BEW Start & Stall in the Mornings

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
So I know this topic has been beaten down, but t so many threads have also ended without actually reporting a fix.

My BEW has recently (last fall) started having trouble starting and staying running at first start, it is only a summer vehicle so winter operations are of no worry.

I’ve done all the normal checks, repairs, and testing and I’m still short an answer as to why this is happening.

Car has a new low pressure fuel pump, new tandem, new rubber fuel lines, new 100% injectors from Darkside, new injector harness, fresh fuel filter, new OE crank sensor, crank sensor is grounded through the ECU as per the write up, timing is spot on, torsion value is 1.1, and the list continues on.

After the first try to start it requires prolonged cranking, as if there was air in the system, after it’s started it runs 100%, no issues aside from when I let off and come to a stop the idle dips ~100rpm and jumps back to normal. There is absolutely no issue up top or on pulls, power is good, smoke is a haze.

I’ve been pulling my hair out trying to fix this, and I’ve seen answers as crazy as a crack in the fuel channel in the head that bleeds to the crankcase..

Any input is always appreciated.

Thanks
 
Last edited:

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
Thermo-T cracked?
I know the CAM sensor helps with starting too but if it's inop, the ECU defaults to the crank sensor.
Alphabet hardware still intact?

Subscribed, curious...
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Thermo-T cracked?
I know the CAM sensor helps with starting too but if it's inop, the ECU defaults to the crank sensor.
Alphabet hardware still intact?

Subscribed, curious...
Cam sensor is also new, thermo-t was replaced with the filter last fall.

Alphabet hardware??
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Any chance you scanned for codes?
Checked the timing in VCDS?
 

scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
Try rigging up an IV drip style diesel container and running it in the evening, leaving it until the morning. If it starts up without issue you know you're sucking air into the system.


I thoroughly dislike the thermostatic tee and have been rid of mine for a long time with a Nicktane filter head.


If you don't want to go the route of the Cat 2µm filter, get a fuel filter for a 1998 New Beetle TDI. It has 4 hose barbs on the top, no thermostatic tee.
 

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
Just had another thought, since its a BEW, try cycling your key a few times before you fire it. My thought is that would fill the lines with diesel.
 

Wilkins

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Location
British Columbia
TDI
05 Jetta Wagon 5sp, 10 Sportwagen 6MT
What Scurvy said. That’s how I found my thermo tee issue. Was just the O-ring though. A load of grease on the ring fixed it while I got a new tee. The simple fuel feed cuts out a pile of potential problems. If you route the return line back to the container with clear tubing you can also see if any bubbles are coming in somewhere.

Good luck
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Okay, so since the last time I posted I have replaced all of the rubber lines from the plastic lines at the bulkhead to the engine, replaced the Thermo T, and tried running an "IV drip" to the engine, and no luck.

I am still getting ridiculously long cranks, lumpy starts, blue smoke, random idle fluctuations while driving, and at this point I feel it has to be something in the head. Whether it's a crack in the fuel channel or faulty injector o-rings I am unsure.

I am going to park the car w/ the valve cover off, get it started and run if for awhile then shut down to see if the injector bores fill up with fuel, but short of that I am out of ideas and patience.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Location
Richmond, BC, Canada
TDI
Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
Maybe consider doing a compression test.

Low compression would make it run poorly when cold, and then okay when hot.

I picked up a Harbor Freight compression tester for around $50 that has the correct fitting for TDI glowplugs.

You should see about 400 PSI or more in each cylinder, and they should all be close to the same pressure.
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Maybe consider doing a compression test.

Low compression would make it run poorly when cold, and then okay when hot.

I picked up a Harbor Freight compression tester for around $50 that has the correct fitting for TDI glowplugs.

You should see about 400 PSI or more in each cylinder, and they should all be close to the same pressure.
That’s the weird part. I did a comp test last year and was just south of 400 across the board. The car doesn’t stumble and fight for life when it finally starts, once it lights it is fine. MPG is about 38 (city driver), power is great, almost zero dance to the oil cap while running, doesn’t smoke at idle.
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Any chance the anti-shudder valve in the intake is slow to open or something?
No ASV.

I found a thread that covers the ground under the cowl panel by the ECU possibly being corroded, but I find it hard to be my problem, but at this point of chasing the problem front to back and upside down I just need to follow every silly option I have.

I'm not sure how many people with BEWs have had the injector bores become so bad that they no longer seal to the "fuel rail" but that keeps looming over my thought process because I've isolated the fuel system all the way down to post fuel filter and it still does this.
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
How are the fuel temp readouts when the problem happnes?
Fuel temp and ECT read normal, both are just about ambient when cold starting in the morning.

I had seen a thread that said if you unplug both temp sensors and the car starts happier that there is an update available that is supposed to fix it, but I'm not about to have the dealer update my software, there was also a suggestion of adding cranking fuel if you didn't want to do the ECU update, so I am waiting to hear back from Malone on adding more fuel to the cranking table.

The only other thing that sticks out to me is that the Map sensor reads about 140 mBar and requested is 985mBar with key on engine off, but my actual vs requested is met once the car is running. The car shouldn't be taking manifold pressure into account on OL start up, so I can't imagine that is an issue, not to mention that it reads fine under normal operation.

As of today, I pulled the cowl off, again, and checked the grounds near the ECU and attempted to reset the ECU connections, but other than that I am at a total loss for ideas.
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Update: I reset the injector lash and increased my torsion value from 1.1 to 3.3 and the car starts every time now, but still seems reluctant to do so, I don't have to assist it which is a huge step forward.

I'm waiting to hear back from Malone with an updated map, but as of right now just adding more torsion * has gotten the car to a point where it at least starts on its own.
 

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
If it makes you feel better, I'm following this thread really hoping you find a solution...
 

scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
Okay, so since the last time I posted I have replaced all of the rubber lines from the plastic lines at the bulkhead to the engine, replaced the Thermo T, and tried running an "IV drip" to the engine, and no luck.

Have you tried smearing the thermostatic tee o-rings with some thick grease to help eliminate an air leak there? Been responsible for many, many issues as you described. I usually used Syl-Glide silicone grease or Super Lube.



Alternately, get a fuel filter for a 1998 NB TDI, same filter but has 4 hose barbs and no thermostatic tee to leak.
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Have you tried smearing the thermostatic tee o-rings with some thick grease to help eliminate an air leak there? Been responsible for many, many issues as you described. I usually used Syl-Glide silicone grease or Super Lube.



Alternately, get a fuel filter for a 1998 NB TDI, same filter but has 4 hose barbs and no thermostatic tee to leak.
I used Molykote by Dow Corning on the brand new Tee I just installed.

Mark at Malone just sent me a new file that we added 10% at crank and started injection at 0 RPM instead of 50-150 RPM, so we'll see what tomorrow morning brings.
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Still has hard starts, still starts "fine" if I apply ~50% accel while cranking.

Who wants a well built 04 with only minor starting issues? -_-
 

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
Still has hard starts, still starts "fine" if I apply ~50% accel while cranking.

Who wants a well built 04 with only minor starting issues? -_-
Odd but do you have another accelerator pedal you could install temporarily?
 

JB05

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Il.USA
TDI
Golf,2005,anthracite blue
Where did you purchase the crankshaft position sensor? Is the cam sensor original?
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Maybe test the pedal in VCDS and see if it moves smooth and matches the pedal position.

I recall reading about a relearn for the pedal but don't remember the steps.
Key on (don't start), floor to pedal for 10 seconds then release and shut off.
Or something like that.
 

nkfry

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Roseville, MI
TDI
2004 Jetta GLS TDI
Where did you purchase the crankshaft position sensor? Is the cam sensor original?
Annd we're back after about 8 months...

I stored the car in our heated shop over the winter, and when I went to pull the car out of storage it started.. And continued to do so for quite some time, but after longer and longer of it being back out on the road the starting issues came back.

The weird part is; if I plug the car into the frost heater it will start EVERY TIME without issue.

It does start, but takes a handful of tries and once it starts it's fine.

I bought the crank sensor from our local Euro warehouse, I want to say it was OEM neutralized packaging, so factory. I didn't replace the cam sensor, but also saw no reason to. When I replaced the crank sensor it was actually giving me faults for the sensor.



So for those of you who want the TLDR version: Hard starts, stalls after sitting for over night.

- Compression was around 430 on all 4 cylinders
- Has Colt stage 2 cam w/ new lifters
- Darkside 100% nozzles mounted & balanced by Darkside
- New lift pump
- New tandem
- New filter
- New thermo T
- New fuel lines under the hood
- New injector harness
- Correct glow plugs & new harness
- Torsion is set at 0*
- Deviations are within .5-.6 of each other at operating temp
- Multiple sets of new injector seals
- New OE crank sensor
- New timing belt when I had the head off about 8k miles ago
 
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