Bell housing bolt pattern for 1.6tdi and clearance for oil pan

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

Hello vw folks. I am interested in trying to find a suitable diesel swap for the AL25 Toyota Tercel wagons. Below is a pic of the odd bell housing and the very limited clearance on the bottom as the engine sits on top of the front differential. Here is a link that shows the 3a oil pan or one very similar.

oil pan

The flywheels are quite similar in dimension (the Toyota is slightly smaller), this pic is of a 4age flywheel for a gas engine swap that has been modified and the stock starter ring added. You can see the very tight clearance needed on the bottom. Any help with real numbers (dimensions) for the 1.6 tdi or any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you for your help.

Chris

 

[Straypoet]

You aren't kidding. Did you consider a dry sump? Might be a solution.
I do have an oil pan from a BHW that is steeply slanted, that might give you enough clearance if you clocked the engine at a 30 degree angle.
I don't know if the BHW pan would fit the 1.6 (I assume not) Have you measured how far from the center of the crank before it interferes?

 

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

You aren't kidding. Do you have a photo of the rear of the original engine? Did you consider a dry sump? that is about the only thing I can think that would give you enough clearance.
I do have an oil pan from a BHW that is steeply slanted, that might give you enough clearance if you clocked the engine at a 30 degree angle.
I don't know if the BHW pan would fit the 1.6 (I assume not) Do you have the ability to weld aluminum?

Thanks Straypoet,

I've not welded aluminum, but can surely work something out OR come up with a steel pan that could be modified (I can ugly weld steel). As you can see in the linked oil pan advertisement, once passed the front of the diff, there is room for a sump that seems like it would work well with the front, chain driven oil pumps. The Toyota oil pumps are front mount, crankshaft driven with a pick-up into the sump. I would love to find a detailed drawing showing the rear of the 1.6tdi engine with the flywheel, oil pan and crankshaft clearance requirements. I assume the crankshaft and/or rod connections don't travel below the lower limits of the stock flywheel? I will find a pic of the rear of the 3a for you.

Thanks again,

Chris

 

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

 

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

This is the engine bay of my car to give a "bigger" picture. This perspective doesn't help much, but provides a general layout.

 

[Straypoet]

I did a little bit of light research, and most tdi pans should interchange. According to this anyway:
https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/parts-that-interchange-on-vw-engines.264149/
A BHW pan:

 

[Straypoet]

Looking at that picture of the 3a, it looks like there would be enough room for the crank bolts, and a slim pan on a TDI. I am not super familiar with the 1.6, but the 1.9 ALH has a front oil pump, and sump.

I can give you the dimensions of my BHW 2.0 tdi, but unfortunately i can't help you with any other dimensions, because the only 2 TDIs I have are both BHWs.

where are you located? I am in Florida.

 

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

Thanks for the offer, the 2.0 info wouldn't likely help much. I do appreciate the help, I am in Missouri and have a local "contact" that likely has some of the tdi engines around that I could take a look at. Thank you for the link as well, part of the fun is learning along the way.

 

[oilhammer]

You are going to have a difficult time with this. I am familiar with the longitudinal engine first and second gen Tercels, even the little 4x4 wagons they sold here (which I am betting that is what you are after).

VAG has a fixed 88mm bore spacing on all their inline engines within this family. All of them. Which means, a 1.5L is as "big" as a 2.0L. There are no 1.6L TDIs sold here, just 1.9L and 2.0L, which span a couple generations and several DFI setups.... but they all have that 88mm bore spacing in common, and all have the same bell house bolt pattern. So that makes no difference.

That said, Toyota's A engine (which your Tercel employs) is fairly short, too. Not sure what the bore spacing is, but external dimensions are fairly close.

It is that goofy output snout that is unique to the longitudinal Tercels that is going to be an issue. And you cannot easily just swap in a VAG FWD/AWD longitudinal drivetrain, as they place the differential between the engine and transmission, not under the engine. So you would have to have the engine moved WAY forward, hanging half out the front of the car. VAG solved this issue on their smaller longitudinal versions, as well as longitudinal versions with inline 5 cyl engines, by relocating the radiator to the side of the engine compartment. Audi 4000/Dasher/Fox/5000/Quantum, etc. You can actually look through the grill of those cars and see the timing belt cover right behind.

In any event, you may be able to cut and weld and modify one of the aluminum oil pans. All of the second gen TDI engines (ALH, BEW, BHW, BRM, CBEA, CJAA, CKRA, etc.) use an aluminum oil pan. As do any of the I4 gas engines based on the same architecture (AEG, AZG, AVH, BEV, AWP, AWW, AUG, AWM, BPY, BPG etc.).

I have engines and oil pans laying about, I'm in Union (work in STL) if I can be of any assistance.

 

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

You are going to have a difficult time with this. I am familiar with the longitudinal engine first and second gen Tercels, even the little 4x4 wagons they sold here (which I am betting that is what you are after).

VAG has a fixed 88mm bore spacing on all their inline engines within this family. All of them. Which means, a 1.5L is as "big" as a 2.0L. There are no 1.6L TDIs sold here, just 1.9L and 2.0L, which span a couple generations and several DFI setups.... but they all have that 88mm bore spacing in common, and all have the same bell house bolt pattern. So that makes no difference.

That said, Toyota's A engine (which your Tercel employs) is fairly short, too. Not sure what the bore spacing is, but external dimensions are fairly close.

It is that goofy output snout that is unique to the longitudinal Tercels that is going to be an issue. And you cannot easily just swap in a VAG FWD/AWD longitudinal drivetrain, as they place the differential between the engine and transmission, not under the engine. So you would have to have the engine moved WAY forward, hanging half out the front of the car. VAG solved this issue on their smaller longitudinal versions, as well as longitudinal versions with inline 5 cyl engines, by relocating the radiator to the side of the engine compartment. Audi 4000/Dasher/Fox/5000/Quantum, etc. You can actually look through the grill of those cars and see the timing belt cover right behind.

In any event, you may be able to cut and weld and modify one of the aluminum oil pans. All of the second gen TDI engines (ALH, BEW, BHW, BRM, CBEA, CJAA, CKRA, etc.) use an aluminum oil pan. As do any of the I4 gas engines based on the same architecture (AEG, AZG, AVH, BEV, AWP, AWW, AUG, AWM, BPY, BPG etc.).

I have engines and oil pans laying about, I'm in Union (work in STL) if I can be of any assistance.

Thank you very much for the great info! You are spot on, I daily drive and enjoy my 85' Tercel wagon 4WD immensely (repowered with a 4a), but would like the low end torque and novelty of a diesel. A few of us Tercel folks like to play with light off-roading and even with the EL sixth gear available in 4WD, any real rough terrain is a challenge to drive, particularly uphill. An automatic would be better, but comes with it's own challenges. If I understand you correctly, while the 1.6 IDI was sold in NA, the 1.6 tdi was not? So as I move forward, I'm looking at the 1.9 ALH, AHU etc. or 2.0 engines (assuming VW). The transmissions seem pretty durable on these little Toyotas, but the general consensus seems to be no more than 100hp and less torque. I think I could be satisfied with the IDI TD, but what little I have seen, it appears the oil pump is back/bottom and would likely not have room on top of the diff. There are Toyota diesels that can be imported, but that's not my first choice (though it solves a lot of problems). Thank you for the help. My dad's family is from St. Louis and some is still in Kirkwood and I have a BIL/family in Fenton as well.

Chris

 

[oilhammer]

I have owned a couple Toyota diesels, an '82 pickup L engine (2.2L non-turbo) and an '84 Corolla 1C (1.8L non-turbo). They were not bad, but parts were virtually unobtainable for certain things, especially the Corolla. Not sure how easily the 1C would even fit, as it is not the same engine family as any Toyota gas engines of the era.

You really wouldn't want an IDI VAG diesel. Parts are getting scarce for those, too, and the early TDI engines (1.9L 1Z or AHU) are essentially the same basic "box" and make a lot more power even in stock form.

I've owned an '85 4WD Tercel wagon with a slushbox. It was glacially slow. Other than the random AAP failure in the carb, they were fairly reliable (cannot say the same for the '87-90 Tercel that replaced it.... those VV carbs were a driveability clusterfudge if there ever was one).

 

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5294832127223939&set=pcb.3962029033820977

Here is a link to my Tercel. And the hillbilly piping up front is for my snorkel (as needed)

Chris

 

[NWMO Tercel 4WD]

I have owned a couple Toyota diesels, an '82 pickup L engine (2.2L non-turbo) and an '84 Corolla 1C (1.8L non-turbo). They were not bad, but parts were virtually unobtainable for certain things, especially the Corolla. Not sure how easily the 1C would even fit, as it is not the same engine family as any Toyota gas engines of the era.

You really wouldn't want an IDI VAG diesel. Parts are getting scarce for those, too, and the early TDI engines (1.9L 1Z or AHU) are essentially the same basic "box" and make a lot more power even in stock form.

I've owned an '85 4WD Tercel wagon with a slushbox. It was glacially slow. Other than the random AAP failure in the carb, they were fairly reliable (cannot say the same for the '87-90 Tercel that replaced it.... those VV carbs were a driveability clusterfudge if there ever was one).

I thought the AL25 was the last carbureted yota and then the 4afe, 7afe family came along. I didn’t realize the Tercel didn’t change at the same time.

 

[oilhammer]

Tercel did not get EFI until the 1991 change in the body. And even then, it was not an A family engine, it was the 3E-E (which was just the fuel injected version of the 3E that the '87-90 Tercel had). These were not nearly as durable of engine as the 4A-F, 4A-FE, and 7A-FE family of A engines the Corollas here got. The VV carbed 3E engine never ran long enough typically to wear itself out, as most owners just ditched the cars after repeated attempts to make them run right. The 3E-E however, ran perfect 100% of the time, so it lasted long enough to show the weakness in the engine itself. Oil consumption and poor valve guide wear being the main problems. The car was simple and reliable. Just not long lasting. And what is a Tercel worth after 100k miles? Nobody was ever going to overhaul an engine just for oil use, so they either learned to use the dipstick diligently or the engine just blew up and the car got scrapped.

 

[RabbitGTI]

This thread brought back memories. Had a 1980 Corolla bottom feeder with 3TC. Good car until it dissolved. Though I'd get another Yoda. Bought a 1988 or so Tercel EZ. Ultimate POS. Rats nest of vacuum lines and always ran rough. Traded it for an 88 Golf and here we are many VWs later.

 

[oilhammer]

It is quite odd to me Toyota's clinging to outdated technology like a carburetor. Especially when they HAD some models with EFI already. The Supra always had it, the Cressida had it, and even the tiny Starlet had it... and it was placed on an updated version of an engine family that dated back to the late '60s. Other than that freak goofball '83 Rabbit LS that showed up in small numbers with that one barrel carb, Volkswagen happily tossed them away back in the middle '70s for us. I remember our family's 1975 Bus being immune to freakish cold starts thanks to its simple Bosch L-jet system. Granted, not many folks understood it, but if you did, you never had to worry about poor driveability. That thing still ran great right up until the mid '90s when rust finally made it impractical to use anymore.