Best Oil Yet? Renewable Lubricants: BioSyn 5w-40

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
Could this be the best oil yet(?) for a 2006 PD BRM with 260,000 kilometres

Iron........17
Copper......2
Lead.........0
Alum........5
Tin...........0
Chromium.0

34000 kilometres on cheap Febi cam and Biosyn 5w-40. The first oil change was 12000 kilometres and then the second was 22000 km. and one full year. I do have a bypass filter put on after breakin.

This is the third cam and the first two were VW OEM. First lasted 83000 kilometres(50,000 mi) and so the second was replaced under warranty and the second it lasted 137000 kilometres(85000 miles).

Comparison here: Wjdell car was not a cam eater. His S9000 oil was the best of the BRM after 3 UOA at 3.562 wear metals per 1000 miles. My first UOA throwing caution to the wind at 13750 miles is 2.12. Both numbers are adjusted for 4.5 l. to compensate for the bypass additional oil.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=441194&page=4

There have been changes made to stabilize the cam and prevent it from being pushed up and down from valve and injection loads.

I am hoping that if some others can run the oil and see a significant difference then we can determine the effect of the oil. Otherwise I have no way of telling. If others see a dramatic effect then it is mostly oil. If they see no or very little improvement then it is the stabilizing of the cam that is effective.

If anybody out there with a BRM can show good numbers please post also.
 
Last edited:

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
James & Son, thank for your informative and, what seems to me, a well documented data analysis in a relatively short paragraph.

A couple of questions come to mind:

1) How much to attribute the decrease of wear metals (especially iron) to 'changes made to stabilize the cam' vs Wjdell (which I assume to be stock)?

2) What is the NOACK Volatility of this oil (RL Bio-SynXtra 5W-40)? My search shows 10 but I wanted to confirm, since it seems somewhat high for these types of oil (expect much lower based on this link you posted earlier http://biosynthetic.com/biosynthetic-base-oil/lubricant-technical-performance)
 
Last edited:

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
tikal; 1) You can answer that question for me since you have a UOA history of your motor after your cam shaft replacement. Try a run with this oil and we will know. I do not understand why this oil would be any better than others. I thought it would be incrementally better. It could be a dramatic compatibility with the DLC coating or black carbon coating of the follower.

2) I think you are right about the NOACK at 10. That link is of another base stock developed only recently and has nothing to do with Renewable Lubricants that I am aware of.

Interestingly I think S9000 has around the same NOACK value but has a much lower velocity index and it is suppose to be all synthetic but a mix of PAO and groupIII
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Right now I have a Fuchs oil (Titan GT1 Pro C3) with a NOACK value of 6.9 according to a VOA at oil-club.ru and 7.7 according to www.fuchs-oil.ru. Based on discussions here and at bobistheoilguy.com it supposed to have a mix of ester organic oils too. I will not have a UOA until probably late Spring or early summer.

After talking with Biosynthetic Technologies (Jake I think was his name) I realized that there is no relationship (at this point) with Renewable Lubricants. On paper the base oil presented by Biosynthetic is outstanding but we need to wait until the commercial companies put it on the shelves to purchase and have independent UOAs.

Anyways, good discussion on this new technology. It seems promising.
 

narongc73

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
VA/OH
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Don't waste your time on oil. It's not the oil that's causing the wear. It's just bad design that doesn't affect all BRMs. 215.6k and I'm still on the original cam.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
This Oil Is Better for DLC Follower

Significant majority of the iron wear is from the cam in the pump duse motors especially if the DLC( diamond like carbon) coating fractures and scores on the follower. Ideally it must wear away very very slowly and the only way that can happen is by reducing wear at start up and shut down.

This science paper (read conclusions) provides the wear tests and wear results that support the better than usual UOA I have had with my cheap replacement cam and Renewable Lubricants vegetable oil.

The lubrication of DLC coatings with mineral and biodegradable oils having different polar and saturation characteristics
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ifferent_polar_and_saturation_characteristics

click download for PDF
 
Last edited:

loudspl

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
Is a higher HTHS better in this application? Better resistance to shearing?

Redline's 5w-40 has a 4.4 HTHS. Almost like a 50-wt. oil for protection but still flows decent when cold.

The Renewable Lubricants oils do have higher VIs....but are there any other advantages to a RL oil vs. a group 5 synthetic like Redline?
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
loudspl, non conformable contacts, cam and follower, along with conformable contacts, journal bearings, under high pressure generate the high shear and in turn the high temperature you are talking about. That is fine I think we all know what to do about that. Ideally you run a 5w-40 with a maximum of 14 cst for the average car.

What we are complacent about is finding an oil that is compatible with the DLC( diamond like carbon) coated follower. This is especially important at start up and shut down. Zddp is suppost to do that along with a natural boundary lubricant, usually derivatives of glycerol (oilyness).

In the first 0/20,000 miles of the cam life( ideally the first 20 minutes) the cam lobes need to be mated and smooth to a point where there is no sign of oval contact markings on the cam nose.

Somewhere between 40,000 to 80,000 miles the DLC coating will wear through and this is the critical stage where the cam lives or dies. If you are using an oil that allows very low wear on the DLC coating then it will not fracture as it becomes very thin and wears through to the nitrided steel. If you get past this critical stage then any of the usual oils will work fine because you are dealing with steel on steel which the normal oils are designed for.

Now I have a problem. I am at 20,000 miles and have 7 lobes with no oval cam nose markings but #3 intake has a small oval mark. That mark can get better or it can lead to micro pitting which is a frosted surface roughness which is likely the cause of the oval ring, the mark itself.

Zddp is now your enemy as it is protecting the nose from mating. Believe it or not you need a friction modifier to reduce the friction that causes the zddp to form over the contact. This reduces the stresses that causes the zddp to form in the first place and provides enough time in between zddp induced tribofilm formation for the nose to mate in.

This is well documented in gears wear this is a particular problem. I am saying I need 8 good lobes before the DLC wears through. I think the right combination of boundary layer additives will delay the formation of zddp on start up to allow that nose to fully breakin before it stresses the very thin DLC as it wears through to prevent delamination and scoring.

I am counting on the Renewable Lubricants Inc. vegetable oil and additives to have that right combination.
 

romad

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
Prescott, AZ
TDI
2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
IIRC, didn't VW require the use of 5w-30 oil in the BRM? For the BEW the requirement was 5w-40 with 5w-30 allowed if the former wasn't available. Based on the posts here on TDIClub, most damaged cams had been fed a steady diet of 5w-30 while those fed 5w-40 had vastly reduced cam wear. I believe your success is more due to it being a 5w-40 oil rather than a vegie-based product.

Oh, I did a quick check on Amazon and the prices are:

3 gallons for $220.91 or $73.63/gal
2 gallons for $147.19 or $73.59/gal
1 gallon for $45.12 (if you are an Amazon Prime member)

And people complain about the high price of Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 at around $25.00/gallon!
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
I paid 58.00 CDN. That is equal to 43/45.00 US. When you considering the base stock 40 to 60 % is PAO and 30 to 40% high oleic acid derived vegtable oil with a non shearing 185 velocity index over 22000 kilometers or 13750 miles, it is a premium oil from a small manufacture, yes it is going to be expensive, but only if it did not provide results.

I have got a cheap Febi cam and yet the average wear for PD cams is 40 parts of iron in 8000 miles according to Blackburn Oil Analysis.

A good wearing Franko6 cam in 10,000 miles has 25 to 28 parts per million (see#3397 in link) with 5w-40. My cam at 13750 miles had 17 parts iron and if you adjust for the added quart in the by pass you have 21 parts and if you adjust back to 10,000 miles it is 16 parts per million.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=154548&page=227

That is an improvement of 40% in iron wear. Now I am not positive why I have this good result. If you read my link in #6 post it is likely the good compatibility with DLC coated follower. This is with a cheap Febi cam that Franko6 says is ground poorly and I agree it is but it is not a regrind and therefore is cheap.

You say what I have accomplished is due to viscosity. I think most people would wonder at such a simplistic answer. If it were only viscosity we would all be running 5w-50 oil. ediff tried a 20w-50 oil and increased wear on his BEW and went back to 5w-40 TDT.

This fall I will be changing my timing belt. I will pull the cam and take pictures. If everything is wearing slowly it should show as I will have 56000 kilometers on the cam.
 
Last edited:

shaark92

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Location
Erath County, Texas
TDI
06 Jetta, manual. '12 Jetta, DSG
James ...
Terry Dyson recommended this brand for my 6.7 F350. I've considered switching to it for my TDI from the Amsoil. I'll be taking a sample and sending to Dyson Analysis in the next month/so. The Ford 6.7 is susceptible to fuel dilution, so I'll be interested to see how that goes in the Ford with the DPF deleted and EGR blocked ... and the RLI BioSyn.
My concern is the shear strength and compliance with 505.01 spec. Thanks for taking the plunge! Next sample, consider using Terry. He does a full service debrief with ya and interview regarding the setup/conditions/etc ... then makes recommendation.
I'll be following your progress on this. Again, thanks!
Al
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Why Bio-Syn mediocre NOACK value?

One question that remains for me in regards to this RLI Bio-SynXtra HD PLUS SHP 5W-40 oil (Low Ash) is the published NOACK Volatility of 10. It seems so high for a HOBS oil of these characteristics. How was the oil consumption using this oil in your BRM engine?


Could this be the best oil yet(?) for a 2006 PD BRM with 260,000 kilometres

Iron........17
Copper......2
Lead.........0
Alum........5
Tin...........0
Chromium.0

34000 kilometres on cheap Febi cam and Biosyn 5w-40. The first oil change was 12000 kilometres and then the second was 22000 km. and one full year. I do have a bypass filter put on after breakin.

This is the third cam and the first two were VW OEM. First lasted 83000 kilometres(50,000 mi) and so the second was replaced under warranty and the second it lasted 137000 kilometres(85000 miles).

Comparison here: Wjdell car was not a cam eater. His S9000 oil was the best of the BRM after 3 UOA at 3.562 wear metals per 1000 miles. My first UOA throwing caution to the wind at 13750 miles is 2.12. Both numbers are adjusted for 4.5 l. to compensate for the bypass additional oil.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=441194&page=4

There have been changes made to stabilize the cam and prevent it from being pushed up and down from valve and injection loads.

I am hoping that if some others can run the oil and see a significant difference then we can determine the effect of the oil. Otherwise I have no way of telling. If others see a dramatic effect then it is mostly oil. If they see no or very little improvement then it is the stabilizing of the cam that is effective.

If anybody out there with a BRM can show good numbers please post also.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
One question that remains for me in regards to this RLI Bio-SynXtra HD PLUS SHP 5W-40 oil (Low Ash) is the published NOACK Volatility of 10. It seems so high for a HOBS oil of these characteristics. How was the oil consumption using this oil in your BRM engine?
Yes i was concerned about the viscosity. Normally any of the 5w-40 mineral synthetics such as TDT, S9000 will shear at least about 5 to 8%.
This oil was 15.7 cst with a 185 VI index as measured by Terry lab.

I checked with RLI and this is what they said.

Can this oil go 22000 kilometers and keep the viscosity inline at 14 cst?

To be accurate on this you should provide me the batch number, but Terry should have the base line as a new oil. I did go back in our lab and checked the QC on past formulas and because of customer request, they were all 15 to 15.5 cSt.
Edit: VI was 182 on UOA

So yes the viscosity went up slightly but not much. Was this due to volatility? I was surprised that terry did not provide the flash point in my UOA. Remember I did have some water and fuel dilution caused by retarded injection timing and a plugged air filter although it was not excessive for going 13750 miles. You can see the TBN was high enough to control oxidation and the TAN is about right for the oil.

To answer your question I would say I added 3/4 of a quart to 1 quart at the most. It did seem like I used more oil at the beginning than at the end of the oil interval which is opposite to normal.

I am thinking of ordering a gallon of 5w-30 and mixing half and half to get the 13/14 cst oil but I am not going to do this until I pull the cam and do the timing belt this fall. I want to verify by a second UOA, low iron wear first.

Edit: as far as I am concerned if my second UOA checks out good and the viscosity is not due to oxidation then I will adjust it down slightly by mixing with the 5w-30. If I see no increase in wear i will keep bringing it down as low as possible.
 
Last edited:

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Thanks James and Son for the quick answer. I look forward your next cam inspection in the Fall 2017 and your results.

Also I wondered about the low amount of copper in your UOA as my understanding is that these RLI oils have a very large amount of copper as an additive (info from the site bobistheoilguy.com).
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
You have to read the various patents. I don't think he has to use copper as an additive in all products. As long as he has antimony along with vegetable oil plus another base stock plus generic add pack his product can not be copied.

They use the copper in most industrial applications as an anti-oxidant with phosphorus as the EP additive. The copper has a long life.

I think in one of his patents he says to much is antagonistic with Zddp, thus the change using only zddp, antimony, boron, calcium rather than copper.

The antimony plus calcium and boron are used as multi-functional additives to provide the anti-oxidants the copper provides. The copper works better with EP of phosphorus, sulfur and nitrogen ( going by memory), would suit more in his gear oil products.

This is what I can gather but don't hold me to it.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Thanks for the feedback James & Son. Boron is good stuff. Imagine when you get a balanced formulation between a HOBS base oil and a Nano Hex-Boron Nitride in your high performance turbo engine!!!
 

romad

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
Prescott, AZ
TDI
2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
I remember back in the 60s when Atlantic Richfield was touting Boron in their gasoline!
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I am not sure how much 'research' was done on the 60's concerning Boron in gasoline but there is plenty of accredited research and on the field tests regarding the benefits of boron (among other additives) for automotive lubrication purposes.

I presume that as tailpipe emissions become more stringent (such as with the VW 507 oils) the role of boron and other similar non-traditional oil additives will become more prominent.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
The Audi developed RLI 5w-40 oil has two forms or formulations. One is CI4 rated and the low ash is CJ4 rated.

Here is some UOA dating back to when the oil was first brought on the market. Note that the the latest version ( see my UOA in first post) has no copper but to fall within the patient must have antimony.

The copper is replaced with boron and calcium and zinc, phosphorous and antimony are adjusted to meet the low ash.

Look at the fuel dilution and viscosity as well in link below

I did play down the importance of viscosity by itself. My circumstances( ralative short distances, 18 kilometers to and 18 return, to start stops) require the RLI 5w-40 oil to stay at 14 cst with a high VI of 190. The ester is an excellant boundary lubricant for start stop wear and the VI provides the reduced wear in the warm up zone of the engine.

The UOA's show some interesting data in regards to the viscosity verus UOA distance.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...b=printthread&Board=48&main=86894&type=thread

edit: the RLI site can be frustrating. I go to the Tech and SDS pull down and click on motor oils. Everything is there in proper order making it much easier to compare different formulations.

edit: update to a previous post on oil flash temp: Dyson Analysis says this: flashpoint is only used for your run of the mill basic analysis. better tools provide a much more in depth aprailsal to actually tune direct injection on performance engines.
 
Last edited:

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
You can't compare wear rates of the same engine with and without a bypass oil filter. All things being equal, the micro-filtration will yield lower levels of wear. This is particularly true of valve train and piston/cylinder wear, which directly correlates to soot & silicon levels in the used oil.

TS
 

cheezy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2002
Location
Madison
TDI
99 NB, 96 B4V
You can't compare wear rates of the same engine with and without a bypass oil filter. All things being equal, the micro-filtration will yield lower levels of wear. This is particularly true of valve train and piston/cylinder wear, which directly correlates to soot & silicon levels in the used oil.
TS
Yeah, @ $44 per gallon I'd go bypass as well....
 
Top