Bio vs non-bio

blu_jet_92

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all of them
i was talking to a buddy of mine the other day (who is a diesel mechanic for cat) and he was saying that i should be running 100% non-bio diesel. he claimed that his truck gets better power and mpg if he doesnt put bio diesel in. can any of you point me to a existing thread or comment on this??
 

bugget

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Its going to change depending on how the biodiesel is made. Basically it comes down to less energy per gallon than ULSD. Bio often has higher cetane values and lubricity than ULSD though. Many people consider it a really good additive and you will see lots of threads where people report an increase in power and mileage with low % blends of biodiesel and ULSD. Tons of info in the forum linked above.

Edit: Also what the biodiesel is made from.
 

VWBeamer

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In my experience you will get less power and MPG if you run over 20% bio, below that it's not really noticable.

On a 2001, 5% bio would be great if you could get it. Your injectors and IP would last longer.
 

ThoughtCrime

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From what I've read, B20 provides the most benefits towards the engine. Increases lubricity and cleans out diesel particles clogging the system for a healthier engine. Just make sure to change the fuel filter a week or two after you start running it because that's where those broken down deposits are going to collect.
100 percent bio will result in about a ten percent drop in mpg/power, but is usually run if you're making it yourself to achieve freedom from the gas pumps.
 

Lug_Nut

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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
Give me a few minutes and I'll post the dyno plots of my car on B100 and on D2. The basic upshot is:
Yes, peak HP on D2 is higher than peak HP on B100. But since I don't regularly drive at 3300 rpm where peak HP is made, that maximum power output difference means almost nothing in the real world.
What is interesting is that at lower engine speeds, around 2000 rpm, B100 makes more power than D2. Not much more, just a percent or so, but not less power.

Now I'm off to find the charts. I'll be right back.

<edit> Here it is:

Files #10 and 13 are B100, files 11 and 12 are D2. <end>
 
Last edited:

Jethro

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The above dyno graphs prove that engines are variable. If you run 4 back to back runs on a dyno either B100 or D2, +/- 2HP is very common (even with a standard transmission).

I had a '96 Dakota that dyno'd 99.8, 101.3 and 98.7 hp, 3 back to back runs.
 

Lug_Nut

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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
The above dyno graphs prove that engines are variable. If you run 4 back to back runs on a dyno either B100 or D2, +/- 2HP is very common (even with a standard transmission).
I had a '96 Dakota that dyno'd 99.8, 101.3 and 98.7 hp, 3 back to back runs.
But did you run any of those pulls on a fuel that was purported to provide 10% difference in power? The amount of variation between the average of my two B100 pulls and the the two D2 pulls, is 1 percent, not the expected 10% (or 8%, or 12%).
Everyone else can go right on thinking that they'll lose power or MPG.
I don't accept much on mere say-so and had to prove to myself, one way or the other, if the generally accepted belief was true.
 

cactus13

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Lugnut, Your dyno test is very interesting news in that I never realized horspower loss data was tied to max RPM. Why do you think HP is equal or better w/bio at lower rpm's? Is there any other confirming information that also comes to this conclusion? What year and model car did you run this test on?
I must agree that my 04 NB TDI on B100 and my F-250 on B50 both run excellent and have been for four years.
Hijacking here... Do you know of any success from anybody trying to run biodiesel in the new VW tdi's with DPF regeneration? It's nothing but bad news with everything I read. Any tricks or mods out there other than 3000 mile oil changes?
Thank you for any info,

Dana
 

RC

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Hijacking here... Do you know of any success from anybody trying to run biodiesel in the new VW tdi's with DPF regeneration? It's nothing but bad news with everything I read. Any tricks or mods out there other than 3000 mile oil changes?
Dana
Which is why we are hanging on dearly to our much loved older 1Z B4V's and the 603 'Benz... which love the stuff straight.

Ron
 

b4black

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But did you run any of those pulls on a fuel that was purported to provide 10% difference in power? The amount of variation between the average of my two B100 pulls and the the two D2 pulls, is 1 percent, not the expected 10% (or 8%, or 12%).
Everyone else can go right on thinking that they'll lose power or MPG.
I don't accept much on mere say-so and had to prove to myself, one way or the other, if the generally accepted belief was true.
You would need to plot power versus fuel volume (not practical on a shop dyno).

Differances in BTU content show up better in fuel economy tests. All legitimate tests show a strong correlation between BTU content and MPG.



While not a totally direct comparison, E85 can make same/more peak power, but looses ~27% MPG to gasoline. 27% is the differance in BTU's.
 

Lug_Nut

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Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
It is customary to state power and torque at their highest value, 'maximum' power or 'maximum' torque. That means that the fueling is also at maximum or wide-open-throttle.

I suspect that biodiesel makes more power than petrodiesel (at less than peak power rpm) due to its slower burn rate. It's conjecture on my part, but I could believe that a longer duration burn can keep cylinder pressure higher than a quicker flash. At higher rpm the piston can be pulled down faster than the biodiesel burn rate can create expansion and so there is less cylinder pressure, less power (and a lower maximum rpm, too).

The power vs. fuel volume difference isn't changed because of D2 or B100. The fuel pump command has no means of knowing the fuel type. The pump displacement isn't changed, it's still some same percentage of stroke limit regardless of fuel.
There is no need to adjust the fuel ratio when a diesel's air flow is unthrottled and therefore unregulated.

My best fuel economy tests have been on B100, mainly because I only use B100 in fuel economy competitions. That's not because B100 provides better fuel economy, but because the use of B100 does not cause a loss of fuel economy in real world driving in real cars on real roads.

The BTU values are often calculated at condensing temperatures. None of our cars run with the exhaust that cold. We aren't getting, we CAN'T get, all the BTU energy out of diesel or bio (or gasoline either) in automobile engines.
The energy that CAN be used for motive power is equal with bio or petroleum diesel, it's just that there is less wasted latent heat out the tailpipe with bio.
 
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