Blown injectors or burned up valves?

Clevenger

Active member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Location
Texas
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
I will take the vacuum pump apart this evening and post pictures of the inside.

Might I suggest a possible series of events?

Story of a doomed engine:

First a lifter explodes into 4 large shards and lots of smaller pieces. This is the point at 80MPH where I start seeing black smoke out of my tailpipe and pull over. The car was rolling a moderate amount of black smoke and running a little loud when I pulled off to take a look at the damage. Seeing nothing visually wrong I kept driving to get to the a shop.

The car can still get to 50 MPH and is blowing black smoke so I figured it was limp mode for some reason even though there was no CEL. The crankcase is now a steel blender and is blasting pieces of steel and aluminum into the oil flow. a piece makes it's way into the pump and seizes the vacuum pump. The pump puts enough torque on the cam to deform steel and also unseats the cam pulley (which was torqued to 33 ft-lbs per spec). Now my performance is deteriorating rapidly as the time goes further and further out. And my car slows down to 20MPH with the pedal on the floor. Also lots of white smoke.

I stopped again just short the shop and disconnected the turbo, which made the engine run better with less air (not sure why). By now the timing is way off, it is running like crap and damaged beyond repair before I even make it to the shop.

Does that sound like a possible sequence?

Pictures of the vacuum pump will follow shortly.
 

Clevenger

Active member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Location
Texas
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
Genesis - Fair point. From looking at the Head, I thought that the oil flowed into the pump from the head area. It was a bad assumption on my part.

I pulled the vacuum pump apart. The main pump area looked pretty normal. Maybe some new wear lines on the flat faces, but nothing that could seize hard enough to damage the shaft.

Then I pulled the main shaft apart and looked at the end near the camshaft. Note the groove and the heat discoloration near the top. It certainly looks like something made it's way in there and was generating enough heat to turn the steel gray and blue. It was very hard to get the color to come out right. This was the best we could do.



The discoloration denotes some pretty serious heat. Would something like that be enough to jam up the pump, even just for a while?
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
The Timing of the Injection Pump with the Crankshaft (Pistons) was spot-on based on the previous photos and your comments. The Cam is now late in time...and most likely allowing the pistons to smack the Exhaust Valves.

I'm still scratching my head on the damaged Cam end at the Vacuum Pump. That all looks suspect ......... something is amiss. For that slot to be worn that bad, especially suddenly, I'm surprised that the Vacuum Pump didn't bust.

The black smoke was likely from the cylinder with the busted lifter..

I cannot image that the other Exhaust Valves are not damaged... loss of power come from low compression due those valves not seating properly.

Take a look at the pics below.... very similar to what you experienced. In this case, the valve broke (Intake). My brother purchased the car from a guru (on the list, that will remain nameless). One of the guys did admit that the car was pushed through the auction when they purchased it. Also, there was an extreme amount of crud build-up in the Intake Ports of the head, which I suspect chunked off and got caught under that Intake Valve. Anyway, the final blow occurred when my brother was running 75 MPH on the expressway at Chattanooga, Tennessee. The engine stayed in Time... pics in my gallery prove it.



 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
I would have expected something real serious and obvious in the vacuum pump in terms of it locking up hard enough to kill the tail of the cam like that. But nonetheless it did happen, and I'm assuming it WASN'T chewed like that when you did the belt 1,000 miles back, right?

The vacuum pump has its oil fed via that nice hole on the head which matches with the hole on the pump in the O-ring. If there's no oil going in there it won't live long. Is that passage open on the pump (looks ok on the head in your pictures)?

I'd be in the "cam sprocket slipped" as the first element of the blowup camp except for that cam tail damage. That's a smoking gun that *something* jammed the cam's rotation at the coupler; I don't see how else it could occur, and that would be *way* beyond normal rotational torque and thus slip the sprocket, producing the rest of the carnage.....
 

Clevenger

Active member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Location
Texas
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
AndyBees - The picture of the valve embedded in the head makes me hurt a little on the inside. The picture of the top of the lifter looks almost identical to mine. My engine still runs and is not reporting a misfire, so I don't think my valves are quite that destroyed.

Genesis - I am puzzled at this point too. even with my relatively small amount of experience, things aren't adding up.

I re-examined the pump. Again, the only sign of damage I could fine was the small line scored around the main shaft and the associated heat discoloration above it. The internals of the pump are in good shape, no evidence of major trauma. I poked a small zip tie through the oil passages and did not encounter any debris or resistance. When I originally disassembled the pump, there was lots of oil in it.

When I made my first stop after the black smoke, I hooked up my vac-com and checked the timing, because the timing was my first fear when it happened. The timing graph put me spot on near the top line, but not above it. Would that have shown the cam's position, or is that timing only comparing the IP vs the crankshaft?

I have no idea what could have caused the pump to seize that badly! It almost certainly happened, and that should have left really obvious evidence. Is there a way that I could have put the pump on wrong?

When I took it off for the timing, I just unbolted it and placed it inside a zip-lock bag and left it there for the rest of the job. Then pulled it out and bolted it in place after aligning the tail. At that point I can confirm for sure that there was no damage to the tail. I like my car and I love precision machined things. I would have noticed that kind of damage.

As for the car. I think I am going to have to sell it for parts. I don't know if I would trust this engine if I rebuilt it because of the amount of shrapnel that is uncounted for. (even if the cylinders and rods were ok). This was my only car. Both daily driver and road trips. Not uncommon to put 4,000 miles down during Christmas Holiday season. I don't want to be 5 states away from home and then find out that I missed a piece and have my engine blow again.

It has a lot of new parts on it because I had just finished doing all the maintenance to get it ready for the next 100,000 miles. (Tires, battery, rack and pinion, power steering pump, rear shocks, blend door and heater repaired, timing belt with all new hardware, water pump, emergency brake cables, etc). Would you guys recommend posting it here on the forum or selling parts individually and then scrapping the car?
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
VCDS is only going to show you where the IP is in relationship to the crank, so it won't tell you that the cam jumped time.

I wouldn't sell it for parts at THIS point. Pull the head first, measure piston protrusion. If you have no bent rods either find a used head at a pick-n-pull (YOU pull it!) that looks like it's never been off the car OR send yours out and have it fixed. While you're at it for paranoia's sake you can drop the pan and clean it out, but I wouldn't get stressed about anything beyond that. You'd be surprised at what I've found in oil pans before -- pieces of valve keeper being a good one... generally there's not a problem with any of that sort of thing.

If the rods are bent then it's a tougher call but with only head damage I'd look for a TDI in a pick-n-pull, grab the head, measure your piston protrusion, order the proper head gasket kit and depending on the mileage on the picked head maybe a cam and set of lifters, put it back together with the vacuum pump off the donor car and drive it.

I sure wouldn't condemn the vehicle unless there's bore or rod damage evident once the head is off.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
VCDS shows Injection Timing with respect to the TDC of the Crankshaft only. There's no sensor to monitor the position of the Cam. Edit: Genesis I typed my response but never posted. So, I never saw what you stated... looks like we are on the same page.

If you had put the pump in wrong, you could not have bolted it down flush.i

As for shrapnel in the engine, that would be the least of my worries. You have to pull the head. Then, you'll make a decision at that point to proceed or not. If you move toward repairs based on the condition of the associated parts affected, then you need to remove the oil pan and clean out any pieces that made it down there. Check the oil pick-up tube screen for debris. If it looks to be somewhat loaded with debris, then a decision needs to be about replacing the oil pump. The oil filter has caught anything at that point.

So, why did the engine expel black smoke? Was this close to a run-away? Was a glob of oil blown out of the Inter Cooler?

I'm still scratching my head about the damage to the end of the Cam...
 
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burn_your_money

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Location
North Bay, ON
TDI
99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
I'd be looking at dropping a replacement engine in if it looks ugly when the head comes off. If the car is otherwise good, it won't be easy to replace.
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
What part of Texas are you in? I'm in SW Arkansas and can help you find parts if you decide to put it back together

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ghohouston

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
Lewisville, Texas
TDI
2001 Jetta Sedan TDI 5 Speed
I have a spare block. Might need to be bored out, but had no catastrophic failure. Pulled it due to excess oil consumption. Found one valve seal completely gone. Pistons and bottom end are still together. Im in Denton.
 

Clevenger

Active member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Location
Texas
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
Hey guys,

I am unable to express how grateful I am to you guys for the help, support and encouragement for this project.

I have been leaning toward buying another used vehicle due to time and circumstances. I was actually planning on sitting down and telling you guys that I don't have the time and I am just going to sell the car. It was a surprisingly emotional decision to let this car go and move on. I have grown quite attached to it but I was still going to sell it.

However. You guys have made a compelling argument to at least try. But this is my only car, and it is going to take a while to get it repaired. That is not ok since I am currently borrowing a car to get to work every day. So now my plan is to buy a used Jetta I have my eye on (manual transmission this time!) and keep the 02 and work on it until it either runs, or I decide that it is not worth the amount of money it would take to get it going again. Having a daily driver again will take the stress off of working on the 02 engine.

In January I will pull the head to inspect for damage. If there is damage to cylinders or rods, I think it might be a lost cause, but if they are in good shape I will consider options for a new head.

I live in Greenville TX, which is 45 minutes NE of Dallas.

Thank you guys so much for the encouragement! This is by far the most mechanically advanced thing I have attempted, so I will certainly have questions as I go. I started working on my car when finished school 2 years ago because I wanted to learn how to work on cars. (Also I don't really trust the dealership to not break my car even more) I guess it is time to learn how to rebuild part of an engine. This should be fun :)

I will keep this thread updated as things progress.

What threads or tutorials would you recommend I read or follow for learning how to do this? I am happy to read and watch other things so that I don't ask questions that you guys have already thoroughly answered elsewhere. Like: How do I measure cylinder protrusion? and what is the right value for a MK4 TDI engine?

Thanks again!!
-Clevenger
 
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ghohouston

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
Lewisville, Texas
TDI
2001 Jetta Sedan TDI 5 Speed
As i said, im just south of you in Denton, if you need anything. I am not a tdi "guru", but have replaced my clutch, replaced my timing belt, resealed injection pump, replaced injectors, etc etc, and can help you if needed. I am a diesel/heavy equipment mechanic also. There is also an actual guru here in Denton.
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
If you can find a pick n pull or place to pull your own engine, you should e looking at 4 or 500 for a complete engine... IP and all...depends on the yard and if they know to charge for certain things.

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WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
Hey guys,

I am unable to express how grateful I am to you guys for the help, support and encouragement for this project.

I have been leaning toward buying another used vehicle due to time and circumstances. I was actually planning on sitting down and telling you guys that I don't have the time and I am just going to sell the car. It was a surprisingly emotional decision to let this car go and move on. I have grown quite attached to it but I was still going to sell it.

However. You guys have made a compelling argument to at least try. But this is my only car, and it is going to take a while to get it repaired. That is not ok since I am currently borrowing a car to get to work every day. So now my plan is to buy a used Jetta I have my eye on (manual transmission this time!) and keep the 02 and work on it until it either runs, or I decide that it is not worth the amount of money it would take to get it going again. Having a daily driver again will take the stress off of working on the 02 engine.

In January I will pull the head to inspect for damage. If there is damage to cylinders or rods, I think it might be a lost cause, but if they are in good shape I will consider options for a new head.

I live in Greenville TX, which is 45 minutes NE of Dallas.

Thank you guys so much for the encouragement! This is by far the most mechanically advanced thing I have attempted, so I will certainly have questions as I go. I started working on my car when finished school 2 years ago because I wanted to learn how to work on cars. (Also I don't really trust the dealership to not break my car even more) I guess it is time to learn how to rebuild part of an engine. This should be fun :)

I will keep this thread updated as things progress.

What threads or tutorials would you recommend I read or follow for learning how to do this? I am happy to read and watch other things so that I don't ask questions that you guys have already thoroughly answered elsewhere. Like: How do I measure cylinder protrusion? and what is the right value for a MK4 TDI engine?

Thanks again!!
-Clevenger
If I still had my 2.slow I'd let you borrow that till you hated it so much you decided to fix your own car...lol...

Long story, drug a trailer over an hour away thinking I was looking at a 1.8T car and I show up and it's not, apparently I got confused when car looking...my TDI had an IP issue and like you I needed something to drive. Soon after swapping the trans out and getting it on the road I found a 2000 TDI 5 speed base model with crank windows 1 owner car with 297k and thats how I got my second TDI

The 2.slow isn't a bad car but it's just gutless and this specimen was such a clapped out car it just wasn't worth saving per se, traded it for a 5 speed TDI new beetle with 2 retards that thought the timing belt tools were optional...and aside from the trashed head, the #4 cylinder was trashed. But it'll live again one day...

Having 2 TDI Jettas isn't the worst idea, but keep the other one on a battery tender

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Clevenger

Active member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Location
Texas
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
Hey Guys! I finally got around to pulling the head. Overall the process was not too bad. Pulled the intake, EGR stuff, and turbo first. Then knocked the timing belt and pulley off. Then I had a hard time getting the head bolts off. I had a reasonably good quality 12mm triple square tool, but it was not made for an impact wrench so it exploded into shrapnel. Once I ordered the right tool it came off pretty easily.
There was definitely some piston on valve contact. It doesn't seem very sever, but certainly present. The valves all passed the flashlight test (Shine light at the valves and look into the intake/exhaust and see if you can see the light). No light was visible, thus my hope that the contact was fairly gentle.



My most precise tool for measuring cylinder protrusions is a pair of digital calipers. Lacking a magnetic mount and dial indicator, I was having a hard time getting perfect TDC. If these numbers aren't good enough, I can either try again or buy a dial indicator.
Cylinder #1: 0.90 mm (0.0354")
Cylinder #2: 1.04 mm (0.0409")
Cylinder #3: 1.12 mm (0.0441")
Cylinder #4: 0.85 mm (0.0335")
The cylinder walls are smooth with no visual signs of scoring or damage. Not sure if this is normal for an engine with almost 400k miles on it, but the hash marks on the cylinder walls are pretty much gone.
With this information, I would like the opinion and experience of the forum on how to proceed.
-Is this engine in good enough shape to be worth finding a new/used head and installing it?
-Is there anything else I should look at for damage?
-What additional components would I need to replace? (oil pump, etc?)
-I got some coolant in the cylinder when pulling the head, I wiped it out and wiped the cylinder walls with fresh oil. It seems like some coolant is trapped down around the edge though. Should I be worried about that?
It will be a bit of a challenge to get this back together, but I have all the hardware cataloged into little bags and I didn't break anything else during disassembly, so I think I have a reasonable chance of putting this back together if it is worth fixing.
Thanks,
Clevenger
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Does the engine have a history of burning oil? If not, I would leave the lower end alone.



User Franko6 rebuilds these heads. You can have one rebuilt for around $600, just a bit more than a used one and you have a like new head when he is done.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Do you have pictures of the cylinder walls?

Is there a ridge at the top of the cylinder?

Can you get the same piston protrusion measurements a 2nd time, 3rd time? There's a lot of variation between the cylinders and using a caliper is a bit more challenging. Make sure you're approaching TDC from the same direction each time. If you go too far, roll it back 45 degrees and try again as there's a lot of slop in the rings.
 

Clevenger

Active member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Location
Texas
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
No serious oil consumption. I could make it 10,000 miles on little over 1/2 quart added.

I will get better pictures after work today.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
That's nothing. I would get the head rebuilt, new timing belt and call it a day. Probably around $1,000 in parts total.
 

Clevenger

Active member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Location
Texas
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
Does the engine have a history of burning oil? If not, I would leave the lower end alone.
User Franko6 rebuilds these heads. You can have one rebuilt for around $600, just a bit more than a used one and you have a like new head when he is done.
The car has historically not burned much oil at all. Typically around 1/2 quart between changes unless my memory is really bad. $600 is a little high on what I would like to spend on a head, but from what I see of Franko6, the quality of his rebuilds is near legendary! So if I end up getting a rebuilt head, it will most likely be from him.
Do you have pictures of the cylinder walls?
The pictures aren't great, but here they are. Cylinder 1 thru 4:




Is there a ridge at the top of the cylinder?
Once I wiped some of the carbon away, there does appear to be a bit of a lip. But the lip actually gets bigger so is this the top of the sleeve? I am not actually sure what I am seeing here. If i put my fingernail on the wall of the cylinder and drag it up over the top, I don't catch it on anything.

Can you get the same piston protrusion measurements a 2nd time, 3rd time? There's a lot of variation between the cylinders and using a caliper is a bit more challenging. Make sure you're approaching TDC from the same direction each time. If you go too far, roll it back 45 degrees and try again as there's a lot of slop in the rings.
I went out and measured again. I improved my technique a little, but it is still being done with digital calipers. Here are the results:
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
The cylinder walls look good (there's still some cross hatching visible) and no lip at the top confirms this. There's no sleeves on these engines, pistons (rings) run directly on the cast iron of the block.

Your technique is getting better - what you're looking for with the piston protrusion measurements is weather or not you have a bent (kinked) rod or blown out rod bearing before putting time/$$/effort into putting it all back together. Cylinders 1, 2 & 3 are believable, however 4 is a bit questionable (and was "short" in your initial measurements as well).

Rod bearing is pretty easy to check while still in the car. If the piston side looks like this (multiple layers of bearing material visible) on any of them, it's probably time to dig into the bottom end (or bail out).



If your car is otherwise stock power wise (maybe tune only), and the rod bearings look good, I wouldn't be too concerned about a "kinked" rod. Many have run many thousands of miles on them without issue.

As you can see, it quickly becomes a "Where to stop" question...
 
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