of reason.

 

[wireedge]

By the way, I ordered the oil pan and new bolts today. Is that as simple as draining the oil, unbolting the old pan, bolting in the new and refilling oil?

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Uh... Hydro lock on oil can kill the engine... And cause copious amounts of white smoke.

How's a blown turbo going to hydrolock it? It would run away first, wouldn't it?

By the way, I ordered the oil pan and new bolts today. Is that as simple as draining the oil, unbolting the old pan, bolting in the new and refilling oil?

You need to scrape the sealer off the block, clean it with brake cleaner, apply sealer to oil pan and install.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how much oil goes in at once.

 

[JB05]

I think there are two or three bolts on the oil pan near the transmission that may be hard to reach without some ball tipped allens.

 

[wireedge]

Uh... Hydro lock on oil can kill the engine... And cause copious amounts of white smoke.

When you say "kill" do you mean stall or damage?

 

[wireedge]

You need to scrape the sealer off the block, clean it with brake cleaner, apply sealer to oil pan and install.

Easy enough. Thanks!