Bench setup to code keys without being in car

[Limitedblack]

Has anyone managed to code new keys with just a cluster & ECU on a bench setup?

I have VCDS working fine in the car, but on the bench it throws up an error when running “test” in key programming.

car is 2001 golf V5 AGZ engine with Bosch 3.8.3 motronics ECU. On the bench I have a setup with original key reader, and can run a cluster so immobiliser is not activated (runs with a correct key).

so far I have powered up the same model ECU on the bench, and it is readable through the k line. I have also added the canbus lines that also look to run (passes the VCDS coms test, and fails if I swap the high/low lines). Engine light also operates on cluster when canbus connected. So pretty sure all that works.

ECU connections are
power pins 1&3
Ground pin 2
K line pin 19
Canbus pin 41/29. Connects to cluster pins 19/20 green T.

have tried w-line on various pins of ECU (comes from cluster pin 5 (green). Pin 18 & 43 on ECU both have the same effect of killing the communications in VCDS (controller not found).

running out of ideas.

 

[Nuje]

No answers, but replied so I get subscribed to this thread; I'm curious.

 

[Limitedblack]

So some updates. Answer to key Reading coil, this is already installed in setup and tested ok (have a programmed key to cluster, and can power up on bench with no immobiliser light).

Have changed k line input to ECU (pin 19), from cluster blue pin 25, to cluster green pin 5, as this is the W line. From what I understand it runs as a K line in normal diagnostics, but disconnects during immobiliser interrogation between cluster and ECU on startup. I can not see any test for this line, other than VCDS can read the ECU using

VCDS tests show communication between cluster and engine as “1”, so is communicating. (Measuring block 125). This tests canbus.

now stumped, all works but not key adaptation test success (still error).

I have tried several clusters. Not sure what to do next.

 

[Limitedblack]

want to "see" the key, through the immo ring and cecm?

CECM ?

 

[Limitedblack]

module

CCM module. Do you think this affects the programming of a new transponder key? I will try anything, but can’t see why VCDS needs this connection to adapt a new key unless something should show as locked or unlocked

 

[gmenounos]

Has anyone managed to code new keys with just a cluster & ECU on a bench setup?

I have VCDS working fine in the car, but on the bench it throws up an error when running “test” in key programming.

car is 2001 golf V5 AGZ engine with Bosch 3.8.3 motronics ECU. On the bench I have a setup with original key reader, and can run a cluster so immobiliser is not activated (runs with a correct key).

so far I have powered up the same model ECU on the bench, and it is readable through the k line. I have also added the canbus lines that also look to run (passes the VCDS coms test, and fails if I swap the high/low lines). Engine light also operates on cluster when canbus connected. So pretty sure all that works.

ECU connections are
power pins 1&3
Ground pin 2
K line pin 19
Canbus pin 41/29. Connects to cluster pins 19/20 green T.

have tried w-line on various pins of ECU (comes from cluster pin 5 (green). Pin 18 & 43 on ECU both have the same effect of killing the communications in VCDS (controller not found).

running out of ideas.

I have programmed a key (actually just an Immobilizer capsule, but same thing) on the bench. You need the powertrain CAN bus between the ECU and the cluster, which I think you have done correctly (except that I don't have a wiring diagram for the AGZ so I can't verify that the pin numbers are correct).

You need the immobilizer coil wired up to the correct pins on the cluster.

You need the K-line to go from the OBD connector the the correct pin on the cluster.

You need the W-line to go from the correct pin on the cluster to the correct pin on the ECU. The cluster serves as a bridge for the K-line between the OBD connector and the ECU. Not sure why. Maybe to protect the ECU from anything bad being connected to the OBD connector. Maybe something else. I know that on the bench, you can omit the cluster and just connect the K-line on the OBD connector to the W-line on the ECU and you'll be able to scan the ECU with VCDS or any other tool, so the K-line and the W-line use the same protocol, but the cluster is used to connect the two.

If you're matching more than one key then you need an additional power connection to the cluster with an on/off switch so that you can "turn the ignition off and then on" to move to the next key: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Immobilizer_III_Key_Matching_(Cluster)
The cluster has an always-on power pin and an ignition-key-on power pin.

 

[Limitedblack]

two.

I have programmed a key (actually just an Immobilizer capsule, but same thing) on the bench. You need the powertrain CAN bus between the ECU and the cluster, which I think you have done correctly (except that I don't have a wiring diagram for the AGZ so I can't verify that the pin numbers are correct).

You need the immobilizer coil wired up to the correct pins on the cluster.

You need the K-line to go from the OBD connector the the correct pin on the cluster.

You need the W-line to go from the correct pin on the cluster to the correct pin on the ECU. The cluster serves as a bridge for the K-line between the OBD connector and the ECU. Not sure why. Maybe to protect the ECU from anything bad being connected to the OBD connector. Maybe something else. I know that on the bench, you can omit the cluster and just connect the K-line on the OBD connector to the W-line on the ECU and you'll be able to scan the ECU with VCDS or any other tool, so the K-line and the W-line use the same protocol, but the cluster is used to connect the two.

If you're matching more than one key then you need an additional power connection to the cluster with an on/off switch so that you can "turn the ignition off and then on" to move to the next key: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Immobilizer_III_Key_Matching_(Cluster)
The cluster has an always-on power pin and an ignition-key-on power pin.

Interesting. I have got both the Pinout correct for car/cluster/ecu of my car, and tested with VCDS getting the correct blocks back, proving the canbus and w line is working. Immobiliser is not locked out, transponder is recognised, but still the key adaptation fails. I’m wondering if it is a CCM issue due to cluster being immo3 and ECU immo2. Only thing left that does not work correctly is the canbus test from VCDS to the OBD/Cluster. I wired straight to the OBD port with no bridge resistor, Reading off the cluster is has no resistance across can high and can low so I put a 60 ohm resistor on but still no response (can no ready error). Will try a 120 ohm instead, incase the rosstech connector has 120 ohm too.

did you put any resistance in your bench loom can you remember?

my test box has ignition on too, so ECU and cluster can power up correctly.

I have got enough parts to make a jumper loom on the car itself, like suggested I can start removing items on the actual car until it has the same fault.

 

[gmenounos]

I didn't add any resistors.

Any chance that the key you're trying to adapt was already adapted to a different vehicle? Immo3 keys can only be adapted to 1 vehicle and can't be transferred to a different one.

Can you re-adapt any of your existing keys? Key adaptation works by forgetting all the existing keys and adding them all (including any new keys) back. If you can re-adapt existing keys but not add a new one, that would make me think that the new key was already adapted to another car (or maybe had a defective or missing immobilizer pill).

 

[Limitedblack]

So, good news. Got the bench setup working. It was a power issue. Connections were correct, but power up incorrect. Just needed permanent power on for a few seconds before ignition power. I had these 2 pins reversed.

As for key programming, interestingly I successfully programmed 2 new keys (have a bag of transponders). But moving the cluster to the car the immobiliser was activated, so had to pair keys in car again (same new keys paired on bench).

Reading threads I understood that Immo 2 cars only have to have keys cloned to cluster, as the immobiliser is not paired to the ECU, but in practice this for whatever reason does not work (using an Immo 3 cluster).

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Immo3 keys can only be adapted to 1 vehicle and can't be transferred to a different one.

I thought the "pill" was a completely passive device? Do you know the mechanism by which "introducing" it to a vehicle renders it unable to be used on another vehicle? I wouldn't have expected it to have "memory" for that sort of thing, and blowing something like a fusible link would (I'd think) take more power than you could get into it via the RF interlink between it and the car.

 

[gmenounos]

I thought the "pill" was a completely passive device? Do you know the mechanism by which "introducing" it to a vehicle renders it unable to be used on another vehicle? I wouldn't have expected it to have "memory" for that sort of thing, and blowing something like a fusible link would (I'd think) take more power than you could get into it via the RF interlink between it and the car.

The Immo3 are not passive and can't easily be re-used:
https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/key-immo-rfid-question.340192/

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Interesting read. Thanks.