Best Audio Build yet!!

[I800C0LLECT]

If you're a fan of audio...you can appreciate the following...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rc-audio-mosconi-illusion-audio-200-pics.html

This isn't about hair tricks or flexing panels. I'm not a fan of the mid and tweeter advertising to everybody walking by but I do understand the purpose of their placement.

I'm sure it sounds incredible! Must be nice!! Definitely sets the standard high. Really lucky to have access to such a build log.

 

[JaredC01]

That wiring... *drool* The shop that did it did a phenomenal job.

It's also a TDI!

 

[bennybmn]

No more dead pedal!! Other than that, it's real nice. Especially impressed with the craftsmanship. And jealous of "Joey's" router lift

 

[Softrockrenegade]

Very clean install! The only thing I don't like is the way the wires are twisted together. Sure it looks great but imagine trying to troubleshoot a problem in there...

 

[JaredC01]

Very clean install! The only thing I don't like is the way the wires are twisted together. Sure it looks great but imagine trying to troubleshoot a problem in there...

So long as they're color-coded together, no big deal at all. Twisted pairs are also used for audio benefit as well... Helps cancel out interference.

 

[elconquistador]

Damn i wish I had talent!

 

[JaredC01]

Damn i wish I had talent!

I wish I had the fiberglass and fab talent... I'm already pretty decent on the wiring front, though I do like to take my time and do it right, which doesn't always agree with my car being my DD.

 

[elconquistador]

I hear that man

 

[I800C0LLECT]

They're my favorite installers I was pretty excited to see a TDI build by them. What really excites me is that I plan on doing a 2-way with the mids mounted in the same location as the morel mid-bass. I had also planned on introducing a mid-range in approximately the same location if I was having issues with my 2-way.

So this build is a nice skeleton to what I had planned for when I get home from deployment. However, I do plan on installing two 6.5 vented subs up front with a neatO idea for the vent that should help get rid of any phase issues.

Can't wait to post up a product at some point

 

[WutGas?]

Damn, that's nice. How much would an install like that cost an average joe?

 

[JaredC01]

The front stage in speakers alone is just under $2k, the subwoofer I can't even find a price for (seems Illusion Audio is based in California, and recently came back from the dead), $440 for the Arc Audio ALD's (all four), $800 for the DSP (best I can find), the Arc Audio SE 2300 (sub amp) is $1200, the 2x Arc Audio 4200SE's (non-modded) run $1350 a piece (so probably around $1500 or more modded a piece)... Hardware alone, not including the subwoofer since I can't find a price for it, you're looking at right around $7500.

Now, all of the custom wiring, fabrication, calibration, etc. done at the shop... You're probably looking at another $5000 in dismantling the car, custom fabrication (and material cost that comes along with it), wiring, installation, testing and tweaking the sound profile, etc.

Call it a rough estimate of $13,000~$14,000.

 

[Softrockrenegade]

So long as they're color-coded together, no big deal at all. Twisted pairs are also used for audio benefit as well... Helps cancel out interference.

Good catch I didn't realize that they were twisted pairs.

 

[kickice24]

Amazing install.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

They're not actually twisted pair...Joey uses a drill to wind up the wires. He's just a neat freak.

Although theoretically twisted pair might help I'm pretty sure there isn't a measurable difference in sound. Diymobileaudio is all about getting rid of snake oil products. I doubt much money was spent on the wire for this audio build. Gauge of wire can make a difference though...but not usually noticeable.

 

[JaredC01]

So he doesn't twist matching pairs (per channel) of wires together? Looks like he does to me...

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Oh yes...I meant...in the other builds they show they don't purchase the wires that way. My bad

He just uses a drill to spiral them together. He's mentioned before it's bigger purpose is to just tidy things up. He doesn't shoot for 90 degree bends. Ground noise, cross talk and magnetic interference isn't an issue in vehicles as most might think. If there's noise or feedback in the speakers it usually means something isn't right...

I don't think I've ever found anybody(that had problems) who was able to pin it on the cables picking up anything from anywhere.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

It's what he did here on the wiring harness too...the goal isn't "twisted pair"

and after Joey organized it to our standards

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Ah...just went through the build. Another reason I'm certain that the cables were twisted for looks is that the arc ALD uses balanced RCA's. There's no reason to use "twisted pair" to cancel out EMI since they're utilizing BLT's.

 

[JaredC01]

He still did twisted pairs in the harness for speaker wiring on that harness, but I'm sure he does like the look for the rest.

Edit:

Ah...just went through the build. Another reason I'm certain that the cables were twisted for looks is that the arc ALD uses balanced RCA's. There's no reason to use "twisted pair" to cancel out EMI since they're utilizing BLT's.

The RCA's aren't balanced, they're the input from the DSP... The balanced output is sent through Cat 5 cable (using 4 sets of twisted pairs I'll add) via RJ45 (ethernet) jack.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

He still did twisted pairs in the harness for speaker wiring on that harness, but I'm sure he does like the look for the rest.

hrmmm. Is this the definition you're attempting to use...?

Twisted pair cabling is a type of wiring in which two conductors of a single circuit are twisted together for the purposes of canceling out electromagnetic interference (EMI) from external sources; for instance, electromagnetic radiation from unshielded twisted pair (UTP) cables, and crosstalk between neighboring pairs. It was invented by Alexander Graham Bell.



In the rear of the vehicle where they made RCA's they used Cat5 cable which may have been manufactured with twisted pair. So in this instance I am incorrect and they might be utilizing "twisted pair". I am against that use of term though since twisted pair maintains a purpose of reducing and eliminating EMI. In this instance, the wires are twisted for the sake of organization.

I can assure you this is purely for cosmetics and identification of channel operation. The use of "twisted pair" in audio is of no benefit in this application. Twisted pair are useful in very long runs which is why they're typical for communication lines.

The BLT accomplishes the task of getting rid of cross talk in this vehicle...not the Cat5 cable. I don't see any indication of "twisted pair" in the wiring harness either since it requires the use of a balanced signal. So in that instance, they're just twisted wire I suppose?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just don't want "audiophile" foolery entering into the thread. There's so many people who think wire makes a big deal and they'll spend thousands on it.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Edit:


The RCA's aren't balanced, they're the input from the DSP... The balanced output is sent through Cat 5 cable (using 4 sets of twisted pairs I'll add) via RJ45 (ethernet) jack.

I am assuming the Mosconi DSP has balanced RCA's and that the line driver accepts balanced RCA's. Whether it really happens or not is moot in my opinion.

Majority of higher end equipment in car audio accepts balanced RCA's. But again, it's not really that big of a deal. Cross talk and EMI aren't problems in car audio.


EDIT: I'm actually unsure of EMI problems in relationship to hybrid's and electrics though? I suppose you could just steer clear of their high voltage

 

[JaredC01]

That would be what a twisted pair is, yes... A pair of wires twisted together. It does indeed help cancel any external interference, and it does indeed help with wire organization. A twisted pair is exactly what it sounds like.

They didn't use Cat5 cable for the RCA plugs, they used Cat5 cable for the BALANCED output from the BLT. Moscani DSP -> Unbalanced RCA output (8 channels) -> Arc Audio ALD(s) -> Balanced output via RJ45 (ethernet) jack -> Cat 5 (network) cable (which is composed of 4 sets of twisted pairs of wires) -> Amps.

Why are you arguing a point I'm not trying to make?

 

[JaredC01]

I am assuming the Mosconi DSP has balanced RCA's and that the line driver accepts balanced RCA's. Whether it really happens or not is moot in my opinion.

Majority of higher end equipment in car audio accepts balanced RCA's. But again, it's not really that big of a deal. Cross talk and EMI aren't problems in car audio.


EDIT: I'm actually unsure of EMI problems in relationship to hybrid's and electrics though? I suppose you could just steer clear of their high voltage

The Mosconi DPS has a 1kOhm resistance to ground (listed per their specs), but they are not balanced best I've been able to find.

Edit: The Mosconi has an isolation DC-DC flyback transformer, so if the signal source INTO the DSP was balanced, the output should be in theory as well, but it does not balance an unbalanced input.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

I was looking up the mosconi DSP to see if it was balanced...too many pages to browse but here's what I was referencing...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1636466-post514.html

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2
I think Neil's talking about diff. balanced type inputs that you see in amps like JL which are compatible with both unbal and bal and offer better noise immunity even if the source is single ended.

I'm arguing against "twisted pair" because I don't want other users to assume that "twisted pair" is a must have or good idea for car audio. Until the Cat5 cable was easily identifiable I thought you were trying to construe that all those wires were twisted for a specific benefit, which in reference to "twisted pair" would be noise cancellation.

That is NOT the truth at all. Because "twisted pair" requires a balanced signal to operate as such. The RCA's are questionable because I don't know nor do I care to find out if they are balanced. If balanced, twisted pair...if not balanced...it's not twisted pair.

Majority of what's in use in car audio is unbalanced. Therefore, "twisted pair" isn't applicable since it doesn't operate as such w/o a balanced signal.

But I think we've made it clear to other readers so I'm gonna let it go now!! Sorry if any of this seems to be an attack or otherwise rude.

 

[JaredC01]

The quote doesn't mention anything about the inputs or outputs on the Moscani being balanced. If you follow the post to the post he quoted...

From what I understand, the 6to8 can accept balanced inputs (it has a switch on the input section to select between balanced or not), BUT, it doesn't matter if it accepts balanced if the source doesn't ouput balanced (which most H/U's don't). So, you can get the noise rejection benefits of a balanced input with the 6to8, but you have to have balanced outputs first.

That is exactly what I said above.

A twisted pair doesn't "require a balanced signal" to be considered a twisted pair... If you take two wires, one with an audio signal, and the other with an audio signal inverted 180 degrees from the first, then you twisted them into a pair, you would have an unshielded, 'balanced' audio twisted pair. That said, if you were to remove the audio signal from the twisted pair completely, you would still have a twisted pair. The information running through the twisted pair makes no difference; so long as two wires are twisted together, they are a twisted pair.

Also, you can have a 'balanced' audio signal without twisting the wires into a twisted pair... So long as the two audio lines are 180 degrees out-of-phase with one another, and neither is a direct connect to chassis ground, the signal is balanced. Twisting a pair of 180 degree out-of-phase wires together does a fantastic job of canceling out cross-talk or EMI from outside sources though.

 

[simplicityinsound]

hey guys. let me put this to rest.

the way we did the cables see, its called quadrahelixial duplex category seventeen melodic twisting. what it does is, it uh...rejects noise, makes it balanced, increase voltage from 4 to 50 volts, increase damping factor from 100 to 10000, increase efficiency of amplifier to 145 percent, and a slew of other advantages.

it was such a big job that 5k in labor went into the rca cables alone!







































hahaha

basically, most installers, when running primary wire pairs, like to twist them, it make them neater and easier to manage.

I previous never did this on rcas because Joey is better at soldering RCAs than I am. when he joined the team, we started doing it. it is still very much time cosuming compared to running normal RCAs, but on an install like this, where we needed the rcas to be exactly the right length, it was the best way to do it.

I would call them twisted pair but not in the strictest technical sense. does it reject noise more than if we just run two sets of primary wire together? maybe? but i highly doubt it is going to make a difference in a car like this. so i would say realistically speaking, what we did is for cosmetic and neatness.

the signal is unbalanced from headunit to the mosconi, the mosconi can take balanced input but will not output balanced. those rcas are there fore, unbalanced. the ALD is waht outputs a high voltage balanced output to the amps, which are of course designed to accept it. and those four little pieces are key to getting a LOT of dynamics while still keep the SN ratio really really low. all the gains are bottomed ont he amp and its dead quite, yet we still can really crank it

hope that helps!

b

 

[DieselMann99]

Call it a rough estimate of $13,000~$14,000.

Pretty phenomenal, highly professional job, and I'm sure it sounds out of this world . . . . but, I would need to have my head examined to spend $14k on an audio system for a $24k car, or even for a $60k car.

 

[simplicityinsound]

Pretty phenomenal, highly professional job, and I'm sure it sounds out of this world . . . . but, I would need to have my head examined to spend $14k on an audio system for a $24k car, or even for a $60k car.

I think its relative, as some would say the same about paying 40 percent more than a gas model for a diesel model of the same car or paying 30k more for stripped out "lightweight" version of the same basic car hehe

i guess one way to look at it is what is good sound worth to someone if they spend a LOT of time driving on a weekly basis, like 20-30 hours a week.

but i will say this though, a 10k stereo system will almost always sound bretter in a 20k car versus a 60k car. interior is usually way more wide open, and you can usually swap in an aftermarket HU.

but no, we did not charge 14 or 15k for the build. but the customer also already had quite a bit of the gear to start with, two of the three amps and the processor.

 

[simplicityinsound]

oh and thanks to OP for this link, but really, i dont think it deserves to be called "best", its just Joey and I trying our best, but its by no means the best install log or even remotely close. with so many talented people out there, we want to make sure people dont get the wrong idea hehe

 

[I800C0LLECT]

oh and thanks to OP for this link, but really, i dont think it deserves to be called "best", its just Joey and I trying our best, but its by no means the best install log or even remotely close. with so many talented people out there, we want to make sure people dont get the wrong idea hehe

Best attitude ever too!! I had to make sure that people know about your quality work

This certainly is the best MKVI build I've seen thus far. There's always room for improvement and recognizing that is what puts you at the top of any list I'd put together. You're good people and a stand up act. I know you've done a lot of VW's in the past and I can't wait to see what else you two do in the future.

Thanks for dropping by the thread and providing some insight!!