Blown Engine and Turbo 2014 TDI PASSAT

Sonix611

New member
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Location
NE
TDI
2014 Passat SEL Premium
Hi Guys,

I bought a modified CPO - 2014 Passat TDI SEL P with 18K miles on it, driving the vehicle past the 6,000 mile mark problems started to pop up, here are the sequence of problems that I have had with the vehicle in a short period of time.

1. (Date:10-Jul-2020) The check engine light was turned on and the vehicle was brought in to the dealership to troubleshoot, they identified and replaced the faulty oxygen sensor. The check engine light was reset and the vehicle was running fine until another issue popped up.

2. (Date:02-Sep-2020) All of a sudden the heater in the car stopped working and it also illuminated the check engine light, I had to take the vehicle again to the dealership to troubleshoot the issue, this time they identified that it had a faulty heater core, which then was replaced and also they completed the fully recommended service which had complete oil replacements.

3. (Date:04-Sep-2020) While driving on a highway, I heard a mild noise under the hood and things went chaotic, the coolant temperature went high above nominal, the speedometer went crazy, the brakes weren't working, the steering got locked (Not able to move freely), I was lucky enough that there were no vehicles front or back of me, otherwise it would have been a fatal incident. I managed to use my hand brakes to slow down and slightly move the vehicle to the shoulder. Oil was leaking underneath the engine at its first look. The vehicle then had to be towed to the dealership.

4. (Date:13-Sep-2020) Few days later the dealership identified that they found a hole in the engine block and they came back to me and mentioned the whole engine block and also the turbo has to be replaced which they mentioned is covered under warranty as it was a manufacturing defect, Initially they mentioned that I could have the vehicle ready by Late Nov-2020 and then they updated me saying it would be toward the end of the year 2020.

I raised an complaint by contacting VW corporate requesting for a Buyback after facing these many issues and delays with the vehicle and they have denied to qualify the vehicle for a buyback. (Went through a 7 week review process to take a decision)

It has now been with the Dealership waiting for parts for about 9 months now, still haven't heard any reasonable explanation for the delay expect that they have updated the due date for the Turbo end of July. I have been paying my monthly EMI on time for this whole period.

I would like to reach out to the community to see if someone has been experiencing similar issues waiting for parts from VW for a long time, Can I take any legal actions?, what other options do I have from your experience.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
If they are doing their part and it sounds like they are so far, I doubt you will get anywhere. They are only required to repair the car and provide a loaner if needed while doing it. Turbos for this car are a known supply issue. You knew the terms for these cars when you bought it. As long as they follow the rules in the emissions settlement, they owe you nothing else. But it doesn't hurt to keep trying for a buyback if you can in the mean time.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yep, it's a trainwreck. It sucks. This is why I drive older ones. No warning lights. No breakdowns. No warranty. No dealers. No waiting on parts (well, nothing major ever breaks anyway).

I just resurrected a 2005 A4 Jetta gasser for one of my CKRA Passat customers to drive while he is in perpetual parts waiting. $2200 total (car + some refurbishing). It at least won't strand him.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Yep, it's a trainwreck. It sucks. This is why I drive older ones. No warning lights. No breakdowns. No warranty. No dealers. No waiting on parts (well, nothing major ever breaks anyway).

I just resurrected a 2005 A4 Jetta gasser for one of my CKRA Passat customers to drive while he is in perpetual parts waiting. $2200 total (car + some refurbishing). It at least won't strand him.
You paint a rosy picture of the older cars but there are many stories here about them doing exactly what you say they don't do. If you aren't a competent DIY'er or have access to a trusted mechanic or knowledgeable tdi mechanic, you may have similar issues as some have at the dealer. They all have issues of some sort or another. The earlier ones are much simpler and less expensive for parts, but labor is the same no matter what car it is. Some parts are NLA as well, mostly cosmetic pieces and such. If you also factor in safety the newer cars are much, much better in that regard.

I have owned 6 or 7 older ones and two newer ones since 2005. runonbeer/aNUT worked on all the older ones till they left and I had no issues they couldn't quickly fix at a reasonable cost. Finding another tdi knowledgeable mechanic wasn't a reality at any reasonable cost here. Only just turned 40k on the 2015 Beetle and have had no issues with it and only serviced by the dealer except for I did the DSG service myself. With VCDS and the service tools from IDParts for a bottom drain and fill. I have never been stranded in any of the tdi's I own including the 2013 Passat and 2015 Beetle. I would expect anyone who takes care of their car properly wouldn't be stranded but may have issues that need to be addressed. Generally I think people get stranded mostly from ignoring issues until they are stuck.

I almost always have another cheap car on hand as well just for those times when one is needed. Currently a 1994 Ford F-150 6 cyl, 5 speed. $1200.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
LMAO, labor is most certainly NOT the same... wow...

Let's see, a few off the top of my head:

Thermostat:

ALH: .9hr, takes about 10 minutes actually... takes longer to heat cycle the engine to make sure it is full.

CJAA: 2.4hr, and it takes me longer because of that stupid plastic tube that like to break.

Turbocharger:

ALH: 3.5hr these are not high failure items, especially not in the first 1/4 million miles of use, unless you do not know how to drive)

CJAA: 6.4hr and these DO fail quite a bit, I've done more CJAA turbochargers on cars with less than 100k miles on them than I have done on ALHs, BEWs, BHWs, and BRMs COMBINED, regardless of mileage.

The cost of any of the CR's timing belt jobs is higher, and probably enough higher that the longer service interval isn't enough to overcome that difference. And the 2015s water pumps seem to have a 50/50 shot of even lasting that long anyway.

The VE and PDs have one simple EGR system, that is generally fairly reliable and if anything is needed it is easy to diagnose and fix (the BRMs have a short lived EGR cooler that leaks). The PDs have one lambda sensor in the exhaust that rarely fails, and some have one temp sensor in the exhaust that never fails. The VE has literally nothing plugged into its exhaust. The CRs have TWO completely independent EGR systems, an extra throttle in the exhaust (these were so troublesome on the CBEA and CJAA they had to extend the warranty on them... they still fail), and the 2015 engines have this exhaust throttle integrated into an exhaust pipe.... sit down when you have to price that one, LOL. The CRs have a myriad of temp sensors in the exhaust, some of which are placed in such an idiotic spot that you have to take all kinds of things apart to access them. And they fail. The CRs have two delta pressure sensors tapped into them, one for the low pressure EGR, one for the DPF. These also like to fail. The DPFs are a constant failure item, made MUCH worse after the "fix". The VE and PD engines have none of this. They have a simple non-monitored one-way DOC catalyst. That's it. The CR has in addition to the DPF at least THREE other catalysts. None of which are cheap.

Oh, and let's price the glow plugs while we are at it. The VE and PDs just use a simple element, relatively reliable, and easy to service. The CRs use a cylinder pressure sensor BUILT IN to each glow plug. One plug costs as much as a set on the older cars. And they have two ways to fail. In addition, sometimes the connectors break and you have to splice in new ones which is much more of a pain than doing the bridge or pigtails on the older engines, and they are much more sensitive due to the pressure sensors (these can be quite troublesome, there is a TSB about these, too).

Intake manifold: the VE's (ALH) intake cannot "break". It is one piece of cast aluminum with a couple machined flanges. That's it. Nothing to it. The BRM and BHW are similar, the BEW's has a split port function with a two piece design but rarely ever needs attention. The CR's intake is a convoluted mess that comprises about 100 individual pieces, including an electric servomotor and feedback sensor, and on the CBEA and CJAA these fail ALL THE TIME. So often, the dealer keeps three on the shelf, and an aftermarket company manufactures a preventive repair bracket for them and another aftermarket company sells pieces to rebuilt them. Oh, and it is 3.5hr labor to R&R one.

Let's not even go into any HPFP failures that immediately tooef all $2400 worth of fuel injectors, or intercoolers that randomly get so much water in them the engine's connecting rods bend suddenly when you go to start them up (you'll never, ever see a VE or PD TDI do that).

And I have never seen one of the earlier cars need a heater core EVERY YEAR because the EGR system superheats the coolant to the point that all the additives come out of suspension and clog them up! LMAO!!!

I don't have to paint a rosy picture of anything... I have it in vibrant living color in front of me EVERY DAY.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I meant the labor hourly rate, not the time it takes to do the job. But you are correct in that the jobs can take longer for the newer vehicles. But the point was they (older models) also have issues and finding someone to work on it if you don't DIY or have a trusted mechanic nearby can also have its issues when trying to find and deal with a shop. If you can do the majority of your own diagnostic and work they are great cars.
 

Zawurah

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Location
The Morning Star
TDI
3.0
Did the dealership give you a loaner during those 9 months? They must provide something equivalent. So unless you are driving a 2014'ish Passat, Tiguan, or maybe a Golf/Jetta, then they are not filling their obligation.

Are you still paying insurance for a car that doesn't run? You could drop the coverage to the lowest cost.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Borg-Warner is having some kind of serious production problem. Earlier this week I tried to re-order KP-39 turbos for BEW TDIs, and got a September ETA. I think that's optimistic. The CKRA turbo ETAs keep getting pushed, now they're August, I believe. We haven't had any since last October.
 

Sonix611

New member
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Location
NE
TDI
2014 Passat SEL Premium
Did the dealership give you a loaner during those 9 months? They must provide something equivalent. So unless you are driving a 2014'ish Passat, Tiguan, or maybe a Golf/Jetta, then they are not filling their obligation.

Are you still paying insurance for a car that doesn't run? You could drop the coverage to the lowest cost.
Yes, the dealership provided me with a loaner car, which they changed every 3 months, now they have provided me a with a loaner car from Enterprise.

I'm still paying the same insurance.
 

Sonix611

New member
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Location
NE
TDI
2014 Passat SEL Premium
If they are doing their part and it sounds like they are so far, I doubt you will get anywhere. They are only required to repair the car and provide a loaner if needed while doing it. Turbos for this car are a known supply issue. You knew the terms for these cars when you bought it. As long as they follow the rules in the emissions settlement, they owe you nothing else. But it doesn't hurt to keep trying for a buyback if you can in the mean time.
Thank you for the reply, I just wanted to explore my options, I haven't still received any positive responses from the dealership regarding the Turbo.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
LMAO, labor is most certainly NOT the same... wow...

Let's see, a few off the top of my head:

Thermostat:

ALH: .9hr, takes about 10 minutes actually... takes longer to heat cycle the engine to make sure it is full.

CJAA: 2.4hr, and it takes me longer because of that stupid plastic tube that like to break.

Turbocharger:

ALH: 3.5hr these are not high failure items, especially not in the first 1/4 million miles of use, unless you do not know how to drive)

CJAA: 6.4hr and these DO fail quite a bit, I've done more CJAA turbochargers on cars with less than 100k miles on them than I have done on ALHs, BEWs, BHWs, and BRMs COMBINED, regardless of mileage.

The cost of any of the CR's timing belt jobs is higher, and probably enough higher that the longer service interval isn't enough to overcome that difference. And the 2015s water pumps seem to have a 50/50 shot of even lasting that long anyway.

The VE and PDs have one simple EGR system, that is generally fairly reliable and if anything is needed it is easy to diagnose and fix (the BRMs have a short lived EGR cooler that leaks). The PDs have one lambda sensor in the exhaust that rarely fails, and some have one temp sensor in the exhaust that never fails. The VE has literally nothing plugged into its exhaust. The CRs have TWO completely independent EGR systems, an extra throttle in the exhaust (these were so troublesome on the CBEA and CJAA they had to extend the warranty on them... they still fail), and the 2015 engines have this exhaust throttle integrated into an exhaust pipe.... sit down when you have to price that one, LOL. The CRs have a myriad of temp sensors in the exhaust, some of which are placed in such an idiotic spot that you have to take all kinds of things apart to access them. And they fail. The CRs have two delta pressure sensors tapped into them, one for the low pressure EGR, one for the DPF. These also like to fail. The DPFs are a constant failure item, made MUCH worse after the "fix". The VE and PD engines have none of this. They have a simple non-monitored one-way DOC catalyst. That's it. The CR has in addition to the DPF at least THREE other catalysts. None of which are cheap.

Oh, and let's price the glow plugs while we are at it. The VE and PDs just use a simple element, relatively reliable, and easy to service. The CRs use a cylinder pressure sensor BUILT IN to each glow plug. One plug costs as much as a set on the older cars. And they have two ways to fail. In addition, sometimes the connectors break and you have to splice in new ones which is much more of a pain than doing the bridge or pigtails on the older engines, and they are much more sensitive due to the pressure sensors (these can be quite troublesome, there is a TSB about these, too).

Intake manifold: the VE's (ALH) intake cannot "break". It is one piece of cast aluminum with a couple machined flanges. That's it. Nothing to it. The BRM and BHW are similar, the BEW's has a split port function with a two piece design but rarely ever needs attention. The CR's intake is a convoluted mess that comprises about 100 individual pieces, including an electric servomotor and feedback sensor, and on the CBEA and CJAA these fail ALL THE TIME. So often, the dealer keeps three on the shelf, and an aftermarket company manufactures a preventive repair bracket for them and another aftermarket company sells pieces to rebuilt them. Oh, and it is 3.5hr labor to R&R one.

Let's not even go into any HPFP failures that immediately tooef all $2400 worth of fuel injectors, or intercoolers that randomly get so much water in them the engine's connecting rods bend suddenly when you go to start them up (you'll never, ever see a VE or PD TDI do that).

And I have never seen one of the earlier cars need a heater core EVERY YEAR because the EGR system superheats the coolant to the point that all the additives come out of suspension and clog them up! LMAO!!!

I don't have to paint a rosy picture of anything... I have it in vibrant living color in front of me EVERY DAY.
Tooef

hahahaha..... been a while since I heard that!!!

Steve
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
Borg-Warner is having some kind of serious production problem. Earlier this week I tried to re-order KP-39 turbos for BEW TDIs, and got a September ETA. I think that's optimistic. The CKRA turbo ETAs keep getting pushed, now they're August, I believe. We haven't had any since last October.
Everything that can be is being blamed on covids....stubbed your toe? covids, walked into the door?..covids.

Everything...

Steve
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I meant the labor hourly rate, not the time it takes to do the job. But you are correct in that the jobs can take longer for the newer vehicles. But the point was they (older models) also have issues and finding someone to work on it if you don't DIY or have a trusted mechanic nearby can also have its issues when trying to find and deal with a shop. If you can do the majority of your own diagnostic and work they are great cars.
I would have to say that unless you're prone to having vehicle issues then the reduced number of problems of the older models due to greater simplicity more than offsets the 'alleged' problem of finding someone to work on it added to the 'neediness' of the new generation of EPA 'inspired' cars.

I won't buy anything after the PD's for the very reasons that OH has mentioned above. In a nutshell, they're more hassle then they're worth, and the expense of repairs is so much higher that it more than offsets any efficiency benefit that might have been gained due to the diesel. That is unless you're the first owner and even then the time consumption of having to visit the dealership exists. I liken it to owners of EV's in Cali who are now going back to ICE because the time wasting of a charging station has gotten to be too much for them.

IMO

Steve
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I would have to say that unless you're prone to having vehicle issues then the reduced number of problems of the older models due to greater simplicity more than offsets the 'alleged' problem of finding someone to work on it added to the 'neediness' of the new generation of EPA 'inspired' cars.

I won't buy anything after the PD's for the very reasons that OH has mentioned above. In a nutshell, they're more hassle then they're worth, and the expense of repairs is so much higher that it more than offsets any efficiency benefit that might have been gained due to the diesel. That is unless you're the first owner and even then the time consumption of having to visit the dealership exists. I liken it to owners of EV's in Cali who are now going back to ICE because the time wasting of a charging station has gotten to be too much for them.

IMO

Steve
That is fine if you don't mind driving a twenty year old car (approx) with everything that goes with that. OH and IDParts and others like them excepted have special skills and parts at their beck and call and is much easier for them to have things done. Unless you are a DIY'er, paying someone to work on it will exceed it's value in no time and sometimes its personal worth. The older models are getting really long in the tooth now days and for the most part haven't been taken care of properly and are in need of much maintenance when they are bought. Most are sold with an overdue timing belt job right off the bat and the new owners are left trying to find someone capable to do it. Or broken already and the owner isn't prepared to repair it. Plenty of TB and fuel pump leaking problems to deal with along with all other used car issues. It is possible to find one in great condition but it will generally reflect that with a huge cost up front and will probably still need catchup maintenance. Once in good mechanical shape they do very well though. I wouldn't advise anyone who is new to this game and doesn't do their own work to buy one. I have a 1935 Ford that I maintain and there is almost no one to work on it. Fortunately it is very simple to work on and I do all my own work on it.

Sure the new ones are more expensive to repair, especially the emissions stuff, if out of warranty or you can't seem to get VW to make it right as they are required to do. But that kind of goes with all new cars now (expensive). Everyone has to make up their own mind what they are willing to do and what they are willing to pay others to do. Nothing against the older cars but they aren't the hands off cheap cars they are being made out to be here. It takes a lot of work to get them to that point in the first place for most of them. If you just want a running beater car then things are much simpler. If you want a nice looking well running car in tip top shape then much more money and time are required.

I have had my car and several other in to my dealer and so far there has been no "time consumption" on any repairs needed. Done in a timely manner and most under warranty and some Goodwill and some paid for. But that is just my experience and I realize there are others that haven't had the same experience.

Make your choice wisely based on info and then run with it.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
One thing that strikes me is that new cars aren't new for very long. One of my co-workers has a '15 Jetta, took delivery on it the same day I got my GSW in April of '17. He has about 90K on it now. He's had relatively few problems, other than it going through tires. He just turned 90K miles, and the car now has an intermittent fault that put it into limp mode on the highway. Could be a vacuum leak, worn turbo actuator, clogging DPF...not sure. But I imagine it'll take several trips to the dealer to get it sorted under warranty, or he can pay out of pocket to have a guru fix it, which might require far less effort.

Another co-worker has a '13 Golf with similar miles on it (I think) that has a DPF fault that the dealer says isn't happening, because they can make it go away with a forced regen. So he'll have to deal with the CEL and repeated trips to the dealer until they give in. My point? Even newer cars age and maintaining them also takes time and effort. And sometimes money.

My Wagon got new suspension,, brakes and tires this year. Last year it needed nearly nothing other than some rust repair. Year before it got an IP (leaking) and a timing belt a little early since the pump needed replacement. The 4 or 5 years prior to that, nearly nothing. I drive this car 22-23K annually, have since 2002. Any car driven that many miles is going to have stuff wear out. And a newer car driven that much will depreciate like crazy. Mine was fully depreciated years ago.

The old saw about repairs exceeding the value of the car is false logic, in my opinion. Right now my son's '02 Golf with 415K probably needs a turbo (original) and may need a head refresh. Who would drop a couple grand on a car that old with that many miles? If he sold it he might get 1 or 1.5K for it. Add the 2K in repairs, what can he buy for that? And whatever he does will need repairs, too. Sometimes spending more on the car than it's worth is the best option.
 

gearheadgrrrl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
The fantasy that a two decade old car is better than a new one because they don't make it anymore is just that, a fantasy. Took my '03 Golf out for a midnight drive the other night to test out the aftermarket Taiwanese headlights that I finally was able to get to fit and sorta work. The lighting was an improvement over the faded original lights, but not as good as the originals. The new struts and springs are nice and firm, maybe a bit too firm, but 155k miles wear on the steering bits still shows. After repeated attempts at bleeding and over a gallon of brake fluid the brakes are better, but I doubt the old '03 will stop as short as the '15 Golf did last week to avoid a deer. The air conditioning doesn't work, the headliner is starting to sag, the hole in the rocker panel grows, and the gurus tell me I'm supposed to spend a nice summer replacing a timing belt with only 55K on it because it's 10 years old. Despite spending a couple thousand in parts on this '03 in the last couple years the '15 is clearly superior, I'm cutting my losses and saving the '03 as a spare I'll probably never need and driving the '15.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I had $6500 into a 2003 Beetle I bought for $1400 with a broken timing belt. Almost all of the rebuild work done by Robby and ANut here in Austin. I did most of the interior myself. It was a very nice Beetle. ANut really liked it too. After they left though I kept having some issues and finding someone to work on it that was competent and knew these cars was problematic at best and very expensive from the mechanics I got estimates from. About that time the stop sale cars came out and I got my 2015 Beetle brand new. Sold the old one. I have had zero issues with it and my daughter and EX have 2015 Passat tdi sel's. Ex totaled hers recently but had no issues. Daughter still has hers and the only trouble was the water pump going out (squeaking). With my talking to the SA she got a complete timing belt service for $480 IIRC and VWoA Goodwill as it was just out of CPO warranty and 85k miles

I have had less trouble with anything with the new Beetle vs my 2003 after Robby and ANut left. But I monitor mine (regens with VAGDPF) and I think that helps, plus what I have learned here about all of them.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
The fantasy that a two decade old car is better than a new one because they don't make it anymore is just that, a fantasy. Took my '03 Golf out for a midnight drive the other night to test out the aftermarket Taiwanese headlights that I finally was able to get to fit and sorta work. The lighting was an improvement over the faded original lights, but not as good as the originals. The new struts and springs are nice and firm, maybe a bit too firm, but 155k miles wear on the steering bits still shows. After repeated attempts at bleeding and over a gallon of brake fluid the brakes are better, but I doubt the old '03 will stop as short as the '15 Golf did last week to avoid a deer. The air conditioning doesn't work, the headliner is starting to sag, the hole in the rocker panel grows, and the gurus tell me I'm supposed to spend a nice summer replacing a timing belt with only 55K on it because it's 10 years old. Despite spending a couple thousand in parts on this '03 in the last couple years the '15 is clearly superior, I'm cutting my losses and saving the '03 as a spare I'll probably never need and driving the '15.
I don't think anywhere in here anyone said, "The fantasy that a two decade old car is better than a new one because they don't make it anymore is just that, a fantasy." Or if they did you should have quoted that text....that's not what I said or alluded to in my post. In particular the bolded part.

What I will say though is that if I have to pay the bills for the service work (or do it myself) on any car then it'll be the two decade old (actually 25 year old) 97 Jetta tdi that I've had since 2002. And I'll just do it myself actually.

For a couple thousand dollars in parts I can completely renew every bit of that suspension, engine maintenance etc and come away with something that will last 50k miles before needing any attention besides oil changes and maybe tires.

As others have said, make your choice wisely, and I think that's what I've done, and I don't fault anyone for buying a new car or even a newer used car if they want to, but that's their choice as well, and they have to live with the consequences too.

I see fewer consequences in the repair of a 20 year old car (knowing what I know now) than I do in buying a 5 year old TDI, in fact I wouldn't do it. If the choice was a 5 year old TDI or something else (EV or hybrid excluded) Then I would chose something else. I'm not willing to go down that road.

Steve
 

gearheadgrrrl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
Again, I hear the myth that the ol' diesel is superior "'cause 'missions and all that stuff". Often this is just an excuse because the owner can't afford or get financed for a new vehicle and unfortunately has to pay credit card interest rates to continually repair a decades old vehicle that in a normal economy would have been scrapped long ago. Fact is, the big fleets have large samples of cars and know down to hundredths of cents per mile how much they cost to run... And they seldom keep a vehicle over a decade old unless they're in financial trouble.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
When it comes to simplicity, fuel economy, and cost of operations, old diesel is better. That's why there's been such a rush of people buying gliders in the over the road trucking community. There are endless articles and videos out there where operators complain about the ongoing issues they have with emissions systems on new trucks. I'm not advocating older ones because the emissions the create are real, but they are more reliable.

Maintaining my old TDI isn't cheap, but it is cheaper than the depreciation on a newer car. And I probably do have more minor, wear-related problems than I would with a newer car. But driving home from work last night the low fuel light came on in my wagon, at 764 miles. There isn't a new diesel out there (or any other car, for that matter) that will do that.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Some of us are lucky enough to drive a fantasy every day, we take it for granted. We take for granted that it'll tag 45+ MPG without trying, is unlikely to break down, and has no wallet crushing things anywhere within its meager collection of parts.

And FWIW, there are NO new diesel Volkswagens in the USA. There haven't been for a half decade now. NONE of them are "new", and with rare exception, almost all of them have either a lot of miles already piled on them, or sat for 18+ months in some varying state of high moisture, high rodent populated state of decay and neglect, and now those issues are showing in spades.

Most people that buy TDIs buy them because (news flash!) they drive a LOT. Sure, there are some garage queens, but not a whole lot.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
A lot of people buy them because they are/were selling for cheap after Dieselgate. From the posts here they know almost nothing about them but the rumors they can get 50+ mpg out of them without fail. They are disappointed that they don't get that and are surprised when they discover all the specialty items that they need to have. They almost all know nothing about the Extended Emissions warranty either based on the questions here. Also from the posts here they know nothing about the regen process that is needed to keep the car healthy. Hence the issues they encounter when they are short tripping and not driving any distance. In my opinion this is what causes the most issues with the new cars. Owners that are totally ignorant about the car they bought. If you bought a buyback car without having it fully serviced properly before the sale, then you did yourself a disservice. Throw in a required TB change and they are fed up and selling usually. Owners that have some knowledge of them do much better than the average person.

The old cars are great if you can find one in excellent shape and can do at least some of the work yourself, saving the major stuff for a trusted mechanic. If you aren't a DIY'er, willing to learn or have a reasonable trusted mechanic near you then they probably aren't for you. The headaches of finding someone to work on it is as bad as getting the dealer to fix stuff (assuming your dealer isn't up to snuff). I loved the older models I have owned (several alh's) as well as the newer ones 2013 Passat and now 2015 Beetle. I must be the only one with decent dealer service dept as everyone else seems to just be complaining about theirs.

Buy an old one if you like and fix it up. Buy a newer one and get it fixed up. Mine was brand new at purchase and serviced just before the sale to me. I am happy with the new Beetle. Either way when either one is in good repair, they make excellent cars especially if you do lots of driving. Driving it as a city car will net you problems if you don't actually take an interest in letting the regens complete when needed. Neither will get good mileage if used in town for city driving. It won't be bad but it won't be 50+mpg either. Look at Andy's threads about all the wild ideas he has trying to get high mileage economy out of one. He isn't alone out there either.

Look how many people can't even bother to read the manual for which oil to use. That is probably the most asked question here and it is in print right in the manual.
 
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Ovrhill

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Location
Haltom City, Texas
TDI
'06 Golf TDI, '15 Golf TDI(sold), '05 Golf TDI (wrecked)
Looks like this thread got a little off topic really quick but I'll chime in.

I just sold my 15 Golf back to a local dealershiip. Had it almost two years and sold it for $200 less than I paid for it CPO.

I loved the car for the most part. But, honestly I was always a little freaked out about what might or would go wrong down the road. Just didnt want to have to deal with it at any point.

I've owned and driven A4 cars since '05 and have learned to DIY lots of work on those cars over time. I don't drive as much now to really justify a need for diesel. But, I still love the way these cars feel with my foot on the pedal and I'll continue to drive them as long as parts are available.
 

gearheadgrrrl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
A lot of the emissions systems problems with newer diesels are self inflicted- Guys buying too big an engine, running it up against the governor all the time, and too much idling, followed by deferred maintainence, then they're surprised they're having big repair bills. The folks that are taking proper care of the new diesels are getting incredible MPGs and their maintenance costs haven't increased much. Gliders are disappearing- Every time I priced one out they were no cheaper than a new truck, the only good reason for buying one was to get configurations like a cabover with sleeper you couldn't get in a new truck. And once you get a glider together, what have you got- A new cab and frame with a two decade old engine that's on it's 2nd rebuild, same with the drivetrain, and you're missing out on 21st century safety features like Stability Control- Heck, some of them don't even have functional ABS!

Same deal with A4s, Cummins 12 valves, and all the other cult old diesels- Great vehicles in their time, but now two decades old and in most cases showing it. A good deal if you can find a low mileage one from somewhere they don't have salt, otherwise you're just pouring money into a car that's slowly turning into a pile of rust.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I bet you're right about maintenance and trucks. One of our suppliers worked for Navistar when the they released the 6.0 for Fords, and one of the biggest challenges they had was getting fleet operators to follow the maintenance schedule instead of treating like they did their old 7.3s. For example, they were changing oil based on miles traveled, and in NYC an ambulance spends most of its time idling. If you adjust the maintenance schedule to be based on hours instead of miles, the service intervals are far more frequent, but the engines have fewer problems.

For what it's worth, a 2015 is no longer a new car, either. And the screen on mine died last month. Not sure what that's going to cost to replace.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
Again, I hear the myth that the ol' diesel is superior "'cause 'missions and all that stuff". Often this is just an excuse because the owner can't afford or get financed for a new vehicle and unfortunately has to pay credit card interest rates to continually repair a decades old vehicle that in a normal economy would have been scrapped long ago. Fact is, the big fleets have large samples of cars and know down to hundredths of cents per mile how much they cost to run... And they seldom keep a vehicle over a decade old unless they're in financial trouble.
I would take it as a personal favor if you would cease with the rube / country hick treatment (bolded above), it's undeserved and tiring, and it's misplaced especially coming from someone in MN flyover country. I being in Iowa claim equal footing with anyone in MN who wishes to play that game.

Car makers (in particular) will finance anyone now...literally anything that has a pulse, because...you guessed it, they've figured out that they can actually make more on the financing side of the equation vs the vehicle itself. As such, the average price of a new vehicle is now above $40k (yes some of us pay attention to that) and in addition they're financing now, 84, 96 and 108 months on new vehicle purchases.

Now, given your complaint about, "Often this is just an excuse because the owner can't afford or get financed for a new vehicle," I ask you, who do you think is the smart one for buying a new vehicle and financing it out 84-108 months? Remember now, this is a depreciable asset, a consumable, there's no increasing in value to any part of it ever, and up to 40% is gone the minute you drive it off the lot...yet the debt remains....who is the smart one?

People who finance consumption are idiots. Aside from the house which is almost a requisite borrowing situation, there's no need EVER to borrow to buy something that you consume. Yet we see this all the time and everywhere today as debts mount (consumer credit is extraordinarily high right now) and old auto loans are yet again being rolled over and financed to fit the same payment. These loans will never be paid off.....

Aside from the house, and in some cases you can buy a house without financing...I did on my last one and I'm poor, borrowing is a suckers game and if you're borrowing to buy a vehicle, a case can be made that you can't afford it...and why? Because you're spending from the future, that's why, and the future is uncertain. And every time you drag consumption from the future into the present there's less and less you'll have in the future to spend later on. The best way to say it is - if you spend all you'll ever earn in the here and now by borrowing, there won't be anything in the future to retire on, and with people buying cars / trucks between $40k-$90k (yes trucks cost upwards of $90k now) that's a chunk of change from the future that you wont have. And we already have a problem in this country with people now trying to retire with debt...and it can't be done.

So pardon me if my "hick / rube / country bumpkin" side 1) is willing to spend a couple grand to fully renew a suspension and 2) just make it a policy not to borrow to buy consumables....yes I know that a whole bunch of people do, but it's a known bad decision if you do, and no I don't have any CC's because well, they encourage that sort of crap AND because the purchase decisions with cash are a lot more important and different than if you just drop a piece of plastic on the counter. Yet I wouldn't expect you to know or understand consumer behavior, but I do.

So...I think I've made a sufficient case that thoroughly debunks your comments above, but if you want a new car go right ahead and borrow your way to prosperity, it seems to be the prevalent theme in the US now from government on down the line to consumers. But you'll pardon me if I don't participate and if I take exception to comments about not being able to borrow, I chose not to borrow. If I wanted a new car I could buy it, but it would be in cash, but I have no intention of plunking down $40k on some dealership counter for anything...it's not necessary, but I could if I wanted to, but I value my money more than most people I think.

Steve
 

gearheadgrrrl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
Steve, surprisingly I think a lot like you...

Day after I graduated high school in 1968 I got a dream job running cars and parts at a Chevy dealer that sold a lot of Vettes and trucks. Couldn't figure out why they wanted me to get a Chauffeurs license, but it was paper and easily modified to make me drinking age so I didn't complain. 2nd day on the job they "taught" me how to drive truck. Sold tires and such at a Sears auto center for a year then a year running more cars and parts for a Mercury/English Ford dealer. Dropped out, went to college, then got a summer job driving truck for a bakery in '78 and stayed 'til '92. Temped at UPS and USPS 'til I got on full time at USPS 'til I retired in '05, temped a couple more "peak seasons" at UPS before I started drawing my Teamster pension in '08.

Despite earning union scale and benefits I kept to my college student budget, bought and financed my first new Golf diesel in '78 and in '84 bought a share in a co-op apartment building and became a homeowner. Bought more new Golf diesels in '86,'03,'13, and '17 interrupted by a Ranger pickup in '97 because I was hauling a lot of building materials to fix up the house in da "hood I inherited from Grandma in '96. Bought a $200k house in a small town for $40k in 2010 and bought out my two brothers share of mom's mobile home in Florida for $10k, took a $5k loss selling it in 2019 but got 10 winters use of it for that $5k. Other than the '15 that was financed for a couple weeks to get a $5k rebate and the '78, all were bought cash. Other than my share of the loan on the co-op apartment I've never had a home loan. Was unemployed a few times but never broke, my living expenses were less than my unemployment benefits and I had reserves if the unemployment ran out.

So despite buying a new car an average of every 8 years I'm debt free, looking at acquiring a winter home a days drive south of Minnesota, and considering splurging $45k on a Golf8 R, and I can buy both cash. How did I pull that off? I paid about half that inflation adjusted $40k median new car price and bargain shopped for cars and everything else while maxing out my IRA and 401K investments in the stock market every year. So yes, you can buy new cars and stay outa debt. But there is a limit to thriftiness- Was just out trying to hammer the ball joints outa the 24 year old Ranger I've got all taken apart, all I accomplished was making my back sorer. No 24 year old pickup is worth wrecking your back for...
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I too am debt free and have taught my kids that borrowing money is a modern form of slavery. I bought my Beetle new with the zero percent loan offered. I only did that so I could keep my own money invested and use theirs for free. Paid off now. I have been debt free for nearly a decade now. Idiots buy cars with loans longer than 36 months and/or high interest rates. If you can't pay it off in three years you are spending too much and need to find something cheaper. When my oldest daughter got her first car ($400 Saturn) I told her to save what would have been her car payment for repairs and/or her next car. She drove that 2 1/2 years and then sold it for $1700 and took some of the saved money and bought another one for cash. She repeated this several times now over the years and is now able to buy new for cash, if she wants to. If you finance things that aren't mandatory for living then your life will just be working and paying and at the end you will have nothing but a bunch of broken down junk. Most people just need transportation but they buy way, way more than they actually need.

My step daughter long ago wrecked hers and needed something now. I usually keep an extra vehicle around for such occasions and such and gave her a Honda for $500. Not 2 days later she had it traded in on something else and in debt for big bucks at 17% interest. Not the best move in my opinion but lots of people do that kind of thing.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I'm about to do some work to my 25 year old truck... I may be sore afterwards, but I hope not. Ford can't sell me a new one like my '96, and I'm not about to pay $28k (literally DOUBLE what my '96 was) to get something I know 100% for certain without a shadow of doubt won't hold up as well in the long run.

I just did $2100 worth of work to a 2006 Toyota Sienna with 330k miles on the clock. My sister's. It is near perfect. Still. It got timing belt replacement #3, radiator replacement #2 (common issue on the Sienna), and rear springs (another common issue, somehow hers made it longer than most). She could go and buy a new Sienna for cash if she wanted to (she really could, she could write a $40k check... but she couldn't do that if she hadn't driven and taken care of the 2006 that she already has).

Different things work, I guess, for different people. But I am with Steve in that if you have to go eyeballs deep in debt to afford something, you really cannot afford it.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I too have a 1994 Ford F150 6 cyl 5 speed. Got it for $1200. Sunk about $1500 into it fixing mostly cosmetic things (sun damage) and services. Seldom used but always handy to have around for things. Those 6 cylinders are also know to go on forever, but poor economy. It does do the job though and then some. New cars are too expensive and I will probably never buy another new one again after the 2015 Beetle. Wanted it to be my retirement car and it should last long enough for that hopefully and the warranty for me has been one of the major things in its favor when I bought it for $21k discounted after dieselgate.
 
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