Best automatic transmission

[RabbitGTI]

What maker and models have the most reliable autobox in the last 10 years or so?

 

[GoFaster]

Any particular criteria on vehicle type?

It's hard to find information on what's good, only on what's bad.

 

[RabbitGTI]

I was hoping to smoke Oilhammer out Might have to buy a used car with auto for a family member. Small sedan that is safe with a reasonable chance the autobox won't puke.

 

[bhtooefr]

I'll venture a guess that it's actually the Prius and any other vehicle using the PSD (such as Ford's hybrids).

It's inherently far simpler than even a manual transmission, and has no real wear items unlike most CVTs, and no hydraulic control - one planetary gear set, no belt, no clutches, no torque converter, no valve body, no syncros. Well, except the electric motors are required to work for it to actually set a gear ratio, so the battery is a wear item of the transmission...

 

[GoFaster]

Good point. The Priuses have an extremely good reliability record, battery and all. Too bad I hate driving them, but for a point-A-to-point-B appliance for someone who doesn't care about driving (most people) they're fine.

 

[bhtooefr]

Well, that's what the Ford Fusion Hybrid is for.

It's the Prius for people who hate Priuses. (Shame it's a sedan.)

(Atkinson-cycle version of the Duratec 23 or 25, and in the Fusion (which shares a platform with the Mazda6, meaning there's actually a chance of making it mildly entertaining to drive with suspension upgrades), but with a Prius-based driveline.)

 

[hevster1]

While the Prius is good, I would take a properly maintained Corolla any day. I also wouldn't take much stock in how great the media said the Prius is. I have seen plenty with problems. However, overall they are reliable.

 

[oilhammer]

Aisin traditonally builds the best autoboxes, hands down easy winner. However, lately even they have had some issues on the FWD applications with valve bodies spazzing out.

Aisins are used in all Toyota/Lexus/Scion/Hino/Daihatsu models, some Mitsubishi, Jeep, Volvo and Kia longitudinal applications, as well as most FWD Volvo applications. They also can be found in all T'reg/Q7/Cayenne automatics, all the 5 cyl Golf/Jetta/Passats as well as some 2.0L 4 cyl NBs, the new Fiat 500, many Suzuki products, and the new Ram Cab Chassis with the 6.7L Cummins engine. Both GM and Ford also use an Aisin 6sp autobox in some transverse applications like the Taurus, Five Hundred, Equinox, etc.

Jatco units are in all Nissans, most Subarus, and some Volkswagens, Ford/Mazda/Jaguars.

ZF will be supplying the new 9sp transverse application for the 2013 ChryCo minivans... they already make the 8sp longitudinal unit for the Charger/Challenger/300. But they have also supplied units for Volvo, Volkswagen/Audi, BMW, Mini, Porsche, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Saab, among others.

Everything else, automotive wise, is in-house. GM (Hydramatic) not only of course makes them for most of their own products, but many Isuzus, BMWs, Volvos have also used them. Ford makes many of their own, some of which have unfortunately found their way into some Mazda products (the last of the 4cyl 626... an otherwise decent car... got cursed with the craptastic Ford CD4E lump).

And Chrysler of course makes much of their own, which is probably why they are slowly but surely handing that bag of fail off to Aisin and ZF. Talk about a track record of utter destruction

Mitsubishi, Mercedes Benz, and Volkswagen also make much of their own units.

 

[RNDDUDE]

oilhammer, could you be a bit more specific....?

 

[Chris B]

ZF will be supplying the new 9sp transverse application for the 2013 ChryCo minivans...

Jeezus, 9 speeds....when is enough enough? It's getting to be like bicycles. I remember when a 10 speed was a big deal. Then it was 12, 14, 16...I think they are up to 10 speeds on just the rear cassette now!

chris

 

[RabbitGTI]

Aisin traditonally builds the best autoboxes, hands down easy winner. However, lately even they have had some issues on the FWD applications with valve bodies spazzing out.

Aisins are used in all Toyota/Lexus/Scion/Hino/Daihatsu models, some Mitsubishi, Jeep, Volvo and Kia longitudinal applications, as well as most FWD Volvo applications. They also can be found in all T'reg/Q7/Cayenne automatics, all the 5 cyl Golf/Jetta/Passats as well as some 2.0L 4 cyl NBs, the new Fiat 500, many Suzuki products, and the new Ram Cab Chassis with the 6.7L Cummins engine. Both GM and Ford also use an Aisin 6sp autobox in some transverse applications like the Taurus, Five Hundred, Equinox, etc.

Jatco units are in all Nissans, most Subarus, and some Volkswagens, Ford/Mazda/Jaguars.

ZF will be supplying the new 9sp transverse application for the 2013 ChryCo minivans... they already make the 8sp longitudinal unit for the Charger/Challenger/300. But they have also supplied units for Volvo, Volkswagen/Audi, BMW, Mini, Porsche, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Saab, among others.

Everything else, automotive wise, is in-house. GM (Hydramatic) not only of course makes them for most of their own products, but many Isuzus, BMWs, Volvos have also used them. Ford makes many of their own, some of which have unfortunately found their way into some Mazda products (the last of the 4cyl 626... an otherwise decent car... got cursed with the craptastic Ford CD4E lump).

And Chrysler of course makes much of their own, which is probably why they are slowly but surely handing that bag of fail off to Aisin and ZF. Talk about a track record of utter destruction

Mitsubishi, Mercedes Benz, and Volkswagen also make much of their own units.

Thanks! I found a 2008 certified Beetle for a decent price. It must have a six-speed Aisin which is a good box? Car has 66k miles on it.

 

[oilhammer]

Thanks! I found a 2008 certified Beetle for a decent price. It must have a six-speed Aisin which is a good box? Car has 66k miles on it.

That is the one that may need a $900 valve body every so often. Have the dealer parts department look up the valve body by VIN and see if that part number is a hot mover. Chances are it is (they may even stock one). Easy job, just messy.

 

[Power_Not_Speed]

I also wouldn't take much stock in how great the media said the Prius is. I have seen plenty with problems. However, overall they are reliable.

Yes, I've noticed this in several other cars as well.

 

[oilhammer]

The Prius does have a neat CVT though. I still could not drive one.

 

[bhtooefr]

Jeezus, 9 speeds....when is enough enough? It's getting to be like bicycles. I remember when a 10 speed was a big deal. Then it was 12, 14, 16...I think they are up to 10 speeds on just the rear cassette now!
chris

11-speed exists now, 12-speed is coming soon.

And then you've got stuff like SRAM Dual Drive and the Sturmey-Archer CS-RK3, for when you need 27 speeds on your rear wheel (3-speed internal hub with a 9-speed cassette attached to it). Waiting for some mad scientist to figure out how to attach an 11-speed cassette to a Rohloff for 154 speeds, unfortunately Sheldon Brown passed away over 4 years ago or I'd expect him to have tried it already.

But, just like on bicycles, they're finding that a crapload of gears (be they planetary (like car automatic transmissions or bicycle internal hub gears) or derailleur) are still more efficient than a CVT.

 

[rabid_chihuahua]

Aisin traditonally builds the best autoboxes, hands down easy winner. However, lately even they have had some issues on the FWD applications with valve bodies spazzing out.

...

Good post, very informative and you covered almost everyone, but no mention of Honda's transmissions?

I'll agree that Aisin Seiki is the benchmark for most, but to refer to them as an "independent" supplier isn't telling the whole truth. Toyota still owns 30% of Aisin Seiki and accounts for about 65% of their sales. I think it is more fitting to call them Toyota powertrain.

Hyundai/Kia is going to be the big one to watch for the near future. Having just finshed their new, in-house developed 8-speed transmission, news has it that they are now designing a 10 speed. I haven't heard if they are using Shimano or SRAM components.

 

[oilhammer]

Yep, you are correct about Toyota's share of Aisin. They also have a share in Panasonic. I still would not call them Toyota transmissions though, just like I would not call a Panasonic radio a Toyota.

Totally forgot Honda, sorry. They are all in-house as well, and have some real stinkers . Some are perfectly fine, though.

HMC has been making great strides, no doubt. They still have relied mostly on Mitsubishi-knock-off designs for autoboxes, save for the Genesis and Equuis which use ZF.

 

[supton]

Have to wonder if the 5+ speed car transmissions have the same issues that bicycle 9+ cassettes have: in order to make it all fit, parts get tiny--and wear more quickly. And of course cost more to replace. Real nice items, until the repair bill comes along.

[I still want a bike with an 11 speed cassette. Just so I can say that my bike goes to 11! Hopefully no one will ask if I go to 11...]

 

[oilhammer]

Have to wonder if the 5+ speed car transmissions have the same issues that bicycle 9+ cassettes have: in order to make it all fit, parts get tiny--and wear more quickly. And of course cost more to replace. Real nice items, until the repair bill comes along.

[I still want a bike with an 11 speed cassette. Just so I can say that my bike goes to 11! Hopefully no one will ask if I go to 11...]

There is some truth to that: ChryCo's Failmatic 6sp autobox in the current minivans. In order to get 2 more gears than their already craporific 4sp, they added a second planetary gearset. Which means they 'splode quite easily. Of course, that is provided that the Chinese carrier bearings they put in them last long enough. Our poor friends at the VW dealers are finding out the hard way just how bad that 6sp is. Hopefully the 9sp ZF will be better.

 

[rabid_chihuahua]

Yep, you are correct about Toyota's share of Aisin. They also have a share in Panasonic. I still would not call them Toyota transmissions though, just like I would not call a Panasonic radio a Toyota.

I see it quite a bit differently. Aisin develops most of their transmission technology solely (exclusively) for Toyota and with thier engineering cooperation. Then they will later adapt a product to sell to other OEMs after Toyota has it on the market first. They simply don't work on many new transmission layouts for "outsiders".

If Panasonic worked only with Toyota for every single new product they developed, then I would also consider Panasonic simply Toyota electronics division, but instead they have many different divisions that sell goods directly to the consumers with a seperate automotive group that is also likely heavily dependent on Toyota's feedback, wishes, and desires. Aisin does not share this similarity with Panasonic.

 

[oilhammer]

. They simply don't work on many new transmission layouts for "outsiders".

.

They most certainly DO (GM and Ford, for instance) and typically Tier 1 suppliers do not cross-pollinate R&D between brands. Which is why VAG decided to use the short-lived PD system instead of CR, despite both being Bosch... Bosch developed the CR system with MB, it would have been a breech of contract.

You are in error if you think all Aisin autoboxes are merely an adaptation from a Toyota employed unit. And you do realize Aisin makes a LOT more than transmissions, right? And they supply that stuff to many, many carmakers. Denso is the sole supplier of EFI and DFI on Toyota vehicles, does that mean this Chevrolet Cobalt next to me here has a Toyota oxygen sensor in it because it is from Denso?

 

[DPM]

^ almost. Dad's Yaris d4-d has a Bosch CR package...

 

[bhtooefr]

And my understanding was that VAG was using CR anyway as early as 2000, on the 3.3 V8 TDI.

 

[RabbitGTI]

So the tiptronic in a 2003 GTI is a VAG product? What goes wrong with them?

 

[oilhammer]

So the tiptronic in a 2003 GTI is a VAG product? What goes wrong with them?

"Tiptronic" is just a function, and does not mean the trans type.

The autobox in a 2003 GTI with a 1.8t engine is a 5sp Jatco unit.

 

[RabbitGTI]

"Tiptronic" is just a function, and does not mean the trans type.

The autobox in a 2003 GTI with a 1.8t engine is a 5sp Jatco unit.

Thanks. Found one of those with 81k miles for $7200. Have not looked at it yet.

 

[GoFaster]

Have to wonder if the 5+ speed car transmissions have the same issues that bicycle 9+ cassettes have: in order to make it all fit, parts get tiny--and wear more quickly. And of course cost more to replace. Real nice items, until the repair bill comes along.

[I still want a bike with an 11 speed cassette. Just so I can say that my bike goes to 11! Hopefully no one will ask if I go to 11...]

While there's little question that the general trend to having more ratios in the transmission implies more parts inside, it's not quite a direct relationship.

Auto trannies such as what Honda uses are laid out like a manual transmission. Every gear has its own clutch. If you want to add another gear, it's one more clutch plus a set of gears.

The planetary arrangement that everyone else uses requires a combination of clutches to engage to select any given ratio. The implication of this, is that the possibilities tend to multiply. Adding another planetary gear-set and another clutch adds several more combinations of ways that they can be engaged.

A traditional 3-speed automatic has two planetary gear-sets and four shift elements (clutches or brakes). Most 6-speed automatics have three gear-sets and five shift elements. A ZF 8-speed automatic has four planetary gear-sets but still uses only five shift elements. (If Honda were to attempt to do this using their layout, they would need 9 sets of gears and 9 clutches! remember that you have reverse also ...)

The upcoming ZF 9-speed has four gear-sets but they are nested partially inside each other so that the transmission is kept short - this one is designed for transverse engines, the 8-speed is for longitudinal only.

I have no idea how the transmission manufacturers figure out how to arrange all these bits and pieces so that it all fits together and works, but somehow they do (most of the time).

 

[oilhammer]

The cutaways that ZF had at their display at NAIAS were incredible. Especially the giant 8sp longitudinal AWD units (like a big Audi or Phaeton would use). Lots and lots of pieces to these. Clutchpack after clutchpack after clutchpack, even the TC had dual clutchpacks, a two-stage design that ZF has supposedly patented, that allows a quick lockup of the first stage from a standing start as to make the second stage work the turbine more efficiently. Almost like a stepped two speed automatic like GM had way back when, all contained in the TC unit.

Don't know who or if anyone will be using this, but it was an interesting talk from the ZF rep. The other neat thing that they had was the standalone rear axle/motor/generator setup that looks to be easily adapted to almost any FWD platform that uses a twist-beam rear axle. The part they had displayed had MB part numbers on the upper shock mounts, so maybe it was already slated to be used in some FWD A-class or B-class?

 

[bhtooefr]

Interestingly, such a unit (although I thought it wasn't ZF's) was being used in Peugeots now.

 

[compu_85]

The 6 speed in VeeDubTDI's 6.0 Ford is a 3 speed with an overdrive on the end. As I recall 2nd + overdrive ends up being about the same ratio as 3rd. The computer picks from 5 different ratios as you drive... it works rather well. The controls work great too, it's always in the right gear (helps to have tons of torque down low though).

OTOH Mom's new Town & Country is annoying to drive. It gets into top gear as soon as possible. 65 is about 1300 RPM. Any throttle input causes it to drop two gears I like the concept of tons of ratios, and if you are going from 0 - top speed it is very fast and smooth. But I hate waiting around for the transmission to figure out which gear it needs to be in when I want to change lanes on the highway. Plus I'd think all those constant changes would wear things out.

-J