BD in Treg

[czar]

I posted this in the alt fuel forum, but no responses. I've used BD for years, and I have a few local suppliers, one who sells B20 year round and another who sells B20 until winter when they switch to B5. I can also get B100 from my family as they produce it from WVO on a system my scientist-brother designed. So I am familiar with BD and have run it in '00, '03, '05.5, and '09 TDI's. I am wondering if there any special considerations I need to take into account for engine differences between my '09 JSW and my '09 Treg.

Thanks

 

[schubie]

What's the JSW TDI allowed to run? The Treg manual says only up to B5.

 

[czar]

It says 5 as well, but I ran a lot higher than that.

 

[schubie]

It says 5 as well, but I ran a lot higher than that.

I'll let you know how mine likes B2-5 after I start using it this weekend.

 

[czar]

Sounds good. I just filled with D2 but am going to do a B20 fill when I get to the 1/2 way mark. 23mpg and change on my first fill

 

[schubie]

Sounds good. I just filled with D2 but am going to do a B20 fill when I get to the 1/2 way mark. 23mpg and change on my first fill

Change of plans. I was too close to the reserve to do some offroading and make it to my BD station. So I refilled with petro ULSD first and then grabbed a container of B100. So B2 blending will have to wait for the next fill.

Per the below, I also hit the 23 mpg mark on the first tank. Personally, I'm happy with this. My daily driving is 40% secondary roads and 60% highway. Plugging in the EPA estimates should yield about 22 mpg average. Considering I sat in traffic for much of the 150 drive home from the dealer, this is just fine for pre-break-in mileage.

 

[Wobisobi]

I am wondering if there any special considerations I need to take into account for engine differences between my '09 JSW and my '09 Treg.

I think the main difference would be the emissions equipment. The 3.0 TDI uses AdBlu whereas the 2.0 TDI in the JSW doesn't have any of that equipment.

My '09 with the 3.0 TDI has been running B2 since new and now has 10k miles on it. MN blends in 2% biodiesel for all road diesel.

 

[schubie]

So B2 blending will have to wait for the next fill.

Finally came to the end of tank 2. Just under 24 mpg. Also marked the first use of BD. Manually blended in 2 quarts of B100 with ULSD for ~B2.

Kinda surprised how much the B100 gelled in the jug in 40sF overnight. Had to mix in some ULSD to rinse it all out. Next time will shake first before pouring. Storing overnight at room temp also an option. Otherwise, may have to dose with antigel.

 

[dcharnet]

I have a new 10 T'reg TDI and am new to diesels. It has 275 miles on it. The dealer filled the tank on pickup last weekend (Saturday). I topped it off last Sunday (6 -7 gallons?) with diesel fuel from a very busy I-80 station that was labelled "BD/ULSD." After driving 75-100 or so more miles, the "check emissions" light came on. Possible cause and effect? I will take it it the dealer Monday, but am interested in any thoughts any of you have.

 

[Yeti35]

You just killed it!! No, you may be able to use BD, but just not that much. The emissions warning is just that, you are just putting out higher emissions then what you should be. Is it running fine?

 

[dcharnet]

It is running fine. Are you saying it is cause and effect and that I should always avoid BD in this vehicle?

 

[dcharnet]

Sorry, Yeti, I didn't read your post carefully. How do I know before the fill that a specific BD will make the engine happy? And, do you feel that the light will go off when this "bad" diesel is used up? In your opinion do I need to even go to the dealer, which is an hour away?

 

[Yeti35]

It is running fine. Are you saying it is cause and effect and that I should always avoid BD in this vehicle?

I am not saying avoid it, but from what I have been reading you can only mix in a little with regular diesel. I am new to this as well and have not even received my TDI yet. Hopefully it will get here this week. It reads to me like you put it in as an additive kind of like how you used to do fuel injector cleaner to gas motors. I don't fully understand what it does or does not do for the vehical yet.

Just run it out as long as the car is running smoothly. I would not go to the dealer unless you are having an issue.

 

[dcharnet]

Thanks. I will probably take to the dealer just as a precaution, and will advise on what I learn.

 

[schubie]

Sorry, Yeti, I didn't read your post carefully. How do I know before the fill that a specific BD will make the engine happy? And, do you feel that the light will go off when this "bad" diesel is used up? In your opinion do I need to even go to the dealer, which is an hour away?

Do you know what blend of BD you used? According to the manual, the Treg is warranteed up to B5 (5%). Like Yeti, I don't have enough experience yet to know what would happen with a higher blend. (B20 is one of the most common.)

Many states are now requiring up to 5% BD be blended into retail ULSD. And in many (all?) of these cases, they're not mandated to specify the exact %. So if the pump didn't have numbers associated with the BD labeling, then it probably just served B2-5.

In any case, I'd go to another station that goes through a lot of fuel and top the tank back off with just petro diesel (if available). After it's warmed up and you drive it awhile at highway speeds, the light may go away on its own. If so, you can probably just chalk it up to bad fuel (or maybe B20+). And then make sure you fuel up in the future with something your Treg likes.

 

[Yeti35]

Ok, I had a discussion today with two friends of mine who both happen to be diesel mechanics. One works for a shop that rebuilds and hops up diesel PU's. I asked him about additives to diesel and he said yes to do it and gave me a name for a product. Which at this point I forget the name. He did however mention to stay away from BD and he does not recommend it at all since there are currently no standards for it. He says he has seen more issues using BD then without using it. He did say to use and additive though.

Ok so I end up running into another friend who I completely forgot is also a diesel mechanic, but on Semi's. He mentioned the whole lubericity thing as well, but also asked me what year my Treg is and if it was also running Ad Blue system. I told him it was a 2010 and yes it was running Ad Blue. He said to not worry about any additives at all since the 2010's are built to a different standard and don't require it. He said he is starting to see more Semi's coming in with the AdBlue system as well and they don't do anything but fuel and go.

So take this info for what it is worth, but it does come from mechanics who know way more about it then I ever could.

 

[schubie]

Well, actually there is a standard. It's BQ-9000, and what we should be using in B2-5 blends. This distinguishes BD from simple WVO (waste vegetable oil), which we're not supposed to run in our pee-squirter TDIs.

My understanding is the problems associated with BD have mainly come from its solvency. BD is typically created by cutting vegetable (soy) oil with methanol. The latter is an excellent solvent. So much so the seals in some older diesels seem to have issues with even the lowest BD blends. Fortunately, our new TDIs appear to have been designed with use of modest blends in mind.

However, our ULSD has had much of it's lubricity (formerly provided by impurities like sulfer) cooked out of it. In fact, refiners/wholesaler are actually required now to boost lubricity to a minimum standard. Problem is they pushed this standard to be lower than the OE (bosch) specs met in europe & canada. And then there's the question of whether they're complying with this standard...

On the up side, BD blends of at least B2 exceed the bosch lubricity specs. Per the study at the below link, this is ultimately the best 'additive' one can provide in terms of lubricity. I believe B2-5 is also the only thing besides ULSD that VWoA sanctions for use in the V6TDI.

http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

Hope this helps--Chris

 

[Yeti35]

I looked through the PDF, but the issue I have with it is that it was done back in 07 before our TDI's existed. I am not arguing anything with this, but I tend to believe more what was told to me by my friend who works on Semi diesels and is seeing the Urea systems on them also. He is working with more current diesel systems then the guy who works on PU's. I think for me I am going to do a wait and see on this subject.

 

[schubie]

I agree, the information in the lubricity test is dated. It would be very helpful to see some follow up wear testing with real world ULSD. I'd also like to learn what if any steps the clean diesel manufacturers (VAG/MB/BMW) are taking to address this from their end. I actually know someone who works at Robt Bosch on this technology in Auburn Hills. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to follow up with him about this in the near future.

In the meantime, a wait and see approach certainly doesn't sound unreasonable. I'm only advocating B2 use for myself as insurance. Plus it doesn't hurt in contributing to a renewable fuels market.

 

[dcharnet]

Well, the "check system" light went out, so I will not take this to the dealer. For now, and perhaps forever (fuel filler door says "No BD") I will avoid BD. We can all work together to understand the BD-thing better, but I am skeptical. 575 miles so far and very impressed with this elegant, taut, agile and powerful machine.

 

[Yeti35]

My friend who works on the semi diesels says we should not need anything at all added to the tank since 2010 standards for motors are different then what they used to be, so the ULSD is fine with nothing added. The 2009 TDI may be fine to since that is Urea system as well. I don't pretend to know anything about this, but I feel I can trust someone who actually works with this stuff on a daily basis.

 

[schubie]

Well, the "check system" light went out, so I will not take this to the dealer. For now, and perhaps forever (fuel filler door says "No BD") I will avoid BD. We can all work together to understand the BD-thing better, but I am skeptical. 575 miles so far and very impressed with this elegant, taut, agile and powerful machine.

Did you ever figure out what BD/ULSD blend was used prior to the CEL? If you paid via CC and still have the receipt, the grade might be listed on it.

 

[geon116]

I have a new 10 T'reg TDI and am new to diesels. It has 275 miles on it. The dealer filled the tank on pickup last weekend (Saturday). I topped it off last Sunday (6 -7 gallons?) with diesel fuel from a very busy I-80 station that was labelled "BD/ULSD." After driving 75-100 or so more miles, the "check emissions" light came on. Possible cause and effect? I will take it it the dealer Monday, but am interested in any thoughts any of you have.

Hard to say what caused the CE light to go off. Personally, I would decline the free fuel offer from the dealer, unless I was there to watch them fuel it up. That's just me.

Nice wheels. Enjoy.