BioDiesel TDi emissions vs comparable Gas Engines

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
What happens when you put Sunfuel in a railcar and ship it halfway across the country

[/ QUOTE ]

They aren't going to ship it in railcars.
They are going to use the same pipeline system as petroleum.
Something that cannot be done with biodiesel.

Sunfuel
Infrastructure
"As a first step SunFuel® will be offered as a diesel fuel. This SunFuel® uses the same infrastructure as conventional mineral oil fuels. It can be used as an alternative to diesel fossil fuel without having to tune the engine.
Using SunFuel® immediately provides a major contribution to reducing CO2 levels pollutant emissions (in particular particles) at the same time."

Fischer-Tropsch type diesel fuels are great.
This is what the equivelent would be......

Gem SynDiesel
Syndiesel (R) Synthetic Diesel Fuel/Additive. 63 Cetane Number, 20,300 Btu/pound, for European (MB & TDi) and other High Performance Diesel Engines and Standby Diesel Generators. Specific Sins: Eliminates SMOKE, quiets engine, sulfur free, reduces exhaust temperatures, stops detonation, quick power response - NO hesitation, pleasant 'candy' smell, no more gums, no sludge. No Oxidation - It will last for ten years in storage. Fuel stays clear and bright. Best of all the GEL POINT is -67F - perfect for standby or emergency generator fuel supply. Perfect for cold weather applications or winterizing a diesel engine powerplant.
------------------------------------------------------------

Very high 63 cetane, will not oxidize, GEL POINT is -67F !
The shelf life is 10 years.
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
Typically B2 adds about 2 cents per gallon. A 6% improvement at $1.50 a gallon is a 9 cent a gallon improvement...so, buying B2 will save an operator a nickel a gallon.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be on to something.
Since they are always looking to improve mileage in this country it could work. And even the "other" guys, the CNG crowd, predicted that bio-fuels would reach a 5% market share by 2015. This would be a way to do it. Get all of the refiners to use it as a lubricity additive like CENEX does and then it would take off like ethanol is replacing MTBE.
 

bean boy

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MITBeta you might be interested in this article Shell and Volkswagen launch trial of synthetic natural gas fuel from the 5/03 issue of Cannadian Driver.

The article says [ QUOTE ]
fuelled by "Shell Gas to Liquids", a unique synthetic fuel derived from natural gas

[/ QUOTE ]

It appears the Sunfuel is made from cng at this time, but they go one to say [ QUOTE ]
Shell is also investing in research to develop new processes to make transportation fuels from biomass sources in a cost-effective and sustainable manner. One possible route is the gasification of biomass, followed by a "Gas to Liquids" process to give a SunFuel product identical to "Shell Gas to Liquids" fuel. Although it is too early to say if or when the Bio-GTL process will become commercially viable, it offers an intriguing insight into how GTL might facilitate the transition to using renewable primary energy sources to produce transportation fuels.
Shell's synthetic fuel based on natural gas fits perfectly into Volkswagen's stated drive and fuel strategy. "This could be an important step towards a hydrogen fuel cell," said Wolfgang Steiger, Head of Research Energy Conversion Combustion Engines at Volkswagen. "In the longer term, the feedstock for such a synthetic fuel could be bio-mass which would have the benefit of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. The name Sunfuel would be justified ."

[/ QUOTE ]

In the vw link about sunfuels Fuel Strategy: Designer Fuel The site talks about Sunfuel as if it is actually produced from biomass now, but then they say [ QUOTE ]
As a first step SunFuel® will be offered as a diesel fuel.

[/ QUOTE ], which sounds like its not yet being produced (their site shows as last updated 26-August-2002.

It sounds like an evolution in the existing biodiesel, if and when it comes on line. But in the mean time....
 

Geordi

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What I love is the "features" of these synthetic diesel fuels:
[ QUOTE ]
Eliminates SMOKE, quiets engine, sulfur free, reduces exhaust temperatures, stops detonation, quick power response - NO hesitation

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, if you stop detonation, you just stopped the engine. Diesel explosions ARE detonation. Detonation is caused by the spontaneous ignition of fuel under extreme pressure and heat. Water is also an excellent fuel to STOP detonation, as there is guaranteed to be no detonation at all with lots of water in there. *duh*

As for the rest, My car doesn't smoke, I use Biodiesel. It doesn't smoke on regular diesel either, and it is MUCH quieter than any other diesel engine and almost as quiet as my V8 Mark VII when running Bio. Sulfur free? Yup, got that. Reduced exhaust temps? Well now, turn down the Turbo, and the temps will drop too. Quick power / no hesitation? I don't see any of that from my car, Bio or dino D. Maybe they are doing something wrong or have a crappy test car? My car has lots of power, and I get it as fast as I want it.

This is Biodiesel with just a different production method, and if they are trying to make it from CNG, that is only trading one evil fuel baron for another. As for "shipping it in pipelines, not railcars"... Yea, right. Know how the petroleum products get to Florida? Easy: BIG TANKERS that sail into the Port of Jacksonville and Ft Lauderdale, off-load their stuff into holding tanks, which then fill tank trucks for local delivery (radius about 120 miles) AND RAILCARS. LOTS of railcars.

Why don't you show us a link to a map of the nationwide network of pipes that deliver finished Diesel NOW, to local distribution points? Or maybe those pipes only deliver crude TO the refineries, which then use RAILCARS to ship OUT to the distro points.

Play it again Sam.
--Jim
 

MITBeta

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[ QUOTE ]
They aren't going to ship it in railcars.
They are going to use the same pipeline system as petroleum.
Something that cannot be done with biodiesel.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif
 

Wally

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Could you (autodeiesel) expand on that one that MITBeta just pointed out? I don't get that one.

I also forgot to point out earlier that France already legistlates B3 and Minesota either already does or is about require B2-5.

Midwest states from ohio to iowa have required a certain percentage of ethanol in gasoine for years already to support the corn growers. Now the same thing is being done for soy growers and if that's how it starts it doesn't much matter-because it has started.

Those are facts. As for predictions, I think we'll see the B% rise as:
1) Petro becomes more scarce
2) Prices of petro continue to rise (same as one really)
3) More automakers produce Diesel cars (which also happen along with #'s 1 and 2)

PS-I have gotten a hold of the guy mentioned earlier and we are in the midst of working out the details. I will post when we have the test scheduled and then I will post the results. No matter what the results, they will be better than burning than dino-diesel and I'd bet better than gas.
 

Davin

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You might be interested in the testing that Joe Rappa did with his 99 Golf, comparing diesel and biodiesel emissions. I think he focused on NOx. Try a search.
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
MITBeta said:
[ QUOTE ]
They aren't going to ship it in railcars.
They are going to use the same pipeline system as petroleum.
Something that cannot be done with biodiesel.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

Huh what?
1) That no one transports B100 in pipelines?

2) Or that SunFuel can be?

If the first.......

In warm weather it could work.
But in Cold weather, well.....
Biodiesel Handling and Use Guidelines
Pure biodiesel is difficult to ship in cold weather. In the winter, most biodiesel is shipped
one of three ways:
 hot in tank cars for immediate delivery,
 frozen in tank cars equipped with steam coils (the tank cars are melted at the final
destination with steam),
 in 20% blends with available winter diesel, or
 in a 50% blend with diesel No. 1 (kerosene). A 50:50 blend of soy biodiesel and kerosene has a pour point of 0oF in most cases.
------------------------------------------------------------
So if you want a mix it would be fine. If you want B100, forget it.

If the second......

Infrastructure
"This SunFuel® uses the same infrastructure as conventional mineral oil fuels."
 

AutoDiesel

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posted by Geordi 01JetTDI


[/ QUOTE ] Ok, if you stop detonation, you just stopped the engine. Diesel explosions ARE detonation. Detonation is caused by the spontaneous ignition of fuel under extreme pressure and heat. Water is also an excellent fuel to STOP detonation, as there is guaranteed to be no detonation at all with lots of water in there. *duh*

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you were kidding when you posted this.
"Detonation" is not considered a good thing with diesels.

Condition Monitoring for Diesel Engines

Detonation
Detonation is indicated by a high maximum pressure, well above the average peak firing pressure. Detonation occurs if fuel is improperly dispensed (as droplets rather than a mist) into the cylinder. The droplets ignite, causing a longer-than-usual delay period followed by a rapid rise in cylinder pressure. Detonation may also occur if fuel injector timing is too far advanced.
The maximum pressure (Pmax) will increase to levels significantly higher than normal while the angle of maximum pressure (qPmax) angle is early. The piston may also impact the cylinder liner at the point of maximum cylinder pressure, causing a vibration spike to occur at the same location.

Highly loaded cylinders in an unbalanced engine are more susceptible to detonation. Detonation can lead to rapid catastrophic failure. In addition, unbalanced engines produce higher exhaust emissions.
------------------------------------------------------------
Detonation can lead to rapid catastrophic failure.
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you show us a link to a map of the nationwide network of pipes that deliver finished Diesel NOW, to local distribution points? Or maybe those pipes only deliver crude TO the refineries, which then use RAILCARS to ship OUT to the distro points.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm a little slow tonite.
You thought I was saying they are "only" going to ship by pipeline. Not quite.
The primary system for transporting fuels over longer distances in the U.S. is by a pipeline system.
Just because Florida isn't part of it.
Well, that's Florida for ya.

The point is it doesn't matter what method is used for transporting SunFuel. If petroleum diesel uses it so can SunFuel. Not the case with B100.
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you show us a link to a map of the nationwide network of pipes that deliver finished Diesel NOW, to local distribution points?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.

" Most gasoline and diesel fuel supplies are delivered to the marketplace by pipelines - from refineries to local distribution centers. Tanker trucks carry gasoline only the last few miles of the trip to individual service stations. Major American airports rely almost entirely on pipelines, and have dedicated pipelines to deliver jet fuel directly to the airport."

At this site there is a neat little video of the 200,000 mile pipeline system in the U.S.
Maybe you can learn a little more about the system.

pipeline 101 - Introduction

Yep, Florida is not part of the pipeline system.
It only has a couple of very small systems.
And lots of railcars as you say. Just not the rest of the country.
 

DrStink

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[ QUOTE ]
Geordi 01JetTDI said:


The mystery of why gas cars are "cleaner" than diesel is a simple one: They aren't. BUT people wrongly THINK they are, because they simply can't SEE the exhaust from the family SUV. Beyond that, Diesel will ALWAYS produce less emission per mile driven, because simply LESS of it is used when compared between the same vehicles with different engines.

--Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I must disagree completely. Gasoline cars are much cleaner than diesel....when you define clean the way the government does. I love my TDI, but sucessful advocacy requireds, no, demands, full disclosure of the drawbacks as well as the benefits. Picking and choosing which stats you want to talk about is intellectually disingenuous and is a disservice to diesel advocates everywhere.

Anyway, enough about advocacy, let us get back to the question of emissions. The single largest advantage of diesels in the increased fuel mileage over gasoline. The less petrochemicals you put in, less CO2 comes out the tailpipe. However, the EPA does not consider CO2 to be a pollutant. Thus, the single greatest environmental benefit of a TDI over a gasser is never considered in the overall EPA green vehicle score. Conversely, TDIs emit *far* more smog forming chemicals than a comparable gasser.

As I said on the No TDIs in the Northeast thread:
[ QUOTE ]
While you are probably right that TDIs are actually better for the environment given the overall mix and amount of gasses actually coming out the tailpipe, TDIs will always score poorly on the emissions in the US because of the way the standards are written. That is, because air quality standards in the US focus on smog (unburned HC's and NOx) rather than greenhouse gases (CO2), diesels will always look dirtier than gasoline engines.

Thus, the EPA will rate a GMC Yukon that emits 30 lbs of smog forming chemicals per 15k miles and 12.2 tons of CO2 a year as cleaner than a Jetta TDI that emits 50 lbs of smog forming chemicals per 15k miles and 4.7 tons of CO2 a year. As I said before, CO2 is *not* considered a pollutant in the US. Before anyone immediately blames big oil, remember that smog has a short term easily observable impact on public health whereas CO2 has long term environmental consequences that are harder to quantify. Hopefully, you can see why people historically were willing to address NOx while ignoring CO2.

Of course, the Sierra Club would probably prefer we ditch our TDIs for a ULEV rated Honda HX that emits about 10 lbs of smog forming chemicals per 15k miles and 4.9 tons of CO2 a year. And if you include the Civic Hybrid in the mix, you keep the smog forming chemicals the same and drop the greenhouse gases even lower, down to 4.1 tons a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyway, if we compare a Jetta TDI to a Jetta 2.0, we find that the 2.0 puts out one fifth of the smog forming chemicals of the TDI (10 lbs vs. 50 lbs of smog forming chemicals per 15k miles). Of course, the TDI still wins on CO2 (4.7 tons vs. 7.1 tons per year)

Now, *if* you run your TDI on biodiesel, you can feel a little better as your unburned HC emissions are way down compared to petrodiesel. However, your NOx levels are still very high due to the higher combustion temp in a diesel engine.

So in summary, the TDIs are better than a 2.0 in global pollution (CO2) but worse in local pollution (smog). If the enviroment was really your foremost concern, you'd ditch the TDI for a Civic HX. However, if you choose to balance environmental concerns with national security and geopolitical issues, a TDI running a BD blend isn't a bad place to start.
 

MITBeta

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While it's true that biodiesel has poor cold weather properties, it should be pointed out that so does crude oil. I wonder how they manage to keep crude oil flowing across 600 miles of tundra.....

[ QUOTE ]
2) Or that SunFuel can be?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the full text of the "Infrastructure" blurb:

[ QUOTE ]
Infrastructure
As a first step SunFuel® will be offered as a diesel fuel. This SunFuel® uses the same infrastructure as conventional mineral oil fuels. It can be used as an alternative to diesel fossil fuel without having to tune the engine.
Using SunFuel® immediately provides a major contribution to reducing CO2 levels pollutant emissions (in particular particles) at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's quite a stretch to think that infrastructure necessarily means pipelines. But let's assume that it does. Are we going to build a parallel pipeline system to transport Sunfuel, or are we going to simply pick a day and stop the flow of diesel fuel altogether in favor of Sunfuel?

Whatever your answer is, the same can be said for biodiesel.

[ QUOTE ]
The point is it doesn't matter what method is used for transporting SunFuel. If petroleum diesel uses it so can SunFuel. Not the case with B100.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
Whatever your answer is, the same can be said for biodiesel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I'll agree that the same can be said for B20.

B100 though, not going to happen.

There's a lot more to it than thermal heating for cold weather.
 

RichC

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Interesting discussion. Usually I follow the principle 'don't speak' if I don't have a thoughful answer ... BUT I feel like sticking my foot in my mouth today. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ships run Brent Crude (thick as paste) and pump under pressure from fuel barges all the time. They run it in their diesel after heating to make it liquid. Ever stand on the stern of a ship running Brent Crude? The ash is everywhere. Point? None. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

On the Biodiesel TDI / Gasser comparison: I all depends what you measure and how the emissions are weighted. If NOx is what you are weighing heavily ... then the BD TDI / mile loses to the Gasser ... if you weigh all other emissions excluding NOx / mile ... the the BD TDI wins. Put all the measured emissions together and the debate rages on.
 

AutoDiesel

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Pacific Northwest
Thermal heating of crude oil is very common to allow it to move through pipelines efficiently.
That is only one issue to consider.

Unless you are going to replace a specific pipeline system or build one for only biodiesel the current system will not transport biodiesel through the pipeline system.

They are having enough concerns considering the transport of ULSD.
ULSD right now isn't distributed by pipeline for the same reasons.
That will have to change in the future by 2006.


Impact of the ULSD Rule on Oil Pipelines

"Product pipelines routinely transport various grades of
motor gasoline, diesel fuel, and aircraft turbine fuel in
the same physical pipeline.
At the interface of two batches in a pipeline, some (but
relatively little) mixing occurs. As a guide to understanding
the volume of interface generated, it would be
typical for 150 barrels of mixed material (“transmix”) to
be generated in a 10-inch pipeline over a shipment distance
of 100 miles. The hydraulic flow in a pipeline is
also a crucial determinant of the amount of mixing that
occurs. “Turbulent flow,” as occurs in most pipelines,
minimizes the generation of interface. Operations that
require the flow to stop and start generate the most interface
material.
The composition of the mixed (or interface) material
reflects the two materials from which it is derived. While
it does not conform to any standard petroleum product
specification or composition, it is not lost or wasted. For
interface material resulting from adjacent batches of different
grades of the same product, such as mid-grade
and regular gasoline, the mixture typically is blended
into the lower grade. This “downgrading” reduces the
volume of the higher quality product and increases the
volume of the lower quality product.
Another concern is that a protective cut, when it can be
calibrated using real-world experience, may require a
large volume downgrade. The conventional approach is
to buffer distillate products against other distillate products
to facilitate blending, as noted in the previous discussion.
A batch of 500 ppm diesel might be wrapped
between a batch of 2,000 ppm jet fuel and a batch of dye
non-road distillate fuel oil (heating oil) at 3,000 to 5,000
ppm. Thus, the product with the sulfur restriction (500
ppm diesel) is wrapped by a product with four times the
sulfur (2,000 ppm jet fuel), and by a product with six to
eight times the sulfur (3,000 to 5,000 ppm heating oil). In
practice, the current highway diesel is usually considerably
less than the 500 ppm limitation (300 ppm would not be uncommon). Under these circumstances, it is relatively
unlikely that chance contamination could move
the diesel from 300 ppm to nonconforming status at
more than 500 ppm.
The current situation, however, contrasts significantly to
the ULSD situation. ULSD (15 ppm) may be adjacent to
jet fuel at 2,000 ppm, 133 times the ULSD sulfur concentration,
or to heating oil at 3,000 to 5,000 ppm, 200 to 300
times the ULSD concentration. In this case, a tiny contamination
will move the ULSD batch to nonconforming
status. According to one of the AOPL/API respondents,
“. . . a 0.15 percent contamination (15 bbls in 10,000 bbls)
of [heating oil] in ULSD will raise the sulfur level by 3
ppm . . . .” According to another, “. . . the [heating oil] at
2000 ppm can contaminate the ULSD at levels as low as
0.22 percent.”79 In combination with the concerns raised
about the sulfur trailback, the issue of the volume necessary for the protective cut is another significant uncertainty in the handling of ULSD."
------------------------------------------------------------

So open your pocketbooks and support a new biodiesel pipeline system.

Like I said. More to it than just thermal heating of the product.

There is a big difference between "it can" and "it will".
 

LWB053

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OK, might as well add some fuel to this discussion.

[/begin soapbox rant]
Here's my perspective....earlier it was posted that the smoke we see isn't the problem with diesel, etc, etc. I beg to differ.

Why is diesel so poorly accepted here in North America? 2 reasons:

1) American automakers' diesel car offerings of the 70's are still fresh in our minds

2) Every time you drive behind a nice old Mercedes 300D, you see the ass of it covered in soot (why do they always seem to be white cars in the first place??) and belching gobs of black crap out the back...

THESE are the 2 reasons mainstream America won't accept diesels, except in niche roles. While we can't erase the memories of the early American attempts at family diesels, we can get rid of the common perception that diesel is "dirty". (Well, until that guy in the hopped up Cummins starts smoking out Grandma in her Civic at the stop light.)

NOW, if we can raise popular acceptance of diesel engines, it becomes more lucrative for car makers to supply diesel engines. The result of this is more diesels on the road, meaning the EPA steps in to get the fuel suppliers to provide better products for the consumer. But right now, the fuel suppliers have no motivation to supply NA with low sulphur, or aggressively research (spelled, "spend money on") alternatives like bio products.

Let's face it, America is far too dependant on diesel for it to be outlawed...trucking, shipping, railroads, agriculture, any one of which probably produces more diesel emission in NA right now than all the diesel road cars combined...and they all owe at least some of their profitability to diesel. But, until Honda and Mercedes and VW can see a profit in selling diesels here, I'm afraid all we'll see is a "token effort" on the part of the fuel suppliers.


[/end soapbox rant]

Whew! That was fun.
Keith
 

testy_SOB

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[ QUOTE ]
So in summary, the TDIs are better than a 2.0 in global pollution (CO2) but worse in local pollution (smog).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... I always want to listen to the Tree Huggers so with my TDI I AM Thinking Globally (lower CO2) and Acting Locally (NOx 'em)!!!!
 

testy_SOB

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[ QUOTE ]
...all testing with biodiesel has been done with heavy duty truck engines. Their emission cycles are much different than light duty diesels.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's this about??? I don't want to get in a pissin' match over this but most if not all of the innovations in Diesel technologies have come from MANN, Cummins, CAT, etc... HD Engines may or may not have differant emmissions cycles but it usually because they are designed to take advantage of a particular niche (fuel or regulation). Much of the much published Bio-diesel emmisions in HD diesel engines are retro-studies (old tech new fuel). Purpose built and configured for Bio-D they could make the emmisions profile anything they want.

Case in point... Cummins B engines are used in pickups to HD Trucks to Marine apps. Some of the marine apps run at RPMs that would not be much differant then our TDIs. Each configuration has way differant fuel maps and cam timings to take advantage how much power and where (RPM)they want the power made as well as on what fuel they'll most likely be using.

MY POINT you ask?? Just ranting!! I flip out every once in a while when reading these long threads and feel the need to pop a vein. This vein is the implication that HD diesel is "bad". It's not; just differant. My TDI will have differant "emmissions cycle" then your TDI just because I run differant fuel and probably drive differant too!
 

testy_SOB

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[ QUOTE ]
They aren't going to ship it in railcars.
They are going to use the same pipeline system as petroleum.
Something that cannot be done with biodiesel.

Sunfuel
Infrastructure
"As a first step SunFuel® will be offered as a diesel fuel. This SunFuel® uses the same infrastructure as conventional mineral oil fuels.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll note that VW doesn't mention pipelines!!! First off their discussion is really German Centric (focused on EU issues not US) And the picture is a Fuel Station (aka INFRASTRUCTURE). I wouldn't extrapolate their discussion in Germany about German plans to the pipeline infrastructure in the States!

My guess is anyone going to the expense of making synfuel in this fashion isn't going to run it through any system that #^($s it up! Even BP doesn't distribute it's high grade (Premier and Supreme) diesels through the pipelines. They wouldn't be high grade anymore. Of course if all the fuel goes to high quality then piping might not be an issue.

Another dirty secret...Many mid-grade gasolines are just low grade mixed at the pump with high grade gasoline.
 

testy_SOB

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[ QUOTE ]
I've heard this argument a lot but have seen little data to back it up. How much do gasser NOx emissions go up? Comparing a TDI with, say, a Honda Accord, the TDI NOx levels are on the order of 100 times higher. So you're saying that eventually that Accord's NOx output will go up ten thousand percent?


[/ QUOTE ]

Take his word for it (maybe not his math). There is no way to quantify how much (except in gross statistical terms for the fleet) NOx goes up for any individual car. For a well maintained vehicle with little to no compression loss and no carbon buildup and a working in spec catalytic converter there will be small changes. For a vehicle with moderate to severe carbon buildup and/or partial converter failure you will have huge NOx increases. Same for cars with vacuum leaks, timing problems, etc...

Do a Google or hit the EPA site and you will find discussions on how and why emmissions systems fail
 

testy_SOB

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[ QUOTE ]
And you are never going to get a U.S. or a European manufacturer certify the use of biodiesel for the upcoming U.S. Tier II / CA LEV II or the Euro 4 emissions.

[/ QUOTE ]

They'll certify with any fuel that is legal and in their fiscal best interest to certify. If Canada or the US (or major regions in either) mandate BD use then Big Auto will fall all over them selves to certify what ever they need to certify. Hell, Ford built a gazillion flex fuel vehicles because of one paragraph in the tax code in the late nineties. GM expanded their CNG production for one year because of Arizona giving a tax break to CONSUMERS buying dual fuel vehicles.

Follow the money and you'll find the bigger the pile the faster Big Auto will do what's needed to shovel off the pile.
 

testy_SOB

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[ QUOTE ]
...don't tell me a lab in sweden buring it in an oven instead of a car says its dirtier than crude oil.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Swedish study was a driving study but I'm not sure why the hell it's in this discussion. If anyone took the time to read it you would find that it is quite supportive of diesels properly equipped. It doesn't really address Bio-D per se but diesel vs gas and diesel technology vs better diesel technology. The study also points out that for the REALLY scary emmissions (PAHs, Benzene, etc...) and HC in general, the diesels Smoke /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif the gas cars! They also mention that the difference could be more drastic if you look at extra-vehicular emmisions (from production, transport and fuelling). Particulate and NOx still bad but with EXISTING technology and low or no sulpher fuel that gap is closed or reversed. Buy the way, most Bio-D is low or no S.
 

testy_SOB

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[ QUOTE ]


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First of all, a cycle with a period of 135 million years is responsible for measurable warming over the last 100?


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Understanding the large cycles between warm and cold here on earth are only now starting to be understood.


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Duhh!! The total sum of human knowledge about anything is only beginning to be understood when taken against 135 million years. One well understood timeline is that of repeated Ice Ages and they are in Tens of Thousands of years. Guess the Glaciers came and went with out checking to see if Ole' Sol was having a Hot Flash!?!
 

MITBeta

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Testy SOB: You can always reply to all points in one post...

anyway:

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you are going to replace a specific pipeline system or build one for only biodiesel the current system will not transport biodiesel through the pipeline system.


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Right, this is my point EXACTLY about SunFuel as well. You cut and paste a lot, but do you actually read what gets posted, especially by others?
 

testy_SOB

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Wisconsin
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Beetle, 1998, Red
[ QUOTE ]
Testy SOB: You can always reply to all points in one post...


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I was thinking that would have been the way to go ... but I was on a roll...

[ QUOTE ]
Right, this is my point EXACTLY about SunFuel as well. You cut and paste a lot, but do you actually read what gets posted, especially by others?

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I assume that was directed at some one else?? If not then yes I read the posts and that isn't my quote. /images/graemlins/confused.gif
 

BioDiesel

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What does emissions have to do with anything?
Gas isn't renewable, biodiesel is.
You won't care about emissions once we start to run out of gas and the price skyrockets.
 

AutoDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2000
Location
Pacific Northwest
[ QUOTE ]
Right, this is my point EXACTLY about SunFuel as well.

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Do you think someone is magically going to come up with billions of dollars to develope a separate pipeline system for biodiesel alone? Or SunFuel?
 
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