best piston/rod combo

[BigTurboAlh]

Whats the stock alh pistons and china beams good for?

 

[john.jackson9213]

Whats the stock alh pistons and china beams good for?

24/25 psi boost before you replace the head gasket and used stronger head bolts.

If you are buying new pistons, then buy the ARL or ASV pistons from the factory 150 hp car. Stronger than the stock ALH pistons. Bora Parts has them for $400 for the set of 4.

If you do a search here on the TDIClub, you will find some very long threads about the Chinese Con Rods on Ebay. Some of the information is quite good.

 

[p0wer]

1Z pistons and 1Z rods seem to be reliable up to 400hp, 600Nm and 3 bar. Can´t blame ALH stock ones would be any worse.

 

[[486]]

I'd be willing to bet most that have had rod failures had bent rods to begin with.
When I tore down my ALH it had obviously been hydrolocked. #2 and 3 were visibly tweaked and the pistons worn very crooked. Ran just fine.

I got the china rods and ARLs, probably could have just gotten used ALH pistons and rods for #2 and #3

 

[Franko6]

I don't know how anybody would think a 1Z piston would push 400hp...

First, the older pistons have no wrist pin bushings. The ASV and ALH engines all have bushings, but only the ASV has an oil galley. That is a big cooling improvement. All engines beginning '04 are designed with oil cooling galleys. The AHU are the least of choices. The ALH only slightly better, although the top compression ring drop is only 6mm; a poor choice for anything except modestly modified engines. The later pistons are 9mm ring drop, which keeps them further away from the heat and the characteristic ring annealing that happens. The ARL's ring drop is 20mm, and that I regard as excellent, but it's an expensive piston and otherwise, looks much like the ASV.

Beginning in the US PD motors and all later TDI models, the rods have beveled wrist pin bushings and the pistons are likewise beveled. This gives better support at the bottom of the rod and the top of the bushings in the pistons. I believe the European versions started the beveled wrist pin arrangement in about 2000.

As for rods, we have bought enough of rods to know, we considered some a gamble. We are done gambling with the run of the mill. Pauter sells a great rod. Lay down about $900+ and you can get a set. We decided after a particularly upsetting situation with our rod provider that we would take control of the issue and now have created our own sets of rods. Our provider has 45 years experience design is excellent and the accuracy is impeccable. Rod Bolts are 3/8" ARP's.

Any engine built above 165 hp should be running Cr/Ni/Mo rods (4140). The argument about I-Beam or H-Beam is moot, as I have already pointed out that building for a battleship; installing in a dinghy creates something of an overkill situation. Our design considered the torsional control of the H-beam rod is superior for a low-speed engine.

Down to the basics; if you are going to replace the pistons, we have found that many of the pistons of the older variety are no cost advantage then the newer and obviously better designed pistons with oil galleys and better wrist pin support. If you are replacing cast steel OEM rods for better 4140 rods, why not upgrade to a stronger rod beveled rod that costs no more than the straight wrist pin rod? Also, the wrist pin for the newer pistons is has beveled ends, which makes the wrist pin about 80 grams lighter. There is nothing wrong with that idea.

The latest upgrades are with the 2.0 nitrided wrist pins in the common rail engines. I don't think we can get them separate of the pistons. The common rail pistons, with it's centered combustion chamber is not adaptable to the VE engines. But the nitrided wrist pins would be a nice addition to high-powered engines.

 

[mturonek461]

Maxspeeding rods off ebay. Even comes with arp bolts for $275 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-...ash=item33b08dcdc1:g:ykwAAOSwL7VWpdHG&vxp=mtr
Nural pistons from rockauto

 

[mrchill]

I'll have to agree with Frank here....running 400 on stock rods wont last. I havent seen or even heard on a 1Z that makes that power with stock internals. And since the good stuff is cheap...why gamble? You can get the boutique rods from folks like Pauter and Carillo and so on...there are many now. Or you can run Integrated rods at a much cheaper price. The Nural pistons have proven to be quite robust. There is really no reason to cheap out on the inside of the engine...there are far to many proven products for sale at bargain prices that you never have to think about after the installation.

 

[BigTurboAlh]

Sounds good. my car is no were near 400hp. I'm limited to a 10mm pump right now. Runs real strong though.

 

[Franko6]

Maxspeeding rods off ebay. Even comes with arp bolts for $275 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-...ash=item33b08dcdc1:g:ykwAAOSwL7VWpdHG&vxp=mtr
Nural pistons from rockauto

Ok, Buy the CRAP. Get the big and little ends fixed before you put them in. But will you get rods balanced at both ends? Not in your life.

Next thing is the pistons are not as good a deal when you buy one set imported from UK. We buy multiple sets to reduce cost per item imported, then we match piston weights that are close to each other for reciprocating sets. Finally we balance the pistons to the rods. It's no more expensive the way we do it and you get better results.

 

[jimbote]

Franko6.... i have seen PD motors both BEW and BRM without oil cooling passages in the piston ... just the other day i removed the rods and pistons from a BRM that did NOT have the oil passage pistons... i also have BEW pistons in the shop some with and some without the passages.... maybe there is a vin number after on both where they all had passages but not all PD's do

 

[[486]]

Ok, Buy the CRAP. Get the big and little ends fixed before you put them in. But will you get rods balanced at both ends? Not in your life.

Next thing is the pistons are not as good a deal when you buy one set imported from UK. We buy multiple sets to reduce cost per item imported, then we match piston weights that are close to each other for reciprocating sets. Finally we balance the pistons to the rods. It's no more expensive the way we do it and you get better results.

yup, my china rods needed to be honed and very well may not be balanced, but I'm buddy-buddy with my machine shop guy, he did them for $40.

rockauto wanted 60 bucks for shipping on my ARLs, so yup again, you're right on about the shipping being a killer.

 

[Digital Corpus]

I balanced the overall weight of my rods, not the big end and small end and my engine is still smoother than stock so...

 

[K.I.T.T.]

Not if sure it's quite 400hp in this config, but the stock IZ block p0wer refers to:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4986506&postcount=61

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKofLl3O2s8

Still going strong afaik. The tune is as important as the hardware.

Ash

 

[p0wer]

Same car... 1Z engine with stock internals. Third year starting now with same setup, just bigger nozzles changed month ago. Dynoed 377HP/600+Nm last autumn with small ( 0.341mm ) nozzles. New ones are with bit less than half mm holes, hope to have 400hp without NOS.

 

[sam-]

Hello,

Excuse me, my brother and me arent experienced mechanist but do you have tips to lower piston CR like you have on your 1z engine please ?
By the way, from where come your bigger nozzles ?

Same car... 1Z engine with stock internals. Third year starting now with same setup, just bigger nozzles changed month ago. Dynoed 377HP/600+Nm last autumn with small ( 0.341mm ) nozzles. New ones are with bit less than half mm holes, hope to have 400hp without NOS.

 

[Digital Corpus]

Stock 1Z engine has 19.5:1 CR and the CR engines have a 18.5:1 CR if memory serves. Anyhow, this thread is a little derailed...

 

[p0wer]

I don't know how anybody would think a 1Z piston would push 400hp...

First, the older pistons have no wrist pin bushings. The ASV and ALH engines all have bushings, but only the ASV has an oil galley. That is a big cooling improvement.

I´ve never seen bushless TDI pistons, all 1Z´s has also been with exactly same pistons than AHU´s and AGR´s. I think there haven´t been bushless pistons on euro markets and it´s only a problem of some older engines on US markets. I have ´94 engine on Golf, and propably it would be already failed with bushless pistons.

What comes for the oil gallery in pistons. That´s true its good update for piston cooling. However, i´ve also seen some splitted pistons which has always been with oil gallery. Never seen cracks on on old style piston, from my opinion, oil gallery makes piston bit weaker for cracks. Personally i havent got any problems on either pistons on highly tuned engines, so cannot really make any opinions which is better or so. When i see a durability problem, i update after a engine fail or two. But havent seen any problems yet on any stock part on these engines. Once one 550 000km driven AHU block with 250hp setup has been splitted on 2 and started to drip oil though.

What i want to say guys. Leave all of those "stage1, stage2, stage3" softwares, they are CRAP. Make proper custom tune, and you will have better durability and power.

running 400 on stock rods wont last

Yea may be, still few horses below. Won´t still replace them before fail.

 

[mk1-83]

Power, yes drop that stage bs, when you do tunining youre do all custom work.
very early audi 80 1993 1.9tdi have the weak pistons. all the golf mk3 tdi have good pistons.

 

[[486]]

What i want to say guys. Leave all of those "stage1, stage2, stage3" softwares, they are CRAP. Make proper custom tune, and you will have better durability and power.

heh, I think that most ITT are well beyond such meaningless consumer-grade terminology

 

[Franko6]

JImbote, yes there are a few BEW's with no oil galleys in the pistons. Don't know what to say about that, as they are bevel wrist pins. They are mutts in my opinion.

POwer, the 1Z and AHU engines in the US have no bronze bushing in the wrist pin. That does make a huge difference.

Most of the broken pistons we can attribute to runaway or overfueling injectors. That is assuming it isn't a 400 hp 1Z engine...

Although we know many who have claimed EGT's never got too out of whack, the gauge cannot tell if one cylinder is running way hot. Melted and cracked pistons is the result.

Corpus, the US version CBEA and CJAA Common Rail are 18.1:1, and the 125Kw (160hp) Euro versions are 16.5:1. Can't tell you about the EA 288 for sure, but I think it is also 16.5:1

 

[Digital Corpus]

If your 1z is from a 97, it likely has bushing on the pistons. I'll link photos to my stock ones if I need to...

 

[jimbote]

frank... iirc all AHU pistons are bronze bushed and are practically identical to ALH pistons... also i see more BEW's without oil passages than i do with... would you like to see BRM pistons without the oil cooling passages ?... i have a few sets here and would be happy to snap some pictures

 

[spider21]

Great thread guys. Mine is going in the shop in may for rods, pistons, head, cam.. Last I checked my pistons are going to have a swain coating put on them also.

 

[BigTurboAlh]

Frank06, I saw your rod thread I'm gonna get a set off you for my next build.

 

[waynemodz]

Maxspeeding rods off ebay. Even comes with arp bolts for $275 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-...ash=item33b08dcdc1:g:ykwAAOSwL7VWpdHG&vxp=mtr
Nural pistons from rockauto

I know this is an old post,

But did anyone go the maxspeeding+nural route?
Are these rods what they claim too be?

 

[BigTurboAlh]

yeah they wok but make sure you get them checked out by a machine shop cause a friend of mine got a set and they needed resized and one had a .002 twist in it

 

[Franko6]

JIm, I have to disagree with you on at least the older 1Z and AHU. They don't have bushings. We know several BEW's without oil galleys and just a couple of BRM's without that surprised us. We don't need pics, seen plenty up close and personal. I think the ones saying they never say AHU's or earlier without bushings are European models. I also know the late models upgraded, but we have the pistons to prove it. Maybe VW dumped some junk on US.

BigTurboAlh, I appreciate that. I look forward to working with you.

But the last post, I have to consider. For example, if we were to lose 1 out of 20 turbos(5%), we would be 'upside down' compared to using turbos with lower failure rates. We have a reputation to maintain and it is based on reliability.

So, if we get a part into the shop and the first thing we have to do is fix it, it's the WRONG PART! Also, consider the quality control, which my opinion of the Far Eastern 'quality control' is, every part is good, so you don't even have to check them. After all, give or take .001" is close enough, right? HAH!

But what you can't check very well is the metallurgy. If they are going to be sloppy with the sizing, why would they be accurate with the metallurgy? Inclusions of sillcon or carbon stripes can weaken a rod. What are you going to do about that? The best thing to do is work with a company that historically makes quality parts. I'm not into taking chances with someone else's engine.

 

[GOFAST]

i had a "95 golf MK3 1Z.
and it had no bushing on the pistons.

I believe a lower CR and PD pistons and rods are key for better reliability.

 

[mturonek461]

I know this is an old post,
But did anyone go the maxspeeding+nural route?
Are these rods what they claim too be?

My brother has this combo of piston/rods in his Golf along with the same mods in my sig. 200+ hp with over 13k miles so far so good. The whole rotating assembly was balanced.

 

[Franko6]

Just so everyone knows, we balance all our rod sets to the Nural pistons for a very close final balance. if you want to include the crank, send it and we'll add the crank for $100.

So, if you consider what it costs to balance the assembly, check big end clearances and correct, make sure the rods are correct length, and then hope the metallurgy is good, is that really a good deal? The harder you push it, the bigger the gamble.