BEW TB and Tensioner question (long)

DeafBug

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BEW TB and Tensioner question (long) Video added

This post is for the experts only, those that have done the BEW timing belt. Everyone is welcome to read but I like to keep the replies for the experts.

I printed MOGolf's BEW Timing belt change instrustions.
I printed ALLDATA's timing belt instructions.

ALLDATA's instructions contained additional information that MOGolf's instructions didn't. I will point out the difference here as that is my problem.

First of all, I did take a mental image of the tensioner that was installed on the car before I even started messing with the belt. I also note how was it set if you when I put the tensioner tool. I noticed that the tensioner that was in the TB kit didn't have the pin installed. (MOGolf told me that it should be in place already with the PM I send him.) I thought I could reset the tensioner and install the pin before installing the belt on the car. It wasn't hard and it didn't sound a biggie. Now I am not sure if it was a mistake or is the new tensioner bad.

I also have a few questions that I am confused as it doesn't make sense to me. I will point that out as I go.

All instructions here are copied from the ALLDATA whether or not it is also included in MOGolf's instructions. Keep in mind that the pictures are not actual when explaining the instructions. They are what is on the car right now except one.

When the new tensioner is insert on the stud and the belt is in place ready to be set. The following instructions said.
Turn camshaft pulley in elongated holes counter-clockwise in direction of
arrow - onto limit stop. Install toothed belt to crankshaft pulley, belt tensioner
and camshaft pulley.


Remember the counter-clockwise and stop part. As I will explain later.

Then I got the belt on completely set the tensioner as instruction after I managed to get the tensioner locked down with the locking pin that it came with (remember pin was not installed.)

I turned the engine over twice. I wanted to verify that I could still locked it down as mention in the instructions.
  • Turn crankshaft two rotations in direction of engine rotation and set again to TDC No. 1 cylinder.
Note:
  • As this is done, the shaft of the crankshaft stop must be able to engage in the sealing flange from direction of engine rotation.
  • If the crankshaft is turned past TDC No. I Cyl. and the crankshaft stop could not engage in the sealing flange, turn the crankshaft back 1/4 turn to be able to turn the crankshaft in the direction of engine rotation again to set it to TDC No. I cyl. It is not permitted to turn the engine opposite to the normal direction of rotation when turning to ensure the crankshaft stop will engage.
  • Once crankshaft stop T1 0050 has engaged, check whether hub can be fixed in place using locking pin 3359
Okay, I did be careful not to turn too much when I am near the end of the second rotation of turning the engine over. I managed to slowly advance the engine until I could get the crankshaft locked down. (Did I do something wrong here?)

I could not insert the pump pin in the camshaft (called hub in their instructions) So I continued on the instructions on how to correct it or set the what I think is the timing. So the following instructions as stated is what confuses me.

Pull crankshaft stop pin out of hole in sealing flange and turn crankshaft until hub can be locked with locking pin.
So I did, the owner of the TDI help me on that one. He put his finger on the pump pin as I had placed it so that it should slide right in when it get in place. I was under the car, turning the crankshaft bolt forward (in the direction of the engine rotation) until he got the pin fully inserted. I could see it from underneath as I looked up.
  • Loosen camshaft pulley securing bolts
  • Turn crankshaft slightly against direction of engine rotation until crankshaft stop pin is positioned just before hole in sealing flange
That is what I am SO confused on. Just how do you turn the engine backwards when you have the pump pin insert and the bolts all the way at the end of the enlonged slots. Look at the picture above.

The rest of the directions doesn't make any sense as it assumes that there is no tension or you still have some play on the enlonged slot. It mentions about turning it backward 1/4 turn!!! Just how?

Okay, now you can see why I was very careful when I turn the engine over twice as I am near completing the second rotation. Simply to avoid from having to turn it back. (I can read DBW mind on how you may pop the crankshaft bolt loose. :) ) The best thing is that the dimple on the crankshaft pulley is exactly the same as the A4 or the A3 or B4. So it was very easy to tell when you are at or about TDC.

But I had to turn it slightly forward to get the pump pin inserted, then I move it slightly back to get the crankshaft stop (tool) inserted. I did this 3 times. After the third time, I had to stop and analyzing what was happening. And why is the tensioner still screwed up. Here is the picture of the tensioner AFTER turning the engine over twice and inserting the pump pin.

You can see that the V tab is far off from where it should be on the right side. Actually this is in the resting position of the tensioner. I don't think it is creating any tension but the belt is still snug.

Below is the picture while the pump pin is insert and I have slightly moved the engine back to install the crankshaft stop (tool) It did create a little tension.


I still think there is something wrong but I am not sure what it is. I am going to the dealership in the morning and get a new tensioner, hopefully the pin is in place. And I do plan to (if I can) to ask the mechanic about the counter-clockwise fully on the camshaft pulley and then attempting to turn the engine backward 1/4 turn as mentioned in the instructions which to me seems impossible as it already hit the end of the enlonged slots.

Even with the camshaft bolts loose, as mentioned, you still can NOT turn the engine backwards since it is already at the end. Where does the 1/4 backward turn come in?

I am not going to do any more work on it until I have answers.
Why do we need to fully counter-clockwise the camshaft pulley prior to installing the belt and insuring it is still fully at the end of the slot?
Why is the tensioner not creating tension? My mental image of it before doesn't match what it is now.
Is the tensioner really defective as the locking pin was not in place when I open it?
Are those instructions by ALLDATA crap? :rolleyes:

If the experts wants a copy of the ALLDATA instructions, email me. I know your names so other curious ones will be ignored.
 
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DeafBug

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I forgot two more pictures.

The picture below is the picture I took before I messed the belt. As I was trying to lock down the camhead. Notice the hole is in the middle of the enlonged slot.


The picture below is after. When you have to turn it fully counter-clockwise, install the belt, turn it over twice, then see if you can lock it down. That is what it is on the car now.



What I don't understand is why they want it at the end instead of the middle like we do with the A4 when putting the belt on.
 

jasonTDI

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I didn't have this issue Brad but I didn't use ALLDATA'S instructions, just MOGOLF's. things worked out just fine. The belt is difficult to get on IMO and the tensioner is odd too. Then again I have only done 2 of these since there hasn't been a call for it around here yet. Both have significant miles on them since they were done with no issues. Sorry I can't be of further help.

I'd like to get together with Glen and compare notes while he does one to make sure I've got the "technique" right.
 

MOGolf

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Here's what I'd do at this point Deafbug.

1) Cam locked
2) crank locked or pretty near the locking point
3) loosen tensioner nut
4) turn tensioner counter clockwise until pin can be inserted
5) insert pin
6) turn tensioner clockwise until stop
7) snug nut so tensioner doesn't move
8) loosen 3 cam bolts
9) at this point the belt should be loose enough to remove. Slip off water pump then cam.
10) lock crank at TDC
11) turn cam counter clockwise to end against bolts
12) slip belt on cam sprocket making sure as much slack is removed from crank to cam with cam at full counter clockwise position
13) slip belt on water pump, cam sprocket may move clockwise while you do this
14) unsnug nut on tensioner
15) turn tensioner counter clockwise to stop
16) remove pin in tensioner
17) turn tension to set tension
18) tighten tenioner nut
19) tighten cam bolts
20) remove locks

At this point the belt should be installed with correct tension.

Note that the tension is off the belt when the tensioner pin is in it and it is then turned back clockwise until stopped. The cam bolts are loose while you install the belt making sure that there is no slack from crank, past tensioner and up around the cam sprocket, then loop it over the water pump.

If you can't easily slip it over the water pump then either there is too much slack on the crank-tensioner-cam "side" or the tensioner is not set to the "untensioned" state or the belt is "off a tooth or two" in position on the cam.

RichC, if you're reading this, maybe we need to get a video made when GMark's belt comes due soon.
 
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MOGolf

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Continuing (now back from running errands)...

21) turn engine two rotations
22) verify that cam and crank can be locked

If the cam and crank cannot be locked

23) turn as necessary to lock the cam and the crank is near locking position and insert cam lock pin
24) loosen cam hub bolts
25) turn crank counter clockwise so that pin on locking device is nearly in the hole by the width of the "pin" and will go in the hole as you turn the crank clockwise
26) turn crank clockwise until pin goes in the hole
27) tighten cam hub bolts
28) remove locking tools and turn engine clockwise two rotations
29) double check locking positions

This procedure fine tunes the TDC of cylinder 1 with the cam position.
 

DeafBug

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Got the job done. I did talk to the mechanic at the dealership. He said something that was exactly what I was going to do. So I did as what I thought and the car is up and running. I made a video just so you can see what the difference is. Give me some time on that.

If it wasn't for that little tiny thing, the stupid word counter-clockwise, I would have had the job done right with ALLDATA's instructions.

Now I feel confident on doing BEW TB. Just got to memorize the sequence to be efficient.

Ummm, thanks for your help (even if it wasn't much)
 
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DeafBug

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This video is a just under 2MB.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/BEWCamNoSlack.mpg

If you follow the instructions, it says to turn the camshaft fully counter-clockwise and then install the belt. Making sure that there was no slack between the crankshaft and camshaft as it goes over the tensioner.

Well, I did that but then there was a problem with the tensioner. If you pull the pin off the tensioner there is trouble trying to set the tension. And there is trouble trying to lock down after two engine rotations. AND there is trouble trying to correct the timing according to the instructions on how to adjust it.

Well, there is no trouble trying to install the belt over the water pump. So with the camshaft fully counterclockwise, it is preventing tension being made. The part of the belt before and after the water pump doesn't really have tension, it is too loose.
 

DeafBug

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This video is a tad over 2MB.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/BEWCamOneToothSlack.mpg

Now if I do the job again as the instructions says but allow one tooth over when installing the belt. You will have no issues. There is tension all around the belt even before and after the water pump when you set the tensioner. You have no issues making the adjustment needed after you make the 2 rotations. I did have to continue on the instructions on how to correct it as I couldn't insert the pump pin in after the rotations.

So following the directions to correct it. Then you have to rotate the engine twice again. After the second time, I was able to slide the pump pin with no corrections with the crankshaft locked down.

What is even better, the hole is in the middle of the enlonged slot, just like how we have to do with the A4 injection pump. It was in the middle to begin with anyway so it is back to how the car was before I put my finger on it.

All the stupid phrases "fully counter-clockwise" and the "making sure there is NO slack" is what really threw me off. As you could see in the video.
 

Metal Man

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I didn't want to post on this with out it being fresh in my mind. I did a Passat yesterday so now I can tell you how I do them.
Some will say this is not by the book, but it works for me.
As we know the desired end result is crank lock in place and the pin in the cam gear with the adjustment more or less in the center.

Crank and cam is locked. Cam bolts are loose.
I don't put the lower roller on until after the belt is on.
With the cam gear turned a little clockwise as you face it put the belt around the crank pulley and water pump then start it on the cam gear.
Pull the slack up to be sure the bolts on the gear will be roughly centered, if not move a tooth and try again.
Start the tensioner on the stud with the belt around it and finish putting the belt over the cam gear.
I use a screw driver to rotate the locking tab on the tensioner back into place. It takes very little effort to rotate it. You have to hold it away from the block a little as there is a boss on the plastic cover that will be in the way of the tab. Again this is very easy to do. The belt will be just a little snug at this point.
Double check the slots on the cam gear to be sure they are centered.
Now install the lower roller.
Tension belt.
Tighten cam bolts.
Remove lock tools and rotate crank two revolutions.
Insert tools to double check and you're done.
The only special tools needed are the crank lock and cam pin.

 

DeafBug

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Metal Man, I understand it is a Passat but don't you need a tool for the serpentine belt. Pardon me as I haven't seen it so I don't know what I am talking about. Also is it the same crank lock tool on the BEW or is it different?


I also wanted to say that I did another BEW last weekend. This time I attempted to do the same with NO slack and FULLY counterclockwise. It was difficult to get the belt on without putting pressure on the tensioner. So I did it again with ONE TOOTH slack on the cam and the belt went on fine and there is tension all around on the belt. Turn the engine over twice. Bingo! Everything was lined up. I didn't have to do the "correction" steps.

In my opinion, I think MOGolf still needs to put the "correction" steps in his BEW TB directions. For two cars, I had. One had to do it and the other didn't.
 

MOGolf

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I have no problem doing the timing belt following the existing instructions.
 

DeafBug

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I will bow down to you that all your belts you have changed came out perfect. (Does this include that you didn't need to adjust the timing on the ALH engines?) Sorry it didn't happen to me. I hope it goes for the same to others who use your instructions, otherwise we will see posts and then we have to answer their questions. I see a patteren here with the existing ALH instructions that DBW could have updated to avoid those types of questions. So that the person working on the car can get the job done rather than have to wait for hours or a day to get answers so he can have the TDI back up running. I am just helping out. Don't get me wrong. Why does the ALLDATA have those such extra steps if needed?
 

DeafBug

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If anyone needs the ALLDATA instructions, please email me and I will send you the corrections steps (the last few pages of the complete instructions) I can't post or upload it here since it is putting information out on public when members pay for it. There is nothing on sharing the instructions for no profit as long as it remains private and for personal use.
 

Metal Man

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The BEW and the BHW (Passat) are the same as far as the timing belt and related parts go. It's just a different operation to get to the belt on the Passat. I have good prices on these kits by the way. :)
 

MOGolf

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Deafbug I followed the instructions (as written in the current downloadable PDF) with GMark as witness on his car and I did not struggle with removing and installing the belt.

I didn't do it by memory. I went back and forth from PC to car, step by step, just to make sure it worked as written. Where the original doc wasn't clear or precise I made adjustments. This version also has pictures of the tensioner that I didn't get before.
 

DeafBug

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MOGolf, All I am saying is that you should put the correction steps in the document where you had mentioned in post #5 above. It is not there so you are assuming everyone else will be perfect just like you, where it didn't happen to me on the first car. But it did on the second car. It is similar to saying that if you need to adjust the inj. timing at the end of the ALH TB or not. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

However my argument about having one extra tooth on the belt when installing the belt is open to anyone if they want to follow it or not. It is posted for others in the future if they happen to be in the boat I was in since the wording "Making sure there is no slack" is what confused me.
 

sp55

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To Metalman,

I used your technique for installing the timing belt on a '04 Jetta with the BEW engine and it worked great! I've used that method of leaving the tab of the tensioner out of it's square hole until the belt is over the gears on a later 2.0 gas engine and found it was the only way to have enough slack to get the belt on. Same thing works for these diesels. I appreciate your info.
 

chromeBuddha

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Is ALLDATA a better source than Bentley? MOGolf, are yours based on an initial run using the factory procedure? I am guessing yes...

I guess I just never thought ALLDATA was great...
 

rickdick80

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Hi there, DeafBug,

I think the problems I had in this thread:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1944442#post1944442

are similar to what you describe here. I followed the MoGolf instructions (which are stellar, BTW) but I was a little confused at the point of turning the cam pulley, slipping the belt on, and then tensioning. So, as soon as I get parts and a weekend in my parents' heated garage, I'll try the DeafBug method.
 

rowl

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Change Instructions

Been searching and can't find MOGolf's BEW Timing belt change instrustions. Can someone help? :)
 

spooner miller

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Car barely runs and SMOKES TERRIBLY

Ok so it's obvious i did something wrong here. I have a BRM PD engine and did a timing belt change. When i start the car it smokes like crazy and idles very very rough. I know i got the cam locked perfectly but i think my problem is i used a crank lock tool for an alh tdi. I tried to line up the arrow as best as i could to the bently pictures... Does anyone have pictures of where the arrow lines up on a BRM engine with the right tool? Or know where i could get the tool for a brm?.....thanks, Eric
 

spooner miller

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I figured it out, the timing was off. I tore apart my other tdi, got the exact mark on the crank lock tool and reassembled. Engine took right off and ran perfectly. I was afraid i did something wrong internally since i just did a complete overhaul on the engine. Thanks for the help guys i love this site!
 

tjsean0308

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Necro thread here.

Are these videos lost forever? The links seem valid but they just timeout and don't open for me. I know I'm new on here but I like to think I know my way around diesels. I've done lots of IDI and ALH timing belts as well as lots of cummins/Cat work. This is my first BEW belt, just trying to save some heartache, Thanks.
 

JB05

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All the links work for me. If you are after the BEW pdf, you can search threads started my MOGolf and try that.
 

AndyBees

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Amazing that this old Thread would float to the front page about 48 hours after I done my first PD TB job.

Well, the tensionser I got in the kit was not pre-loaded (pin was laying in the box).

So, I installed everything via a multi-tasking method. I had to put the TB, tensioner and Water pump on all in one move............ it worked! Everything was just fine after rotating the engine two times per instructions. Engine runs fine!

I did have issues with Turbo pipe blowing off as I mentioned in another Thread!
 
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