Best Brakes for Autocross and track

[tothemax]

I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask this question. this is my first time posting in this part of the forum.

I just got a 03 2 door golf... finally ... It came off the transport truck tonight and I drove it for the first time. I plan to build it up as a bit of a race car. I want to do a little drag but mostly autocross and eventually track.

I know many of you ... including Peter... are going for very light cars and opt for the standard TDI brakes w/ upgraded pads.

I was planning an upgrade to the GLI vented rotors and calipers front and back. This obviously adds a little weight but the rotors are only a few pounds more.

I have a feeling that more braking power will be needed for autocross and i think I will benefit from the greater braking power. Plus I just drove my new golf with stock brake set up tonight and what difference in braking power to my Jetta w/ GLI brakes and Akebono pads. Night and day.

So I am looking for some thoughts from those who are experienced at track and autocross of whether to go for GLI brake upgrade.

tnx for your help.

 

[66Stang]

I am also interested in an answer, but am thinking an aftermarket brake upgrade.

Chris

 

[dr61]

Braking is much less of an issue on most autocross courses compared to road race tracks. When autocrossing you will not spend much time braking, and the brakes will not usually get too hot . I suggest good performance pads and new fluid with careful bleeding; later if you take up track driving then upgrade to larger rotors make sense.

 

[Stealth TDI]

I agree with the comment above. A brake upgrade is unnecessary unless you find yourself experiencing brake fade. Odds are you will not find fade after you have better pads/fluid. If you track the car and need the extra braking, then upgrade then. But be advised brake upgrades may land you in a higher class.

Good Luck!

 

[66Stang]

Did exactly that...bled the brakes yesterday for next Sunday's autocross.

Feel the difference on the street already.

Chris

 

[mech644]

To the OP: how much power are you adding to the car? Unless you are going 200+hp a "blueprinted" stock brake setup will be fine. By that I mean full fluid flush and bleed, SS braided lines, ceramic pads, cross drilled/slotted rotors(maybe even cryo treatment).
If you can using a dial indicator check runout with rotors mounted and torqued on hubs. I fabbed a torque plate by cutting center section from an alloy wheel with a trashed rim. Sometimes even NIB rotors will have a little runout when torqued to hub. A small amount of runout can reduce brake effectiveness.
Reducing unsprung weight (principaly wheel and tire) will also improve brake system efficiency, as well as handling. And get rid off any weight in the car you can tolerate living without.

 

[tothemax]

Tnx partner,

I am planning on right around 200 or hopefully more w/ ASV pistons, rosten rods, 11 mm pump, race injectors, RC6, w/m and a larger vnt 22 hybrid turbo (hopefully produced this spring). Right now, I'll be putting everything together with a 17/22 until the vnt 22 hybrid turbo is available. But I still expect over 200 with the initial set up.

I got some akebono pads and cross drilled/slotted rotors whihc I have not yet received and installed. i can do the bleed w/ the blue racing stuff as well. but ....

Where can you get ss braided lines for the rear? The only ones I found from ECS tuning do not work for the rear.

To the OP: how much power are you adding to the car? Unless you are going 200+hp a "blueprinted" stock brake setup will be fine. By that I mean full fluid flush and bleed, SS braided lines, ceramic pads, cross drilled/slotted rotors(maybe even cryo treatment).
If you can using a dial indicator check runout with rotors mounted and torqued on hubs. I fabbed a torque plate by cutting center section from an alloy wheel with a trashed rim. Sometimes even NIB rotors will have a little runout when torqued to hub. A small amount of runout can reduce brake effectiveness.
Reducing unsprung weight (principaly wheel and tire) will also improve brake system efficiency, as well as handling. And get rid off any weight in the car you can tolerate living without.

 

[mech644]

The ECS rear SS lines are correct for A4, they just don't got where you think they should go. There are actually 6 brake hoses on A4s; 2 on the front, 4 on the rear- 2 shortys that go under rear twist beam axle and 2 more from axle arm to calipers.
ECS's SS lines (and everone elses) only include the short one for under axle. I have yet to find any place that has the other 2 rear lines in braided SS. If someone makes them IBW or TDIRacing may know.
I would consider gettings these http://www.tyrolsport.com/index.php?p=product&id=124&parent=64 for your front calipers.

 

[tothemax]

Tnx,

I was thinking about getting these when I did the GLI brake upgrade on my Jetta. I think I will go with these for sure since I will be staying with the stock size caliper and rotors.

Also when you said braided hoses, you meant the front only?

What's the point of upgrading only 2 out of the four for the rear?

P

The ECS rear SS lines are correct for A4, they just don't got where you think they should go. There are actually 6 brake hoses on A4s; 2 on the front, 4 on the rear- 2 shortys that go under rear twist beam axle and 2 more from axle arm to calipers.
ECS's SS lines (and everone elses) only include the short one for under axle. I have yet to find any place that has the other 2 rear lines in braided SS. If someone makes them IBW or TDIRacing may know.
I would consider gettings these http://www.tyrolsport.com/index.php?p=product&id=124&parent=64 for your front calipers.

 

[andrew1984]

Coming from experience....


Do not worry about big brake kits and the like.

All you need are a set of good pads, such as HAWKS.

HAWK Pluses front and regular HAWKS in rear.

SS lines are good but not necessary.

Make sure you have good clean brake fluid and you will be more than adequate for what you want to do.

Cheers.
- A. Cordeiro

 

[Drivbiwire]

Cross drilled = Lower mass = FASTER to FAIL!

Cross drilled brakes are all about looks and you lose all credibility when you show up to a real racing event with gimic aftermarket drill press rotors.

When you see REAL cross drilled brakes, they are actually NOT drilled but CAST in cooling ports! Porsche, MB etc DO NOT drill the rotors but the holes are instead cast into the metal.

When the cooling ports are integrated into the rotors, the rotors mass is taken into account and the total mass of the rotor is increased to compensate for those channels.

When you buy aftermarket rotors they start with STOCK rotors, DRILL out the material and REDUCE the mass! In addition they reduce the contact area of the pad and INCREASE the amount of heat transmitted to the rotors contact areas and the amount of brake energy that the iron must absorb is HIGHER ie more thermal stress on the rotor!

If your brake system is anything less than CARBON/CARBON braking then you REALLY need to pay attention to mass! FYI Real racing brakes DO NOT USE CROSS DRILLING, ie COOLING PORTS! They rely on the same type of cooling your stock front rotors use which draws air in between the two contact surfaces to remove the heat. Below are true "Carbon/Carbon" brakes:

Another issue is that most of these rotors are cheap pig iron. The iron is somewhat more brittle due to low quality production techniques. Pig iron because of the lower amount of graphite and higher amounts of carbide are more inclinde to cracking and fracturing when heated. When these parts sellers drill them, the compounding effects of Drilling + Pig iron characteristics = potential for total rotor failure!.

True ported rotors are made from gray iron and are cast that way. To compensate for the holes the size of the rotor is increased and the pads contact dimensions are also further increased. The gray iron is able to dissipate that additional heat to the rotor and the softer characteristics permit the increased expansion and contraction of the metal to not lead to cracking or failure.

If you tested solid rotors against aftermarket "Cross-Drilled" the cross drilled would reach fade FIRST ie you would have a loss of braking.

Solution:

Route cooling ducts to each of the front rotors. The rotor uses centrifigal type cooling channels that will draw in the cooler air and displace it outward. Bringing in cooler air to the inner portion of the brakes will improve the cooling characteristics without sacrificing mass and brake energy absorbtion ability.

Read all about brakes and the casting process:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/tutorial-ihm_1_.pdf

 

[tothemax]

Tnx,

After reading your post, I got some plain rotors and Akebono pads.

Cross drilled = Lower mass = FASTER to FAIL!

Cross drilled brakes are all about looks and you lose all credibility when you show up to a real racing event with gimic aftermarket drill press rotors.

When you see REAL cross drilled brakes, they are actually NOT drilled but CAST in cooling ports! Porsche, MB etc DO NOT drill the rotors but the holes are instead cast into the metal.

When the cooling ports are integrated into the rotors, the rotors mass is taken into account and the total mass of the rotor is increased to compensate for those channels.

When you buy aftermarket rotors they start with STOCK rotors, DRILL out the material and REDUCE the mass! In addition they reduce the contact area of the pad and INCREASE the amount of heat transmitted to the rotors contact areas and the amount of brake energy that the iron must absorb is HIGHER ie more thermal stress on the rotor!

If your brake system is anything less than CARBON/CARBON braking then you REALLY need to pay attention to mass! FYI Real racing brakes DO NOT USE CROSS DRILLING, ie COOLING PORTS! They rely on the same type of cooling your stock front rotors use which draws air in between the two contact surfaces to remove the heat. Below are true "Carbon/Carbon" brakes:

Another issue is that most of these rotors are cheap pig iron. The iron is somewhat more brittle due to low quality production techniques. Pig iron because of the lower amount of graphite and higher amounts of carbide are more inclinde to cracking and fracturing when heated. When these parts sellers drill them, the compounding effects of Drilling + Pig iron characteristics = potential for total rotor failure!.

True ported rotors are made from gray iron and are cast that way. To compensate for the holes the size of the rotor is increased and the pads contact dimensions are also further increased. The gray iron is able to dissipate that additional heat to the rotor and the softer characteristics permit the increased expansion and contraction of the metal to not lead to cracking or failure.

If you tested solid rotors against aftermarket "Cross-Drilled" the cross drilled would reach fade FIRST ie you would have a loss of braking.

Solution:

Route cooling ducts to each of the front rotors. The rotor uses centrifigal type cooling channels that will draw in the cooler air and displace it outward. Bringing in cooler air to the inner portion of the brakes will improve the cooling characteristics without sacrificing mass and brake energy absorbtion ability.

Read all about brakes and the casting process:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/tutorial-ihm_1_.pdf

 

[RabbitGTI]

Most important thing for autocross is pedal feel and making sure you have a short pedal. That means new rotors, pads, brakes bled, e-brake properly adjusted, etc... Don't overlook rear pads and rotors, they don't do much, but if they are worn, you get a lot more pedal travel. I really like ATE slotted rotors and Pagid pads for autox and street. Very good wear and excellent pedal feel, don't cost much either. That rotor and pad combination seems to last longer than OE rotors.

 

[EBG18T]

The OEM sized rotors, good fresh fluid and good pads are fine for auto-x.

Personally i prefer the Ferrodo DS2500 f&r for auto-x and at trackdays with less braking. Some courses are harder on brakes then others. Some folks like the hawk HP+. I also have run the SBS track pro (between the ferrodo 2500 & 3000) pads, but they are hard to get for oem calipers. I don't have much exp with pagid

For the track i bump up to the Ferrodo DS3000 front w/ ds2500 rear and this has been a good HPDE track pad setup. I can run 20 minute run groups all day with no fade and good solid feel.

With all that being said i do run an Alcon BBK & larger Alcon rear rotors on my A4 since it was actually lighter than my OEM setup and the a4 is an overwieght & underpowered pig, but i run oem sized rotors on the TDi when we run it in the HDPE days.

 

[tothemax]

Tnx guys,

Got new rotors front and rear as well as new pads front and rear. Will bleed for sure. Also intend to use the blue racing stuff.

P

 

[RabbitGTI]

Tnx guys,

Got new rotors front and rear as well as new pads front and rear. Will bleed for sure. Also intend to use the blue racing stuff.

P

I don't know how much the blue brake fluid is, but check out Castrol LMA, it's not expensive at all and works great.

 

[sootie]

Stock fronts, good pads that brake hard when cool. I run stock fronts, Metal pads, yep all metal pads old school, the squeal like pigs, but brake hard enough to lock up the Hoosie A rubber. I run the stock drums out back with stock pads.

It would be completely different for a track car.

 

[tothemax]

Tnx partner, i'll look the the Castrol LMA at the parts store near me. i know they have the blue stuff b/c I bought it before.

I don't know how much the blue brake fluid is, but check out Castrol LMA, it's not expensive at all and works great.

 

[eurojulien]

Coming from experience....


Do not worry about big brake kits and the like.

All you need are a set of good pads, such as HAWKS.

HAWK Pluses front and regular HAWKS in rear.

SS lines are good but not necessary.

Make sure you have good clean brake fluid and you will be more than adequate for what you want to do.

Cheers.
- A. Cordeiro

Says the guy running:

Brakes: Front Brembo 4 piston fixed caliper disc, 365 mm, Rear Lucas single piston floating Caliper disc, 255 mm.

I gave my factory TDI brakes a chance, a few miles of aggressive mountain driving and they were doneski (faded).
I've swapped to gli/20th all the way around with EBC green stuff (I like hawk HP+ better though) and superblue fluid. I lasted roughly 25 minutes before they started fading, albiet I do have a tendency to brake late.
I know I'm not the norm, but I wouldn't advise running factory sized brakes on track for anyone who really pushes their car.

Julien

 

[ChippedNotBroken]

Brakes are for sissys, the whole idea of racing is to go fast and brakes just slow you down

Quote from my brother when he heard he had a brake issue before going out to race on a mud track claiming race.

Says the guy running:

Brakes: Front Brembo 4 piston fixed caliper disc, 365 mm, Rear Lucas single piston floating Caliper disc, 255 mm.

I gave my factory TDI brakes a chance, a few miles of aggressive mountain driving and they were doneski (faded).
I've swapped to gli/20th all the way around with EBC green stuff (I like hawk HP+ better though) and superblue fluid. I lasted roughly 25 minutes before they started fading, albiet I do have a tendency to brake late.
I know I'm not the norm, but I wouldn't advise running factory sized brakes on track for anyone who really pushes their car.

Julien