Biodiesel sourced from chicken fat - good stuff, or avoid?

[MadCat]

Please excuse the bio-newb question

I haven't paid a lot of attention to biodiesel, since I incorrectly assumed that it wouldn't be available in my area (metro Pittsburgh).

To my surprise, I found two sources very close to work. One advertises B5, but the other is B100. I called and asked about their production and sources...to find that their biodiesel is made from converted chicken stock/fat.

Does it matter *at all* what source material is used to produce the biodiesel? Any source materials to avoid?

I don't plan on running B100 in my '13 Passat TDI, but I would like to mix in to approximately 5% for added lubrication value.

thanks!

 

[wxman]

IIRC, there was a report (USDA?) issued several years ago that concluded that biodiesel produced from animal fats (e.g., chicken fat) actually was higher quality than plant-sourced biodiesel (e.g., soy) in terms of properties like cetane number. The biodiesel produced from animal fats has a higher saturated FAME molecule than plant-sourced biodesel.

At the very least, animal-sourced biodiesel should be just as good as plant-sourced.

 

[puntmeister]

Agree with wxman.

So long as the producer is doing a decent production job, I wouldn't worry about using the chicken fat biodiesel - especially in 5% concentrations...

 

[joshattack]

Are the two places that you are talking about in Pittsburgh? There is Baum Automotive that has B100 and the GetGo station a few blocks down that has B5. Baum's price is pretty high, especially for something that is made from fat and solidifies very easily in the cold. The GetGo sells their Bio for way cheaper, $4/gal as of today... but its just B5, which is kind of odd since all pump diesel in PA is supposed to be blended up to 5% IIRC. GetGo still is the cheapest diesel in the city that I have found though.

I use Baum in the summer but I would be really hesitant to blend with it in the cold seasons. I use the GetGo for the rest of my fuel, more because of its price...

 

[MadCat]

joshattack, those are the two places that I've found so far. I just filled up at that GetGo (B5 at $4.00/gal) and picked up 5 gal of the B100 from Baum Automotive ($5.28/gal).

That particular GetGo is the first place that I've seen specifically labeled as biodiesel. Heck, I rarely see Cetane labels.


thanks for the replies! This TDI community is fantastic.

 

[joshattack]

Baum went down in price! Last time I was there it was $6 something per gallon!! Good luck

 

[CopaMundial]

The GetGo sells their Bio for way cheaper, $4/gal as of today... but its just B5, which is kind of odd since all pump diesel in PA is supposed to be blended up to 5%

I'm pretty sure the Bio mandate in PA is still just at 2% (aka B2).
The law was written with steps to increase the percentage based on In-State production of BioDiesel.
The initial 2% was @ 40 million gallons. The 5% mandate hits @ 100 million gallons, but I don't think PA production has reached that point.
Then 10% @ 200 million gallons and 20% @ 400 million gallons.
(source)

 

[MidnightBlue]

Does it matter *at all* what source material is used to produce the biodiesel? Any source materials to avoid?

I don't plan on running B100 in my '13 Passat TDI, but I would like to mix in to approximately 5% for added lubrication value.

One thing to watch out for is the cloud point. Biodiesel in general has a higher cloud point than petrodiesel, and biodiesel made from animal fats has a higher cloud point than that made from vegetable oils. (I can't find my original source for this information to cite, but I'll keep looking for it.)

But at 5% I wouldn't think you'd have anything to worry about.

 

[joshattack]

I'm pretty sure the Bio mandate in PA is still just at 2% (aka B2).
The law was written with steps to increase the percentage based on In-State production of BioDiesel.
The initial 2% was @ 40 million gallons. The 5% mandate hits @ 100 million gallons, but I don't think PA production has reached that point.
Then 10% @ 200 million gallons and 20% @ 400 million gallons.
(source)

Thanks. It still seems odd to advertise Biodiesel when its only at best 3% higher than the mandate. The fine print does say it is up to 5% right? Meaning that it could just happen to be B3? I wonder if they will increase it to B10 when the mandate for all pumps raises to a 5% blend.

At least they are trying and its still cheaper than the other diesel.

 

[puntmeister]

Thanks. It still seems odd to advertise Biodiesel when its only at best 3% higher than the mandate. The fine print does say it is up to 5% right? Meaning that it could just happen to be B3? I wonder if they will increase it to B10 when the mandate for all pumps raises to a 5% blend.

At least they are trying and its still cheaper than the other diesel.

Not that odd, if you are trying to boost sales. A bit deceptive, but not odd.

 

[Lug_Nut]

A thumbs up for Baum Blvd. and their continuing to carry a high percent biodiesel. It's not the easiest pump to back up to, and trying to fill to the same level when the car isn't level means there is the appearance of a fuel economy difference (I fill when passing through and not two successive tanks), but it's in my GPS.

Now if I could find a fairly direct route that avoids PA-22......

 

[runonbeer]

Baum's price is pretty high, especially for something that is made from fat ...

All biodiesel is made from fat.

 

[joshattack]

All biodiesel is made from fat.

I assume most people read that as ANIMAL fats, but yes all biodiesel is made from fats from vegetable or animals if you want to be a stickler

 

[bbob203]

Chicken fat is really high in pufa(polyunsaturated fat). The higher an oil is in pufa the better it is for bio/ wvo burning. However a refined high pufa oil oxidizes very fast due to vacant bonding sites on the molecule that allows oxygen to bond thus forming a more polymer like substance hence polymerization.

 

[MidnightBlue]

Biodiesel ... made from animal fats has a higher cloud point than that made from vegetable oils. (I can't find my original source for this information to cite, but I'll keep looking for it.)

Found it. I was thinking of The Good Book of Biodiesel (PDF) from the Sustainable Biodiesel Alliance. It has some charts for various blends and sources.

At the extremes - it looks like B100 from canola has a cloud point around 37F, B100 from animal fats is around 66F.

 

[MadCat]

Thank you for the replies and all of the great info. I have a lot yet to learn.

The b100 that I bought appears to have formed a waxy layer inside the 5 gal container. Its cold in my garage...but that took me by surprise.


Will the waxy substance "melt" once it warms, or is it a sign of spoilage?



Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[MichaelB]

Thank you for the replies and all of the great info. I have a lot yet to learn.

The b100 that I bought appears to have formed a waxy layer inside the 5 gal container. Its cold in my garage...but that took me by surprise.


Will the waxy substance "melt" once it warms, or is it a sign of spoilage?



Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

It is still good just bring it in the house and warm it up.

 

[fshowcars]

Nice info guys, I live in the south hills but work in the city or cranberry... I see 5% suggested bios up here at getgo and marathon? but I will be watching more closely for additional stations that pop up.

Do you guys use gasbuddy? They do have a diesel section now, was hoping they would allow us to rate the diesel, per station, as well! (sent in a feature request)

 

[Lug_Nut]

Will the waxy substance "melt" once it warms, or is it a sign of spoilage?

I've found that it doesn't 'melt' at ambient temperature so I simply strain it out, pouring one 5 gallon jug of fuel through a paint strainer into another.
This is actually a known technique for lowering the pour point by 'cold distilling' the longer heavier molecular chains out and leaving the shorter lighter ones thus lowering the average cloud and gel points.

Others claim that the globules do re-melt when warmed to about 100F and then stay in suspension until near freezing when they accrete and settle out again. They are super high in cetane, just not so good for winter use. I don't collect enough to make it worth saving.

 

[BeetleGo]

The key is whether this biodiesel is ASTM certified. Ask to see the paperwork. If it is, and it's less than 6 months old use it. Mix the high percentage stuff down to 20% in the winter. If you can't verify that it's ASTM certified, run!

As for certain percentages required by law, even at 2% you are lubing up your engine, picking up cetane levels, and getting us to higher percentages in the future! So even if it's 2%, your doing fine.

 

[jerryfreak]

The key is whether this biodiesel is ASTM certified. Ask to see the paperwork. If it is, and it's less than 6 months old use it. Mix the high percentage stuff down to 20% in the winter. If you can't verify that it's ASTM certified, run!

As for certain percentages required by law, even at 2% you are lubing up your engine, picking up cetane levels, and getting us to higher percentages in the future! So even if it's 2%, your doing fine.

there is no 'astm certification' and no requirement fo fuel to be such.

that said, >95% of the fuel out there on the market passes spec (primarily a result of EPA and IRS regs for RINs and tax credits respectively),and you are most likely going to just get a puzzled look if you ask the gas station clerk for a certificate of analysis

 

[BeetleGo]

ASTM certification is a must; otherwise you just don't know what your putting in your car. If it doesn't have it, don't use it. It's that 5% that you need to worry about!

 

[Lug_Nut]

Seconded.
I worry about the 1% petrodiesel because I have no idea where that comes from. The 99% bio: I know the people that make it, I've audited their records, and I trust them.

 

[jerryfreak]

ASTM certification is a must; otherwise you just don't know what your putting in your car. If it doesn't have it, don't use it. It's that 5% that you need to worry about!

again, good luck tracing back the fuel at the pump to whatever cert that actual fuel went through by the manufacturer. its just not all that realistic in most cases. for example, many biodiesel distributors get fuel from multiple sources and while they check certs on the individual loads, they all go into one tank. also tanks are never empty so even if there is only one supplier it is fuel intermixed with the last load. thus there is no cert at thepump level unless you were to pull a sample and cert it yourself

 

[BeetleGo]

Jerry, I'm just saying. If you don't ask you don't know what you're putting in your car. If its a big name brand the chances are good that they're using proper. Clean. New biodiesel. If you don't do proper due diligence you may well be sorry.

Caveat emptor :-|

 

[runonbeer]

Most producers would at least be able to provide a Certificate of Analysis from their in house lab. Even if it is not as comprehensive as a full blown ASTM, it will give you a good idea of the fuel's properties.

Typically I would only ask for a CoA if it were apparent that there was some deviation in feedstock from what had regularly been used previously