BEW power loss on hills, emergency bandaid fixes?

tdwesty

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Nov 9, 2009
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Hello all,
Our 2004 BEW Jetta 5speed with 376k kms suffered power loss on a long mountain climb this week while travelling to visit family. This has happened a few times before, but never this severely - I had to shift to 4th, then 3rd and speed dropped to under 80km/h (from 120km/h) on a long 8% grade. I babied it the rest of the 300kms and had no issues except for some random oddness during part throttle acceleration. It felt like a loss of boost, so I'm suspecting something in the vacuum control system or the EGR, neither of which I've touched in 14 years/200k kms since owning. Timing belt was done a year ago at 365k. Issue could also be worn cam or EGR I realize, so I will be looking at both when I get home. I did try unplugging the EGR connector and starting engine, and did not get a CEL, so not sure what this means. I do have the RossTech scanner but it's at home of course.
Right now, I'm hoping for ideas on what options I have to limp home if this gets worse, as I need to drive the 600k home through the mountains before I can look into it further.

On a probably unrelated issue, the AC died soon after we arrived, ambient temps were 39C and we were stuck in traffic with it blowing full when I stalled the engine. Re-started and noticed the AC immediately went warm. I have no power at the AC clutch connector with the engine running and AC on, so I suspect that cranking while AC was on may have cooked the fan control module. I don't believe this is related to the power loss issue; engine runs the same after AC died, clutch is not seized, but is not engaging. I have ordered a new fan control module to install before we head home, to hopefully resolve the AC issue, as limping home over the mountains in summer heat will not be much fun...

Thanks
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Something to try, next time it happens, is to pull over to the side of the hill and toggle the power.

You may find that power is restored... until the next time the engine is stressed by passing or a hill.

If so, classic "limp mode"... many many threads... great troubleshooting guide linked in my sig, but time and a bit of equipment required and so probably not of much help if you're on the road. In many ways if it is classic limp mode there's not much you can do on the road anyways, until you can get the car up in the air, belly pan off, and able to check the operation of the actuator etc.
 

tdwesty

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Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Location
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Something to try, next time it happens, is to pull over to the side of the hill and toggle the power.

You may find that power is restored... until the next time the engine is stressed by passing or a hill.

If so, classic "limp mode"... many many threads... great troubleshooting guide linked in my sig, but time and a bit of equipment required and so probably not of much help if you're on the road. In many ways if it is classic limp mode there's not much you can do on the road anyways, until you can get the car up in the air, belly pan off, and able to check the operation of the actuator etc.
When the first loss of power occurred, there was no safe place to pull over (Big Bear Snowshed on the Coqihalla for those who know it), but I did try power cycling a bit later (turned key off with clutch in on straight flat section), and it didn't seem to have any effect. I was pushing it pretty hard, maintaining ~125km/h on the steepest part of the grade when it occurred. The next long hill I let the speed fall to around 100km/h and it did ok, although I could tell it was on the verge of losing power again. Also, any time I have noticed the loss of power, it has always recovered with backing off on the pedal without needing to power cycle the ECU.
Thanks for the additional info.
 

P2B

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Location
Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
TDI
2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
I suspect that cranking while AC was on may have cooked the fan control module
This is unlikely as the AC system isn't powered while cranking. I assume you have checked the fuses on top of the battery? The compressor clutch coil is also a prime suspect when working AC quits completely and suddenly - easily checked with a meter and can be replaced without opening the system.
 

tdwesty

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Nov 9, 2009
Location
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
I decided to pull the EGR valve, which is about the limit of what I want to attempt with limited tools away from home. I gave it a quick clean and sprayed with WD40 which is all I had at hand, and put it back in. Didn't notice a huge amount of build up inside the intake. Started the car with plug disconnected, idled fine. Plugged it in and I could hear the valve actuate and noticed a change in sound. Unplugged, plugged a few times, same thing. Curious, as with the deposits on the valve stem, it looks like it wasn't opening at all before. I doubt this is the only issue, but appreciate any thoughts. Need to drive it tomorrow for about 20km, but no hills, so I'll see if I can detect any difference. Photos below.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/urtPDpMtoVEYiZ4j8
 

tdwesty

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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
This is unlikely as the AC system isn't powered while cranking. I assume you have checked the fuses on top of the battery? The compressor clutch coil is also a prime suspect when working AC quits completely and suddenly - easily checked with a meter and can be replaced without opening the system.
Yes, all fuses check out fine (in car and on top of battery), no sign of overheating on the connectors. I could not get a meter lead to the clutch coil connector contacts, so the best I could do was check voltage at the plug coming from the Fan Control Module. There was a very low voltage (borrowing old analog meter) but less than 3V with engine running, AC on and fan set to "1" which I read should also trigger both rad fans to low speed. Only the small right side fan comes on, which leads me to suspect the FCM again. Both fans turn smoothly, but I have not checked further. It could the FCM and the coil, but I should know more by Sunday if the new module arrives.
Visiting elderly inlaws, dealing with hospital visits, etc. so only so much I can do right now. Just need to get home in a few days so I can dig deeper.
Thanks!
 

P2B

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Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
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2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
Only the small right side fan comes on, which leads me to suspect the FCM again.
There is only one FCM to fan circuit, it cannot control them independently, so that test points to the large fan being bad, at least on the low speed side.

People seem prone to assuming a bad FCM, but in my experience they are rarely the problem - except when it's a cheap aftermarket one somebody swapped in.
 
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tdwesty

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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
There is only one FCM to fan circuit, it cannot control them independently, so that test points to the large fan being bad, at least on the low speed side.

People seem prone to assuming a bad FCM, but in my experience they are rarely the problem - except when it's a cheap aftermarket one somebody swapped in.
I will see if I can test the left fan with what I have on hand, as I see from the schematic that you are correct about the fans being in parallel. There was just no way I could reach the contacts of the AC clutch connector (I tried to remove it from compressor, but crappy philips screw was going to strip), so I tested the voltage at the plug coming from the FCM instead. Maybe the FCM doesn't supply voltage if the resistance is not within range? That could explain lack of voltage. I have a cheap FCM on the way, which I can return if it doesn't solve the issue. If it gets the AC working for the long hot drive home, it will be worth it.
Someone posted a list of voltage values for the FCM pins along with a schematic, so I will try to check the old vs new when it arrives.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
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mi 48836
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96 B4V, 2005 BEW Beetle, 2005 Jetta Wagon
Lack of fuel = lack of power
Fuel filter changed recently?
Lift pump running? In-tank Pickup screen clogging
Clogged cat?


I know we are dealing with a manual transmission car here but…
One sign of a clogged fuel filter on an automatic transmission car is that it won’t upshift in the higher gears. It will rev high but the ECU information dictates that it can’t warrant putting it into a higher gear if it can’t come up with the torque it needs so it will continue to rev in the current gear. If you back off the accelerator pedal it no longer sees the demand and will finally upshift.
I noticed this more than once on DSG cars.

Taking your foot off the accelerator momentarily will allow the the contaminants to to back off the filter material somewhat and allow more flow of fuel is what I imagine happens.
 
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tdwesty

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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Lack of fuel = lack of power
Fuel filter changed recently?
Lift pump running? In-tank Pickup screen clogging
Clogged cat?


I know we are dealing with a manual transmission car here but…
One sign of a clogged fuel filter on an automatic transmission car is that it won’t upshift in the higher gears. It will rev high but the ECU information dictates that it can’t warrant putting it into a higher gear if it can’t come up with the torque it needs so it will continue to rev in the current gear. If you back off the accelerator pedal it no longer sees the demand and will finally upshift.
I noticed this more than once on DSG cars.

Taking your foot off the accelerator momentarily will allow the the contaminants to to back off the filter material somewhat and allow more flow of fuel is what I imagine happens.
I changed the fuel filter a year/12k kms ago so it should be fine. We only drive about 12k kms per year, and last fuel filter was about 12 years old.
Hoping the VAG Com will shed some light on things when we get home. Our '03 has had similar issues which turned out to be cracked vacuum lines.
Is there a lift pump on the BEW? Don't have Bentley with me. It does feel a bit like fuel starvation on hills, except that there is also some hesitation at times even at low speeds/light throttle.
Although we've had this car since 2010, the engine has been trouble free until now, aside from this occasional stumbling which is gradually getting worse, so I haven't spent much time learning about the PD quirks. I just give it good oil and filters and change the TB...
It does crank quite a bit before starting, especially hot, which makes me wonder about compression. Our '03 ALH with similar mileage starts instantly.
 

CanadianALH

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Canada
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2002 Jetta 5spd 2006 Jetta DSG (wifes)
I changed the fuel filter a year/12k kms ago so it should be fine. We only drive about 12k kms per year, and last fuel filter was about 12 years old.
Hoping the VAG Com will shed some light on things when we get home. Our '03 has had similar issues which turned out to be cracked vacuum lines.
Is there a lift pump on the BEW? Don't have Bentley with me. It does feel a bit like fuel starvation on hills, except that there is also some hesitation at times even at low speeds/light throttle.
Although we've had this car since 2010, the engine has been trouble free until now, aside from this occasional stumbling which is gradually getting worse, so I haven't spent much time learning about the PD quirks. I just give it good oil and filters and change the TB...
It does crank quite a bit before starting, especially hot, which makes me wonder about compression. Our '03 ALH with similar mileage starts instantly.
Yes the BEW has a lift pump in tank. I would check to make sure that’s working. Your cam may also be wearing
 

JETaah

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mi 48836
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96 B4V, 2005 BEW Beetle, 2005 Jetta Wagon
I changed the fuel filter a year/12k kms ago so it should be fine. We only drive about 12k kms per year, and last fuel filter was about 12 years old.
Hoping the VAG Com will shed some light on things when we get home. Our '03 has had similar issues which turned out to be cracked vacuum lines.
Is there a lift pump on the BEW? Don't have Bentley with me. It does feel a bit like fuel starvation on hills, except that there is also some hesitation at times even at low speeds/light throttle.
Although we've had this car since 2010, the engine has been trouble free until now, aside from this occasional stumbling which is gradually getting worse, so I haven't spent much time learning about the PD quirks. I just give it good oil and filters and change the TB...
It does crank quite a bit before starting, especially hot, which makes me wonder about compression. Our '03 ALH with similar mileage starts instantly.
Remember that PD cars can have a real sooty sedimentary mess in the fuel tank which is ahead of your filter. It can be rough on the lift pump.
It does not take more than one crappy fill of fuel to clog things up. Not likely that fault codes will be produced by this.
 
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BobnOH

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Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Since you have a long trip home, a few easy things you can do.
Check air filter, vacuum tubes, replug the MAF, main IP connector and any other electrics easy to access. Look for damaged wires/connects. Check for loose piping.
 

tdwesty

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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Since you have a long trip home, a few easy things you can do.
Check air filter, vacuum tubes, replug the MAF, main IP connector and any other electrics easy to access. Look for damaged wires/connects. Check for loose piping.
Thanks, I will poke around at things, but good idea to replug some connectors that are accessible. I have looked at the vac hoses that are easy to access, and they look fine, but those behind the engine which are more likely to be heat damaged will probably have to wait.
 

tdwesty

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Remember that PD cars can have a real sooty sedimentary mess in the fuel tank which is ahead of your filter. It can be rough on the lift pump.
It does not take more than one crappy fill of fuel to clog things up. Not likely that fault codes will be produced by this.
Do you mean that the fuel returned to the tank in PD cars is dirtier than on VE or CR cars? I did check that fuse 28 is good, but have not checked the relay for the lift pump yet. Should it turn on with the key before cranking? If so, I can remove the fuel line and see if there is any flow at the filter.
Thanks
 

tdwesty

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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Yes the BEW has a lift pump in tank. I would check to make sure that’s working. Your cam may also be wearing
Thanks, I read up on the lift pump and just checked that I have a fuse 28, and all fuses check fine. Didn't check the relay yet. Found a generic code reader which found a P2413 EGR code, probably from me unplugging the EGR yesterday. I cleared it and it didn't come back, but I only idled it. I can hear the EGR actuating after cleaning it a bit; it sure didn't look like it was working from the soot on the shaft. Doesn't sound like the EGR is a likely source of my power loss problem anyway.
Yes, I am sure the cam is wearing, and I will look at it as well. Last time I looked at it was 2010 when we bought it.
 

JETaah

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mi 48836
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96 B4V, 2005 BEW Beetle, 2005 Jetta Wagon
Do you mean that the fuel returned to the tank in PD cars is dirtier than on VE or CR cars? I did check that fuse 28 is good, but have not checked the relay for the lift pump yet. Should it turn on with the key before cranking? If so, I can remove the fuel line and see if there is any flow at the filter.
Thanks
Yes. Have a look in your tank. Your lift pump will likely be black in color as well as the walls of the tank.
 

tdwesty

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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Yes. Have a look in your tank. Your lift pump will likely be black in color as well as the walls of the tank.
Oh great. Just what I needed to hear. I already have a 200L tank on my boat to deal with, along with engine and transmission rebuild in progress...hence the reason for the poor Jetta being neglected.
Thanks, I will pull the pump when/if we get home... :)
 

watatrp

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When was the last time you checked your camshaft and lifters? Mine had similar symtoms just prior to when I changed the camshaft and lifters. Even the slightest incline would slow me down.
 

tdwesty

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It's been about 180k kms... I might pop the cover off tomorrow to have a look. I expect they are worn. Using T6 or Motul but at 370k they might be done.
 

Nuje

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Curious to see what you're able to determine. I was working on a BEW here a couple weeks ago where it seemed to have plenty of oomph, but then once it was held at higher RPMs (3000+), the boost started to drop off.

I thought maybe a boost leak (and there was some oil around the turbo outlet-to-pancake pipe) so I replaced the green o-ring seals on both ends of that, but it still does the same thing. Got a tune from Burpod and while it feels great just about everywhere, if you're really hammering it (e.g., up the 10% grade on the Coq), the boost falls off - from the ~2300mbar and then gradually (over the course of maybe 5-10sec), down to 1400mbar and then hangs out there until you ease up.

I've had limp mode and that hits instantly - you feel a sudden "no mas" from the engine; this is a lot more gradual, and as @tdwesty experiences, you get normal power back at once you back off, without cycling the ignition.

Here's a snapshot from logging MB11:
 
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tdwesty

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Curious to see what you're able to determine. I was working on a BEW here a couple weeks ago where it seemed to have plenty of oomph, but then once it was held at higher RPMs (3000+), the boost started to drop off.

I thought maybe a boost leak (and there was some oil around the turbo outlet-to-pancake pipe) so I replaced the green o-ring seals on both ends of that, but it still does the same thing. Got a tune from Burpod and while it feels great just about everywhere, if you're really hammering it (e.g., up the 10% grade on the Coq), the boost falls off - from the ~2300mbar and then gradually (over the course of maybe 5-10sec), down to 1400mbar and then hangs out there until you ease up.

I've had limp mode and that hits instantly - you feel a sudden "no mas" from the engine; this is a lot more gradual, and as @tdwesty experiences, you get normal power back at once you back off, without cycling the ignition.

Here's a snapshot from logging MB11:
Interesting, that does sound similar to what I am seeing, although I tend not to push it too hard, so rarely spend much time >3K rpm. Power cycling definitely doesn't make a difference, but backing off does.
A short 15km trip today was uneventful, but it was city traffic and no hills, and it seems to take a fairly long hill like the Coq to bring it on.
No time to check anything today, but hoping a new FCM will arrive tomorrow, and I also plan to test the fan thermoswitch.
What tool did you use to log the boost values?
 

P2B

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Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
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2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
I also plan to test the fan thermoswitch.
You can test low speed by removing the switch and immersing it in boiling water, but high speed probably won't kick in. The specs are:

Low speed on at 197-206F (92-97C), off at 183-195F (84-91C).

High speed on at 210-221F (99-105C), off at 195-208F (91-98C)
 

PakProtector

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The PD engines of course run the fuel through the head casting. Higher temperatures does 'injure the fuel' a wee bit. It is not as big a deal as it would look when examining the pump visually( IMO that is ). Sooo, confirm good flow out the feed to the filter, and replace the filter. What you describe sounds like my '04's response to a slowly plugging fuel filter. I had this happen on a Detroit-Washington, DC run to pick up another TDI. Fortunately the seller got me a replacement filter and I was dealing with a pumped car so bleeding was no trouble. The filter replacement fixed it. I suspect that same load of fuel would have stopped an un-pumped ALH in its tracks.

Douglas
 

Nuje

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That does sound like a good, plausible explanation / theory as to the issue, @PakProtector. Both of us are experiencing the issue in high-fuel-demand situations, so if fuel demand can't be met, what one would expect would be reduced power but then "normal" driving (lesser fuel demand) immediately feels normal again.
 

tdwesty

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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Ok, here's an update, and some more info. The new FCM module arrived, but it's an "E" version, not the "J" that I need. But I took the time to do the following tests:
Coolant temp 3 prong switch on radiator
With key in Run, 12V present at pin 2/Red wire.
Jumper on pins 1&2 turns on low speed fan, but only the right fan. Left fan turns freely, but haven't checked any further yet.
Jumper on pins 1&3 does nothing. 1,2,3 jumpered runs only low speed left fan.
This means that my high speed fan never works, and low speed is only 1 fan. Possibly a source of the power loss problem if a high temp condition is reached on a long climb? Hard to know since my temp gauge only works about 2% of the time. I've been putting off installing the new sensor, but it's waiting at home.

I found this other thread relating to stuck high speed fans which has some good info, including the schematic for the FCM system.
https://www.myturbodiesel.com/threads/partially-burnt-ac-relay-1j0919506k-workaround.31880/

Since I had the connectors off, I measured at each pin from the car harness. Below is what I found with the key in run position. First values are from the post above, second in BOLD are mine. Not sure if the differences are meaningful, but the user in that thread found his FCM was fine in the end; the problem was a flaky AC pressure switch connector I believe.
The only significant difference I can see below is that my 14/2 voltage is 3V compared with 10V, but the user on that thread was testing an '02 GTI. I see on the schematic that T14/2 also goes to the injection control module at the windshield.

T4/1: 11.5 V 12V
T4/2: 0 V Gnd
T4/3: 11.5 V 12V
T4/4: 0 V Gnd

and

T14/1: 0 V Open
T14/2: 10 V ~3V
T14/3: 5 mV Gnd
T14/4: 11.5 V 12V
T14/5: x --> open circuit Open
T14/6: 0 V Gnd
T14/7: x --> open circuit Open
T14/8: 8.6 mV Open
T14/9: 11.5 V 12V
T14/10: 0 V Open
T14/11: 2.5 V 3V
T14/12: empty empty
T14/13: varies from 3V to 4V to 10V fluctuating from 3V to 12V every 1s or so
T14/14: x --> open circuit Open

At this point, I will continue to look for a cause for the left fan not running, and the high speed fans also not running. I will also re-seat the coolant temp sensor if I can reach it; so far I can barely even see it. Maybe if I can get the gauge working I can figure out if the power loss is due to an overheat condition. Any other tips welcome. Plan now is to leave early morning to avoid the heat since it looks like the AC isn't going to be working for the trip home.
 

Vince Waldon

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2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
As well, the top of the injector(s) are constantly bathed in engine oil, and as the top seals age some of that oil leaks down into the fuel rails internal to the head and can travel back to the fuel tank, resulting in the black mess some of us have seen when changing out the in-tank lift pump. :)

All of this can further contribute to fuel filter clogging over time.
 

P2B

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Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
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This means that my high speed fan never works, and low speed is only 1 fan.
Since the thermal switch controls the fans directly, you either have faulty fans or harness. You could disconnect the fans and power them individually to verify.
 

tdwesty

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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
A few more updates.
The large left fan is definitely dead, resistance ranging from 1k-ohm to open which varies with motor rotation on both speeds, measured at connector on short wire lead at fan; wiring from connector to fan looks good, so I am assuming bad windings since it varies with rotation, and no response to 12V.
Small right fan works on both speeds with voltage applied to connector at each terminal, but first time I ran in high speed it gave a nasty squeal, then ran fine, suggesting it hasn't run on high for a while. So either the car has not reached high speed fan temps (quite possible), or the FCM is not engaging high speed properly, or the coolant switch high side is not working. Doesn't look like the fan motor is easily serviceable, and sounds like windings are damaged, so I will get a new one. Amazon has them for $85CAD. GermanParts.ca has Febi/Bilstein ones for only a bit more, so I'll go that route.

Was able to remove and re-seat the coolant sensor, which looked fine, hoping the gauge might work better for the trip home until I can replace it. Removed battery tray to check grounds and they look clean and shiny as they were a few years ago when I cleaned them up, so no issue there.
 

tdwesty

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'04 Jetta TDI 5sp, '03 Jetta TDI Wagon Auto
Back to the AC issue, which I will have to deal with at home now. If it turns out to be the compressor clutch coil, can this be replaced without losing refrigerant? And will a generic R134A recharge kit work if I need it?
 
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