BHW/01E 6 Speed Swap

[rocketboy52]

Just Read this thread from Start to finish. Lots of good info. I'll be interested to see how the manual rebuild goes as well. I still have a question about the 01E 6 speed. It looks like this is the way to go if you want the best mileage possible, but I keep seeing posts that "Say" that the 5 speed transmissions have the same top gear ratio as the 6 speeds, but no one has posted what their acutal top gear ratio is for their 5 speed. I think that 01E is the base transmission number that could be "lots" of different VW transmission codes. For 6 speed trannys I think I'm now looking for one of the following:
GVS
DQS
FFN
FRF
FRK

Which are all 01E tranmisions right? I found a West coast tranny shop that specializes in rebuilding 01E transmissions, but the first guy on the phone didn't know if he had any TDI infomation. He said he had "all" gear ratios avalible so I wanted to specify which VW tranny code ratios I'm looking for.

Previously in this thread the ratios for
GVS, DQS, and FRF have been given. Should I consider any other ratio sets? I've read about 6 speed humming at 2000 rpm and I'd like to not have that issue after going through the hassel of swapping the car over. Thanks for sharing your experiences!

 

[vwztips]

Actually "best mileage possible" is a bit misleading. My FHN 5 speed returns 32-35 in town and 40-45 HWY depending on speed and conditions.

All the manuals I have driven have a little bit a "humming" around 2000 when you romp down on them in 5th or 6th. If the 6th fear in the 6 speed is taller than the 5th gear in the 5 speed then the "humming" will be worse in the 6 speed.

Keep in mind there are only a few 6 speeds which are geared taller than the 5 speed FHN/GGB. Also there is a differential bearing o the 01E which needs to be addressed before using.

IF it were my car and money I would go for the 5 speed.

 

[rocketboy52]

Correct TDI manual 5 speed trans only come from over seas b5s right? I have an email and pm out to Frans at Dutch auto, but he hasn't responded in over a week. (

 

[Windex]

Done and done.

Put the box back together on Saturday, most of the way installed on Sunday (on my back - no hoist).

Finished her off tonight and went for a drive - noise is gone.

Pinion preload seems to to have been calculated correctly, Instead of placing a smaller shim under the output shaft bearing in the cast (middle) housing, I went and bought a bunch of feeler gauges, and spaced out the housing that way.

.020" feeler gauge spacers between housings, + .006" preload = (should be) .014" play on the ouput shaft as measured with a dial gauge.

My preload shim ended up being .009" too thick and placing 2.5x the preload on the bearing - likely cause why it failed. More pics to come.

 

[Uberhare]

Awesome! Now I know where to go when mine fails....

 

[imo000]

Nice work but I am a bit confused with the lingo. Normally the preload of a pinion bearing is not the same as the freeplay between the ring/pinion gear. Is VW using these terms in a different manner? My father has a gear cutting shop and I have been around the gear bussiness for some time. Also have worked on traditional rear ends of RWD cars and pinion bearing preload is is used in a different way than you've described.

 

[Windex]

I think what you are referring to is backlash - the amount of play (there always has to be some) between the ring and pinion gears.

Preload (that I am referring to) is the tightness of the bearings on the output shaft. Think of it like taking a rear wheel bearing nut and making it hand tight (to take up any clearance), then tightening the nut a further 1/8 turn. The preload on the bearings would be the 1/8 turn (or the distance the nut moves inward in that 1/8 turn).

 

[imo000]

Ok then we are bit talking about the same thing. I though you were calling backlash a preload.

 

[Whitbread]

Done and done.

Put the box back together on Saturday, most of the way installed on Sunday (on my back - no hoist).

Finished her off tonight and went for a drive - noise is gone.

Pinion preload seems to to have been calculated correctly, Instead of placing a smaller shim under the output shaft bearing in the cast (middle) housing, I went and bought a bunch of feeler gauges, and spaced out the housing that way.

.020" feeler gauge spacers between housings, + .006" preload = (should be) .014" play on the ouput shaft as measured with a dial gauge.

My preload shim ended up being .009" too thick and placing 2.5x the preload on the bearing - likely cause why it failed. More pics to come.

Next time give me a ring, I stock every single shim in ETKA for the 01e for the countershaft and diff bearings. Would've been much easier haha!

 

[Windex]

next page bump...

 

[Windex]

So, After driving for a few days - I am now noticing a slight gear whine at 100-115kph...

Whitbread's advice about ensuring proper gear contact was /is right on the money.

So now my options are:

1) live with the whine (which is actually not that bad, but it bugs me
2) tear the transmission out, tear it down, work harder at getting the pinion aligned with the crown (which requires measurement, ordering shims, waiting, reinstallation) and hope that it's quiet.
3) Remove the transmission and send it to Whitbread, who rebuilds these 01Es for kit cars and porsches all the time.

Note - I have rebuilt diffs before, but they were GM style where the side bearings are adjustable, and the parts dept was fully stocked with shims. Diffs don't scare me, but the prospect of being without the car for another month is daunting.

So, I have another euro 6-spd inbound, and will likely be yanking this one *again* and taking it to Whitbread in Michigan.

poop.

*edit* Ok, I give up - used to be 100 post per page... *confused*

 

[rocketboy52]

Windex, knowing what you know now, should I consider sticking with a 5 speed? I'm sure tempted by the 6 speed, just because its cooler, but at twice the price and it looks like about twice the hassel, is it still worth it? I would love some hindsight perspective! I'm about to pull out the GMR and I need to settle on what manual to install. Did you order your inboud 6 speed from Dutch autoparts?

 

[Windex]

I'd be on the fence. The FRF (or DQS) transmission has the tallest final gear available in a B5 FWD transmission.

Which translates to low highway revs and a more enjoyable long distance cruise.

I'll let UberHare chime in, as he has a 6spd with the same 6th as the tallest 5th, and he remarked that he would like to swap into the taller version 01E if he had the opportunity. There is also the lower 2nd gear usability factor as well.

The question is if that 200-300 rpm reduction is worth all the effort.

If I was relying on others to do my wrenching - I would recommend the 5 speed over the 6, unless cost is no issue in obtaining the tallest geared transmission.

I have my spare 01E in hand now (sourced through a local importer, not Frans), and it will be going in this weekend. My existing 01E with the slight diff whine at 110kph will then be disassembled (again) and dragged to Michigan to have the diff preload and gear spacing set properly.

I'm in it for the long term. Once done, I will have the tallest geared TDI B5 wagon available and wont have to mess with it again no matter what power i put through it, as the 6 speed is rated for about 100lb/ft more than the 5 speed, hence its popularity with the kit car crowd. So for me, I still would not have done it different, despite the challenges so far.

 

[Windex]

So now I have a gronking noise when I release the clutch. Only happens if I release / engage the clutch quickly - If I release it nice and slow, then the noise doesn't happen.

I suspect it may be bushing I used in the center of the crank to support the input shaft.

I ordered the correct roller bearing from VW, and will be yanking the transmission for the third time this weekend... Le Sigh.

 

[Uberhare]

Sigh. I need to pull mine at some point to install the upgraded clutch. I'm very curious to look for wear due to lack of bearing engagement. 71K now and counting.

I must of fell asleep at the wheel - I didn't notice your gearing pondering till tonight. I certainly would like a slightly taller 6th. The gear I have now is perfect for around 100 kph. So if you drive like Grampa - its great! If you want to cruise at 130 - its ok, but the mileage suffers a bit.

ps you are welcome to pull my transmission for bearing research purposes I haven't had time to do it in almost a year now...

 

[Windex]

On the floor too (no hoist). I'll let you know what I find. If it is worn, I'm hoping that the brass/bronze has taken the hit over the much harder shaft.

We'll see.

 

[Uberhare]

On the floor too (no hoist). I'll let you know what I find. If it is worn, I'm hoping that the brass/bronze has taken the hit over the much harder shaft.

We'll see.

I'll tell you a secret....There's a hoist at my place and you're welcome to use it!

 

[Windex]

Well, I suffered through pulling the transmission on my back yet again (thatnks for the offer of the hoist Uber!).

Found that my pilot bushing had developed a crack, and worked its way out of the crank. Reasonably sure that it was not cracked on install. It lasted about 20k km. Symptom was that it would make a bad bushing groaning noise on clutch takeup. If I was very slow and deliberate with the clutch, the noise would not occur.

I obtained the factory pilot bearing, and installed over the weekend. Pics to come.

Edit: pictures:

Clutch out yet again:

Closeup of the offending bushing (next to the factory needle bearing):

I'm not sure what cracked the bushing - whether I installed it wrong, or if it just wasn't up to the task - in the end it lasted 20k km - We'll see how long the factory bearing lasts with shallower insertion.

 

[Uberhare]

Looks like it's almost time...My flywheel is starting to shake if I roll on power in 5th or 6th. Time to get the clutch out of the box.

 

[Windex]

Mines been fine since I put it in on the weekend - chatter in the clutch is greatly reduced too for some reason.

 

[imo000]

Probably got quieter because of the harmonics of the input shaft changed with the needs bearing.

 

[deming]

Who does manual conversions ?

Where would a person go to have a 2005 Passat TDI professionally and properly converted to a manual transmission with the really good parts ?

( Solid transmission, HD clutch, HD flywheel, HD pressure plate, disc and all the good shafts / bearings ).

Anybody ordering parts from Frans and doing conversions on these that have some experience here in the United States ?

What is the total cost ?

Just curious.

 

[imo000]

There is a lot of HDs in that post. HD usually means Heavy Duty....aka race/spec clutch. Amd those are usually not too friendly for daily driving as they mostly are either On of Off, difficult to slip thrm properly for a smooth start. All the OE VW/Audi parts, except the clutch, are more than enough for a stok or near stock conversion. But looks like good alternatives for the stock 1.8T clutch are becoming available too. The stock 1.8T clutch is OK but is right at the border of not beeing strong enough.

 

[Benjo]

I have a DQS, several FRKs and a GVS. The FRKs and GVS have a longer input shaft, not sure why. The fact the DQS only ever went behind a V6 TDI crankshaft may have something to do with it. The FRK and GVS were always for 4cyl 1.9/2.0 PD TDIs, just like ours. I suspect VW knew a thing or two.
I gave up on my DQS, it is for sale.
I have 20k miles on the FRK now, works great, quiet. 150rpm higher than the DQS in 6th @ 75mph, but who cares.

The spacer and starter type are not affected by choice of 01E gearbox. They are only affected by choice of flywheel.
If you run a 240mm DMF, then you need a spacer, and you need a different starter. And then the extra shaft length on the FRK/GVS becomes pretty useful.

Yes, you can run a custom SMF flywheel and then potentially avoid the spacer, and the starter change. However many in Europe have tried SMF with 01E, and I have not found ANY success. They become noisy, and eat synchros. They need the lighter, non-sprung clutch disc, and so you then have to run a DMF.

Do you happen to know what the differences between the FRK & GVS are? According to info I've found the drive cups, casing, speedo sensor, & ratios are all the same. So does GVS have better bearings etc? Or is it a clutch difference?
Reason I ask is I have an FRK in my Passat which grenade last week & I can't find any FRKs for sale, but have found a few GVS 'boxes. So I want to swap the FRK for a GVS but want to make sure it will work & that I get the correct DMF/clutch before the garage starts work.

 

[Uberhare]

Other than the above comment on the shaft length, and ratios - I can't tell you any more than that. I've put 80K on mine without any issues (other than needing a stronger clutch!) I'd really like a bit taller ratios, but can't be bothered for the hassle.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

With the new mounts, the BSM delete vibrations have settled to the point where I don't really notice them any more.

I have 12k on mine liking it a lot.

Agreed. Manual (5 speed vs 6 speed is personal preference), stage 2 tune and delete have been the best "upgrades" I have yet to perform. Always fun to drive.

Hoping to join you guys, with the 5 speed version, with a v.2 project. Details, and I am sure questions, to come. Right now, I am reading through the vwztips 5 speed conversion thread, and this 6 speed thread, (and also have read the clutch options thread) and pulling out all the info I can in a word doc to collect it for reference. Thanks all you guys for all the great info!

EDIT: And another thread here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=420182 from walt@everythingEuro

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Let's start with the REAL parts list: (Work in progress will update as I complete my swap.)
6 Speed transmission
Passenger side heat shield above axle
240mm flywheel/clutch (get new bolts if reusing used parts)
Pilot bearing 056105313C
6 speed shifter & rods, boot and knob.
Starter
Axles. (larger inner CV than 5 speed units)
5.5mm spacer plate between bellhousing and transmission 01E 103 551B if using stock 240mm DMF. 228mm can do without.
*** 16x18.8 dowel pins x 2. 01E 301 153E. No one has mentioned this before!
Clutch switches and pigtails.
Clutch pedal with longer mounting pin
Brake pedal and rubber - OR cut and modify your original one.
Clutch master cyl, slave cyl and line. Apparently one from a NA 1.8T will work fine
Longer upper starter bolt
Longer bolt + nut for passenger side lower through block
Also used a bolt + nut to relocate the starter wire support on the passenger side. There is an extra through hole up there not used.
Fresh gear oil (recommended)
New outer CV boots (recommended)

so which of the above do I need to order as new parts? I am presuming:
the bolts (longer and etc.)
gear oil
cv boots
pilot bearing
dowel pins
not thinking I need the spacer as I am going 5 speed
also, don't need the starter


any suggestions for ordering? I am tracking down the used parts but want to get the new stuff on the way ASAP as well. Thanks!

 

[Uberhare]

Longer dowels & bolts are only needed for spacer.
Spacer is only needed for 6 speed.

Pilot bearing, cv boots and gear oil - yes buy new!

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Longer dowels & bolts are only needed for spacer.
Spacer is only needed for 6 speed.

Pilot bearing, cv boots and gear oil - yes buy new!

Ok, thanks. I ordered new bolts too.

 

[Nash_TDI]

Read through the whole thread again today for prob the 2nd or 3rd time. Pulled a customer's auto today and wanted to look up the wiring details. Now to wait for the 5spd to arrive from Frans.

Should be a pro by the time I have the time to put in my o1e.