BEW, Which Turbo (VNT17, Hybrid, or GT) and Clutch (Daily or Endurance, Dual Mass?)

[Mysticle31]

I'm finishing up my BEW Refresh. I didn't want to do a rebuild but found a couple stuck rings from previous drivers who loafed this engine around <2000rpm.
Updates/Modifications are a Frank06 Cam, Lite headwork...

I'm trying to decide what turbo to go with. Yeah it's been beat to death. I want to see if anything new is around. Plus I want to consider which clutch kit I need to buy (Daily or Endurance). Does anyone run dual mass flywheels or just 21lb?

Should I even consider a Hybrid or just stick with VNT17 and Stage 4? I'm willing to upgrade injectors for a nice bump after Stage 4 if needed. I'm after maximizing utilization of my clutch, best street manners, and the most power I can get for street drivability up to 4.5. If it can have some upper end pull, kind of like a gas car that would be great, and part of the reason I went with the BEW and higher injection pressure in the first place.

The south bend clutches are rated as follows for torque limit...
325 lb/ft - South Bend Stage 2 Daily
350 lb/ft - South Bend Stage 2 Endurance

What turbo do I want for my build?
VNT 17 (GT1749VB) - 200hp
VNT 17/22 - 210hp
VNT 17/26 - ?

Will any of the GT series turbos offer better street drivability or performance?
GT2052V - 220hp
GTB1756V - 220hp
GTB1749V - 200hp

 

[PakProtector]

You miss the GTD1752VRK...also keep in mind, Southbend has set up a nearly warranty-free requirement that a 'professional' installer needs to do the work. ACT VR1-HDSS is 340 ft-lbs, and technical questions are answered by these folks...

As far as tunes go, get a real one. Burpod comes to mind.

Don't forget to account for the install of a set of DLC1043's.
cheers,
Douglas

 

[Mysticle31]

You miss the GTD1752VRK

Where does it fit on the hierarchy of turbos?

Turbo naming conventions are so confusing when people convert VNTXXX to GTXXXX or add a couple letters after. I've read 17/26 is great, better than 17/22. Then a post from two years later says the opposite. I asked Peter at XMan and he agreed, and mentioned that the new 17/22's are better yet and just as good as 17/26.

Southbend has set up a nearly warranty-free requirement that a 'professional' installer needs to do the work.

I dont want to do work twice. Trying to keep within the requirements of the clutch. I'm pretty sure I want to stay with the lighter sprung clutches for ease of right leg drivability. Anyone driven an ACT VR1-HDSS is 340 ft-lbs vs the South Bends?

DLC1043

DLC as good as manufactures claim? I could have my BEW injectors rebuilt with DLC, order PD130 or PD150 from darkside, or use BHW injectors...

 

[Nevada_TDI]

PD injectors can be really expensive, they have a bit of flow left above stock.
I am running a 24 PSI, Stage 4 tune and the clutch never complains, the Daily Driver 2 has more than enough pressure to not have slipping problems
Granted, I don't beat it either.

 

[Mysticle31]

PD injectors can be really expensive, they have a bit of flow left above stock.
I am running a 24 PSI, Stage 4 tune and the clutch never complains, the Daily Driver 2 has more than enough pressure to not have slipping problems
Granted, I don't beat it either.

I heard the same so I think some people just beat their stuff... ha ha.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

South Bend Stage 2 Daily is going to be more than enough unless you upgrade injectors. And maybe even then. Drives nicer, too. And no, no one uses a DMF with a South Bend clutch. They don't make a kit for the 02J with a DMF. My first SBC was with a DMF, but they've been out of production for years. The single mass is better anyway. Lighter pedal.

 

[Mysticle31]

Nice! Thanks.

What do you guys think of the turbo chart? Some conflicting information so I tried to average were I can.
I assume GT = VNT17, GTB = Ball Bearing. I'm not sure where GTD comes in...

I think I'll keep around 200+ to save clutch and engine longevity. That pretty much means VNT17 or some Hybrid. Question becomes is there some newer better design that is better, like a small GTD? Did I miss anything?

Turbo HP - Full Boost Pressure
GTB1756VK 250hp - 2650rpm 34psi
GT2052V 220hp - 2200rpm 27psi <-- VNT20??
GTB1756V 225hp
GTD1752VRK 220hp - 2200rpm ????
VNT17/22 210hp - 2200rpm 26psi
GTB1749V 205hp - 1900rpm ????
GT1749VB 200hp - 1900rpm 26psi

Malone Stage 4 is 24psi and Stage 5 is 26psi. I'm sure his tunes are fine, I almost want to find a different tuner, specially if I upgrade injectors. I'll start with Stage 4.

 

[PakProtector]

The 'B' is the series. 'D' is later/newer than 'B'. The last three or four suffix numbers indicate ball bearings. I think that is an 'R'. I am sure K isn't it, nor L, and V is common to both ball bearings and journals...and GTD1752VRK is for sure a ball bearing...

I would go bigger on exhaust side. GTD2056...it is 47/43mm vs 43/39 like 17 series

I think there is something wrong with your calculation nubmers...200 hp at 1900 rpm is one FORK ov a lot of torque. 553 ft-lbs...that is 6BT5.9 numbers...

Douglas

 

[Mysticle31]

I think there is something wrong with your calculation nubmers...200 hp at 1900 rpm is one FORK ov a lot of torque. 553 ft-lbs...that is 6BT5.9 numbers...

Oh yeah yeah! That's peak boost not peak hp. That would be odd...

The 'B' is the series. 'D' is later/newer than 'B'. The last three or four suffix numbers indicate ball bearings. I think that is an 'R'. I am sure K isn't it, nor L, and V is common to both ball bearings and journals...and GTD1752VRK is for sure a ball bearing...

I was told this...
1. VNT17 can be equipped with 1st or 2nd type of VNT.
2. GTB is equipped with the 3rd type of VNT.
3. GTD is equipped with the 4rd type of VNT - most efficient.

GTD2056 isn't even on my list...oi...

 

[PakProtector]

Lots will work... And as far as 'what am I putting in?' goes, my meager, real world budget is covering a VNT17. Would love a larger exhaust turbine of the near-latest development( a GTD ), and the smallish compressor side of the Ford variant( the 38/56 inducer/exducer). Hopefully some pile ov cash will come along and allow me to get nuts...LOL

Douglas

 

[Destro]

As far as clutch goes, I have run a stage 2 and 3 endurance from SBC on a 21lb flywheel, the heavier flywheel noticeably slows down engine acceleration and deceleration. My car originally had a SMF conversion when I purchased it and in comparison to a dmf car it was similar. I'd recommend running one of their lighter flywheels so the feel is closer to original, the 21lb one puts more of the weight further out. stage 2 endurance has an almost stock pedal feel.

 

[3L3M3NT]

This thread should help you with turbo sizing. https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/turbo-technical-database.300010/

The GTD series turbo is actually the 5th generation VNT turbo from Garrett.
https://en.powertdi.pl/turbina-gtd1752vrk-do-19-20-tdi-na-moce-220-km,18591
http://shop.profiturbo.com.pl/product/gtd1752vrk-tuning-1-9-tdi-ball-bearing/
https://muchboost.com/product/bille...nverted-with-welded-1-6-1-9-2-0-tdi-manifold/

Helpful thread about the GTD1752VRK. https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/gtd1752vrk.497265/

If you do wanna upgrade injectors, I'd recommend going with a tested used set of PD150s.
https://www.darksidedevelopments.co...di-pd150-arl-injector-set-038-130-073-al.html

As for the clutch, it's better to go with a little bit more holding power than you need right now so you don't have to upgrade when/if you install an even bigger turbo.
Good luck.

 

[Andyinchville1]

HI,

I'd go with a stage 3 clutch in case you want to go with even more power in the future .

As far as the harder clutch pedal , It's really not that bad .... matter of fact I often thought the stock clutch feel was too soft to the point I felt the lightness was the result of something broken (although I knew it wasn't).

Andrew

 

[Judson]

In my ALH I went with the gtd1752vrk and a custom version of malone stage 5 limited to 28psi. I have stock-like turbo response around town and more than enough passing power in 6th gear on the highway.

 

[burpod]

In my ALH I went with the gtd1752vrk and a custom version of malone stage 5 limited to 28psi. I have stock-like turbo response around town and more than enough passing power in 6th gear on the highway.

you should read in your tunes... and there's a simply compare binary function in edcsuite - anyone can do this. i have yet to see a malone "custom stage4/5". they're all the same tune as the rest. only how much higher the boost map is fudged up (or sometimes a wrong map sensor linearization put in to trick ecu to make more boost, but then vcds log mbar values aren't correct). same timing maps, same pump map, same everything else except how much boost map is fudged up last couple columns.

 

[Judson]

That may be true, but she runs perfectly and returns 47 on the highway at 80mph, limits boost right, pulls better from idle than any tune I’ve had, and even at WOT blows very little smoke.
You probably can do a lot better and you probably are a better tuner, but trashing a vendor who’s provided a wanted service to thousands here, especially when our community is small and we are lucky to have what we have, is being ungrateful and ascribing blown turbos and other issues without knowing all of the facts and being onsite to troubleshoot is being unscientific.

 

[Mysticle31]

Regarding GTD turbos Darkside told me
We don't recommend the GTD's on PD engines, they generally spool too quick for the VNT system and ECU to cope with, and also put a lot of load through the drivetrain. It's very difficult to control boost. Had issues with them over boosting and failing.

Which makes me consider VNT17, VNT17 Hybrid or GTB.

Are VNT17 Hybrids still to be avoided? Different reports at different years/eras say they are fine, others say they are not oe quality and cause problems.

 

[burpod]

Regarding GTD turbos Darkside told me
We don't recommend the GTD's on PD engines, they generally spool too quick for the VNT system and ECU to cope with, and also put a lot of load through the drivetrain. It's very difficult to control boost. Had issues with them over boosting and failing.

Which makes me consider VNT17, VNT17 Hybrid or GTB.

Are VNT17 Hybrids still to be avoided? Different reports at different years/eras say they are fine, others say they are not oe quality and cause problems.

i don't think i buy that excuse.... and "hybrids" are also totally fine if you tune things right. like put in correct boost pid maps for one thing. get at least semi-accurate fueling and decent timing maps...

personally i wouldn't hesitate to put in a GTD in a PD. gotta be careful what you read most of that sort of "info" is based on very biased opinions hlaf the time which comes from just bad tuning IMO

a vnt17 is really tiny for any sort of PD build. that's really just a replacement size turbo if your stock one dies.

 

[CantWrite]

Lot smarter people than me; but what about the S7 turbo?

I had that with pp520’s and loved it.....

 

[burpod]

an s7 is virtually just a bv39, essentially vnt17-ish size, certainly not bigger or better. if you never plan on upgrading to larger PD injectors, a vnt17 is a decent choice, cheap and good bang-for-buck old GT turbo. i'd still rather do a gt1852 as a minimum.

 

[Mysticle31]

if you never plan on upgrading to larger PD injectors, a vnt17 is a decent choice

Isn't there still room for improvement with injectors on a VNT17 BEW? BEW injectors are good to about 170 and the VNT17 about 200?

I'm probably going to ask you to tune my car. I thought of getting turbo, injectors and tune from Darkside mostly because they do all 3 and will only tune their own turbos. That way I still have options.

Is BV43 a larger turbo? Where does it fit in the VNT17/GTD lineup? a BHW with a BV43 makes almost 200hp!

 

[krook]

Regarding GTD turbos Darkside told me
We don't recommend the GTD's on PD engines, they generally spool too quick for the VNT system and ECU to cope with, and also put a lot of load through the drivetrain. It's very difficult to control boost. Had issues with them over boosting and failing.

jokes on them, edc15s boost control mechanism is more than capable of running a gtd turbo with electric actuator, let alone a vacuum converted one. it just has to be tuned right, with many logs and corrections so that n75 is on point at all times. it will also be a lot more fun than their favorized gtb2260vk which is practically dead under 2500rpm. a gtd2060vz/gtd2056vzk will do you good, or even a gtd1544vz, depends on the goal. we choose turbo for hp goal, not the other way around. i would stay away from the dinosaur vnt20, get something recent made for today's standards.

also forget about the stage 1, 2, ... n bullshit, what you want is a custom tune made for your car, i would trust burpod with that.

 

[PakProtector]

OK, now I have some time on an ACT VR1-HDSS clutch. SMF flywheel. I like it. I have not got the engine delivering more than a VR6 would stand yet, but eventually... Engagement point is narrower( as they claimed it would be thanks to reduced marcel on the disc).

I have some doubt the stock BEW injectors will deliver over 150 hp. The injection duration is going to get waaaay out of reasonable. With Burpod tuning my ALH running 764's and only a VNT15 it rolls quite nicely, and injection events are quite smaller( noted by less advance improving power output ). Good FE numbers too, and fires *RIGHT up. Rough equivalent is the DLC1043 in PD-Land... Even the DLC800 outrun the PD150 pumps.

If I had not added to the herd, I'd be able to speak of bigger nozzles by now...LOL

Douglas

 

[burpod]

now i'm no expert on my "HP" numbers and have never dynoed a car myself but i do know there's no way a little vnt17 can reliably put out "200hp" nor can the stock BEW injectors put out safely/reliably >170hp (i'm thinking ~150whp a decently healthy limit). a vnt17 simply doesn't have enough flow for that level of power. and VW "oversizes" nozzles for the application, but not by that much lol. if you really want >150hp in a BEW, you most definitely want larger injectors. its not a good way to tune to completely max out the injection times and use a lot of advance and simply hamfist it. it can "work" to a degree - seems to have made plenty of people happy, at least in the shortrun..., but how healthy it is over the course of 100k+ miles... not something i would want. a whole lot healthier on the engine to "oversize" the nozzles for your maximum power goals so you can keep injection times reasonable/short and use less advance for less PCP/less strain on the rods/headgasket/better(shorter) combustion window for more efficient use of the fuel

 

[MRFREMO]

I heard the same so I think some people just beat their stuff... ha ha.

I'm finishing up my BEW Refresh. I didn't want to do a rebuild but found a couple stuck rings from previous drivers who loafed this engine around <2000rpm.
Updates/Modifications are a Frank06 Cam, Lite headwork...

I'm trying to decide what turbo to go with. Yeah it's been beat to death. I want to see if anything new is around. Plus I want to consider which clutch kit I need to buy (Daily or Endurance). Does anyone run dual mass flywheels or just 21lb?

Should I even consider a Hybrid or just stick with VNT17 and Stage 4? I'm willing to upgrade injectors for a nice bump after Stage 4 if needed. I'm after maximizing utilization of my clutch, best street manners, and the most power I can get for street drivability up to 4.5. If it can have some upper end pull, kind of like a gas car that would be great, and part of the reason I went with the BEW and higher injection pressure in the first place.

The south bend clutches are rated as follows for torque limit...
325 lb/ft - South Bend Stage 2 Daily
350 lb/ft - South Bend Stage 2 Endurance

What turbo do I want for my build?
VNT 17 (GT1749VB) - 200hp
VNT 17/22 - 210hp
VNT 17/26 - ?

Will any of the GT series turbos offer better street drivability or performance?
GT2052V - 220hp
GTB1756V - 220hp
GTB1749V - 200hp

So did you get the answers you are looking for here. I had a stage 2 malone tune and my stock turbo just blew up at about 400k km. I am looking at going stage 4 with a vnt-1749vb and clutch upgrade for a little extra power. I can't seem to find the 1749vb listed anywhere. Kermatune just called it a 1749v. Is that the same thing, cause tunezilla Says5 there is a vb and a va? Also, is it possible to stick with a beefed up dual stage clutch or if I do stage 4, am I restricted to a single stage? I presume that those expensive south bend clutches are all single stage. Worried about vibration based on what I have read so far.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Years ago I saw a BEW make 152 HP with a VNT-17, RC3, and a 2.5" downpipe. It was a dynojet, so perhaps that 152 was a little on the high side. But it was still pretty impressive.

 

[PakProtector]

Years ago I saw a BEW make 152 HP with a VNT-17, RC3, and a 2.5" downpipe. It was a dynojet, so perhaps that 152 was a little on the high side. But it was still pretty impressive.

And if that BEW was yoked up to a dyno to run an ARL's Key Life Test I would bet heavily that it would not be very happy at the end. Just a bump to 130 hp got larger crank pin journals, better piston cooling, lower compression and a compression ring further from the combustion chamber...as well as pumps that can deliver the fueling on a kw number 30% smaller.

And yes...preaching to the choir no doubt...LOL

Douglas

 

[Mysticle31]

And if that BEW was yoked up to a dyno to run an ARL's Key Life Test I would bet heavily that it would not be very happy at the end. Just a bump to 130 hp got larger crank pin journals, better piston cooling, lower compression and a compression ring further from the combustion chamber...as well as pumps that can deliver the fueling on a kw number 30% smaller.

Are you saying the BEW is suited to higher power? What's the message/point here? And the ALH is?

So did you get the answers you are looking for here. I had a stage 2 malone tune and my stock turbo just blew up at about 400k km. I am looking at going stage 4 with a vnt-1749vb and clutch upgrade for a little extra power. I can't seem to find the 1749vb listed anywhere. Kermatune just called it a 1749v. Is that the same thing, cause tunezilla Says5 there is a vb and a va? Also, is it possible to stick with a beefed up dual stage clutch or if I do stage 4, am I restricted to a single stage? I presume that those expensive south bend clutches are all single stage. Worried about vibration based on what I have read so far.

Vibration? What do you mean? I put a bunch of the turbo options in order of upgrade earlier in the thread. There are some more that can be added. At VNT17 is still a great turbo for a BEW with great mid range punch. I'm just after clearing the discrepancy and that extra low end, high end, and extra 10%!

It cleaned up some questions, and made a few more. Opinions are like bellybuttons but who's belly button to I listen to? Darksides a solid rep tuner vs some dude on the internet? Taking it all in balance. I really like Burpod and IBW's responses...they have alot of experience and several TDIs. Pak and Krook too but I havn't researched their history as much.

Are VNT17 Hybrids still iffy in quality?

I wonder why the BV43 BHW makes so much power? ...almost 200.

I saw some data that said GTDs spool by 2300...

 

[Judson]

My gtd1752vrk spools like stock. Literally no difference.

 

[PakProtector]

The KLT is a compressed durability test. The PD100/BEW is not going to be happy turned up to ARL-power levels on stock mechanicals. Injection duration is a few steps past too long( imo ) with stock pump/noozles. At elevated power, VW made several upgrades to increase load tolerance and reduce heat generation. And then the KP39 is hardly noted for its longevity at increased power levels...and it is significantly smaller than the GT1749VB the OEM 150 hp engine came with.

Douglas