Basic timing help OBDeleven

The Cream Dolphin

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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
I have an 0̷2 ALH Golf, and I want to find out what my current timing is. It has been having a slow start. I have put a new battery in, checked the glowplugs, adjusted IQ (it is at 4 now), cleaned the intake, rebuilt the starter with new components, and cleaned the MAF. Still slow starts in the cold, and after a bunch of cranking the starter sometimes disengages. I have an obdeleven scanner, and can log into security with "12233" and go into basic settings, and slide to start. From what I understand, it should run on basic settings, and flash the glowplug light, and have ten fields of data. Mine you can hear the engine change very briefly, and then it says error function not available. Info comes up in those 9 fields, but none of the values fluctuate like live data, it seems more like a snapshot. I am not sure if these values are true to basic settings, or why there are only 9 fields, and I am hoping someone can help.

I found this thread extremely helpful, but mine appears differently than theirs. @Matt-98AHU is extremely knowledgable in this thread, I was hoping maybe he could chime in? Thanks in advance everyone, I just want to be able to help my car out. It seems to run fine, but I have never driven another ALH, so who knows if it runs terribly. I think I have read also that advanced timing helps with startup, so I am hoping it is a bit retarded, so I can advance it to help the start🙃

This is what came up on my screen.
 

TDIGAZ

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I’ve only watched over someone’s shoulder as they used obdeleven, so no real experience here but… it looks like from your video the software wants you to wait until the engine is fully warmed up (whatever that means :unsure:).
At least according to the “Description” note
 

The Cream Dolphin

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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
Definitely, it says that when you open the basic settings - 0̷0̷0̷, my engine was definitely warm, full operating temperature. I tried putting IQ back to stock adaptation, noticed my egr was tuned down with adaptation, put it back to stock and tried again. I noticed it seems maybe the missing field is start of injection which seems odd... There is only one value above the throttle speed 0̷, so it is either idle or start of injection that is missing. I wish there were labels. Not sure what to make of that.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
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Edmonton AB Canada
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2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
The chart is needed because the timing is a function of start of injection vs fuel temperature, as measured in real time by a sensor built into the lid of the injection pump.

Fuel temp is important because it affects flame front propagation time. :)
 

The Cream Dolphin

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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
The chart is needed because the timing is a function of start of injection vs fuel temperature, as measured in real time by a sensor built into the lid of the injection pump.

Fuel temp is important because it affects flame front propagation time. :)
You need to find an ALH timing chart (like this http://home.znet.com/clarke2/TIMINGCHART.HTML ) and then after the engine is warmed up, you can locate the values in blocks 2 (vertical/A) and 9 (horizontal/B) on that chart. Anything in the shaded area is within spec. Above the dashed line is advanced.
I understand that, but if it is not reading basic settings, it is adjusted by the so called "cold start solenoid" (N10̷8) so it will automatically be in spec, meaning it will look perfect despite mechanical "static timing" possibly being off. I am trying to determine my static timing to help my start. Since timing is not adjusted by the N10̷8 til the engine has started and the ecu has power, it only gets mechanical timing while the starter cranks, which I suspect is retarded. This could be causing the hard start, but when it does start the ecu adjusts with the N10̷8 and all is fine.

Thanks so much for the thoughts! Anything helps
 
Last edited:

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
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cape cod, ma
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82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
responding here rather than in the mk4 thread....

This sounds great, thanks for all the time, I really appreciate it. This all makes sense, I think I am following along. If I were to try adjusting it my way, do you have any idea if that would be close to the green line, and/or do you think it would be somewhat safe? Understanding I am not trying to adjust for max power, FE, etc. just trying to work with the tools I have, and I AM NOT trying to put the blame of anything I do on you, just hoping for a bit of knowledge from someone who knows more. Regardless of tune, purely aiming for timing degrees, it seems anut using that method got close to the green, and that is all I am hoping to get. If I am totally off and misunderstanding/hoping for too much, just say so. I know I do not have the right tools, and would not have to ask any of this if I just had vcds, so I will not be upset if you just say it is a lot more than I think, and anuts car is not the same as mine. Thanks again, I do love this community, and everything it has to offer(y)
i'm thinking if you're aiming towards getting your pump more advanced, like close to the green, with hot 903rpm idle, IATs 20C+, shoot for actual timing being at 2.5btdc, when spec would be .5btdc. personally, i wouldn't go any more advanced than 1.5btdc actual timing there.

be aware that when you do this, you might gain some efficiency cruising at lower rpms where some extra advance of stock is likely good, but you might lose a bit of torque in the midrange depending how far you go. the timing affects not only the optimal boost, but the boost control. and when air temps change, all of that changes as well... so you'd really be expirementing to see what seems to "drive best" or get better mpg (in some ranges) in your current conditions. come even colder weather, it likely won't hve much affect because timing in the tune is going to advanced because of cold air timing corrections. but in the warmer weather you may realize it doesn't work so good... and feels more lethargic mid-throttle lower rpm. you're over-riding the stock tune in the low rpm areas where stock tune calls for some very retarded timing for low IQ amounts. all this stuff would really be better with just a good tune that optimizes all of these factors (dynamic boost/timing adjustments based on intake air/coolant temps, and altitude) and you set the pump timing to where "tuner" says is best for your hardware :)

i'm not completely sure what your goal is in changing the pump timing? if you want to get the most out of your tdi, and don't want to spend the $$ on a real vcds, you can at least get a $15 vag-kkl cable and use vcds-lite to log data, that would be likely easier to analyze than whatever obd11 does. i'm not at all familiar how it logs data. real vcds would pay for itself however. think how much time it could save you on pump timing alone ;) and time is money
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
also, on a stock tune, unless you're a good bit below the blue line on the graph, advancing the pump timing is not going to have any affect in the upper rpm power delivery performance... at the blue, you will get all the advance at 4000rpm the stock tune calls for... if you're wondering if you're getting all the advance it needs, you simply log spec/actual timing and do a WOT pull to redline and see for yourself. if it gets the advance its' calling for, you're good. advancing the pump more will do nothing there.

the only advantage to advancing pump timing on a stock car, is if you want to use that to "override" the retarded stock timing for low IQ/lower rpm areas to see if that gets you better mpg
 

The Cream Dolphin

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Feb 22, 2021
Location
Fernie, B.C. originally Dwight, ON
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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
responding here rather than in the mk4 thread....



i'm thinking if you're aiming towards getting your pump more advanced, like close to the green, with hot 903rpm idle, IATs 20C+, shoot for actual timing being at 2.5btdc, when spec would be .5btdc. personally, i wouldn't go any more advanced than 1.5btdc actual timing there.

be aware that when you do this, you might gain some efficiency cruising at lower rpms where some extra advance of stock is likely good, but you might lose a bit of torque in the midrange depending how far you go. the timing affects not only the optimal boost, but the boost control. and when air temps change, all of that changes as well... so you'd really be expirementing to see what seems to "drive best" or get better mpg (in some ranges) in your current conditions. come even colder weather, it likely won't hve much affect because timing in the tune is going to advanced because of cold air timing corrections. but in the warmer weather you may realize it doesn't work so good... and feels more lethargic mid-throttle lower rpm. you're over-riding the stock tune in the low rpm areas where stock tune calls for some very retarded timing for low IQ amounts. all this stuff would really be better with just a good tune that optimizes all of these factors (dynamic boost/timing adjustments based on intake air/coolant temps, and altitude) and you set the pump timing to where "tuner" says is best for your hardware :)

i'm not completely sure what your goal is in changing the pump timing? if you want to get the most out of your tdi, and don't want to spend the $$ on a real vcds, you can at least get a $15 vag-kkl cable and use vcds-lite to log data, that would be likely easier to analyze than whatever obd11 does. i'm not at all familiar how it logs data. real vcds would pay for itself however. think how much time it could save you on pump timing alone ;) and time is money
Perfect, thanks so much. That is very much what I was after, and I feel comfortable with that. As far as vcds, I know it is better, but I have never owned a computer, so I am not sure I could figure that one out, but I have obdeleven, and have experience with it. I am fully aware it is not the most effective or accurate method I am going for, I am just trying to make it work for now. As far as my ultimate goal - I am trying to determine where my static timing actually is (I suspect it is quite retarded) and possibly adjust it if I feel it is after logging, so my car will start when it is below -6°C. Right now it cranks for a while at that temp and below, and it gets a lot colder here. So ideally I am after improving my start conditions.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
well, check the case relief valve for one thing

to get pump timing a little more advanced, just log spec/actual at hot 903 idle with IATs >20C (important!) when spec timing is .5btdc . advance the pump a bit until you see the actual timing be 1.0-1.5BTDC, then the pump will be a little bit on the advanced side.

a healthy tdi will start perfectly fine in the cold with pump timing at the blue. if it's not, you likely have some other issues

in my mk1 (11mm .260s tho), my pump timing is set down closer to the red, a little less than halfway between blue and red. fires right up ;)
 

The Cream Dolphin

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Location
Fernie, B.C. originally Dwight, ON
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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
also, on a stock tune, unless you're a good bit below the blue line on the graph, advancing the pump timing is not going to have any affect in the upper rpm power delivery performance... at the blue, you will get all the advance at 4000rpm the stock tune calls for... if you're wondering if you're getting all the advance it needs, you simply log spec/actual timing and do a WOT pull to redline and see for yourself. if it gets the advance its' calling for, you're good. advancing the pump more will do nothing there.

the only advantage to advancing pump timing on a stock car, is if you want to use that to "override" the retarded stock timing for low IQ/lower rpm areas to see if that gets you better mpg
That makes perfect sense! I definitely feel I have a better handle on it now. And I hope the last post I made makes sense, but again, power is not what I am after, I am hoping starting conditions improve, with the timing adjusted to be effective with no ecu input, ie in the classic graph. I want to make starting work properly, then hopefully work with power/FE after that.
 

The Cream Dolphin

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Feb 22, 2021
Location
Fernie, B.C. originally Dwight, ON
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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
well, check the case relief valve for one thing

to get pump timing a little more advanced, just log spec/actual at hot 903 idle with IATs >20C (important!) when spec timing is .5btdc . advance the pump a bit until you see the actual timing be 1.0-1.5BTDC, then the pump will be a little bit on the advanced side.

a healthy tdi will start perfectly fine in the cold with pump timing at the blue. if it's not, you likely have some other issues

in my mk1 (11mm .260s tho), my pump timing is set down closer to the red, a little less than halfway between blue and red. fires right up ;)
Gotcha, sounds good. I think by timing s far off, that is why I am after a way to see if it is. I will take a look at all this for sure. I am hoping it is the timing so I can adjust it and live happily ever after with a starting car... I know it is hopeful. And I will look up the case relief valve, I have not come across that one yet :/
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
you are correct tho, if timing is very retarded for your pump/nozzles cold starts can suffer.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
I have an 0̷2 ALH Golf, and I want to find out what my current timing is. It has been having a slow start. I have put a new battery in, checked the glowplugs, adjusted IQ (it is at 4 now), cleaned the intake, rebuilt the starter with new components, and cleaned the MAF. Still slow starts in the cold, and after a bunch of cranking the starter sometimes disengages. I have an obdeleven scanner, and can log into security with "12233" and go into basic settings, and slide to start. From what I understand, it should run on basic settings, and flash the glowplug light, and have ten fields of data. Mine you can hear the engine change very briefly, and then it says error function not available. Info comes up in those 9 fields, but none of the values fluctuate like live data, it seems more like a snapshot. I am not sure if these values are true to basic settings, or why there are only 9 fields, and I am hoping someone can help.

I found this thread extremely helpful, but mine appears differently than theirs. @Matt-98AHU is extremely knowledgable in this thread, I was hoping maybe he could chime in? Thanks in advance everyone, I just want to be able to help my car out. It seems to run fine, but I have never driven another ALH, so who knows if it runs terribly. I think I have read also that advanced timing helps with startup, so I am hoping it is a bit retarded, so I can advance it to help the start🙃

This is what came up on my screen.
I've got the older interface and app. Doesn't get a lot of use as my default is VCDS (and has been since I first bought VCDS back in... 2006?).

Usually on an EDC15 ECU like what an ALH has, the "slide to activate" is not used. In VCDS it would be an "On/Off/Next" button. If you enter a channel in basic settings on these older ECUs, it is automatically running without having to touch anything else.

Once you get to EDC16 and newer TDIs, that changes. Those you generally have to hit the "on/off/next" button to get it to activate.

Also, you should not need to use any login to activate basic settings on these ECUs. The 12233 login is for adaptations, not basic settings.

On newer TDIs (commonrails, mostly) you'd use 27971 login to enable some basic settings.

When running basic setting 000, field 2 is the raw decimal-digital reading of injection timing. Basic setting 000 shuts off the timing advance solenoid so you can see what the pump mechanical 'start point' for timing is.

The values in field 2 will not appear anything like the measured value block 004 values, which are in degrees before or after top dead center (ATDC, or BTDC respectively).

Generally, I like to see values between 55 and 70 in field 2 and that's pretty much ignoring what the fuel temp is. That is the advanced end of the acceptable range usually, which definitely helps them start easier.

If you want a really nerdy breakdown of what I mean by 'decimal-digital', in computer speak, one byte has 8 bits. A bit can have a value of either a 1 or a 0.

To simplify the display of the 8 1s or 0s in a data block, they get displayed in either decimal format, 256 different values total, 0 to 255, or, they can get displayed in HEXadecimal format, which VW only starts to use with "long coding" on Mk5 and newer cars. Vast majority of their early stuff likes to keep it to decimal. Hexadecimal will have letter values added, which reduces things further to only 2 characters instead of 3 digits.

So, that's the max range of values you can have in block 000 in any field. They're all just raw digital-decimal individual byte readings, 0 to 255, and it so happens that the advanced range of the base pump timing where these seem to start their easiest is between 55 and 70 in basic setting 000, field 2.

Unfortunately, I can't help with your specific version of OBDEleven. I don't have the newer dongle or app to play with.
 

The Cream Dolphin

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Location
Fernie, B.C. originally Dwight, ON
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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
I've got the older interface and app. Doesn't get a lot of use as my default is VCDS (and has been since I first bought VCDS back in... 2006?).

Usually on an EDC15 ECU like what an ALH has, the "slide to activate" is not used. In VCDS it would be an "On/Off/Next" button. If you enter a channel in basic settings on these older ECUs, it is automatically running without having to touch anything else.

Once you get to EDC16 and newer TDIs, that changes. Those you generally have to hit the "on/off/next" button to get it to activate.

Also, you should not need to use any login to activate basic settings on these ECUs. The 12233 login is for adaptations, not basic settings.

On newer TDIs (commonrails, mostly) you'd use 27971 login to enable some basic settings.

When running basic setting 000, field 2 is the raw decimal-digital reading of injection timing. Basic setting 000 shuts off the timing advance solenoid so you can see what the pump mechanical 'start point' for timing is.

The values in field 2 will not appear anything like the measured value block 004 values, which are in degrees before or after top dead center (ATDC, or BTDC respectively).

Generally, I like to see values between 55 and 70 in field 2 and that's pretty much ignoring what the fuel temp is. That is the advanced end of the acceptable range usually, which definitely helps them start easier.

If you want a really nerdy breakdown of what I mean by 'decimal-digital', in computer speak, one byte has 8 bits. A bit can have a value of either a 1 or a 0.

To simplify the display of the 8 1s or 0s in a data block, they get displayed in either decimal format, 256 different values total, 0 to 255, or, they can get displayed in HEXadecimal format, which VW only starts to use with "long coding" on Mk5 and newer cars. Vast majority of their early stuff likes to keep it to decimal. Hexadecimal will have letter values added, which reduces things further to only 2 characters instead of 3 digits.

So, that's the max range of values you can have in block 000 in any field. They're all just raw digital-decimal individual byte readings, 0 to 255, and it so happens that the advanced range of the base pump timing where these seem to start their easiest is between 55 and 70 in basic setting 000, field 2.

Unfortunately, I can't help with your specific version of OBDEleven. I don't have the newer dongle or app to play with.
Great info, thanks for replying Matt. Good to know about the basic settings, i just have a feeling it is not doing the right thing with no glowplug flashing and I am missing a field... which I suspect is field 2. So I am going to try adjustments by comparing specified vs. actual timing in block 0̷0̷4 while seeing how activated the advance solenoid is. Aiming for them to match somewhat low in the duty cycle of N10̷8, to be (hopefully?) close to basic mechanical settings. Then I will see how it starts compared to now. One more thing - I had seen somewhere deep in a thread someone said it was backwards to what I thought, that BTDC meant after not before TDC, maybe meaning beyond, and this is how you just listed it too, is that right? I just always assumed the b and a were for before and after. And as for not being able to help with my version? No problem, I know it is not as capable as vcds, but here I am with it plugged into my car. I made my bed so I can sleep in it, I am just hoping to gather info before I try anything. I would rather be overinformed and know why it did not work, rather than uninformed and try to find out after.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Great info, thanks for replying Matt. Good to know about the basic settings, i just have a feeling it is not doing the right thing with no glowplug flashing and I am missing a field... which I suspect is field 2. So I am going to try adjustments by comparing specified vs. actual timing in block 0̷0̷4 while seeing how activated the advance solenoid is. Aiming for them to match somewhat low in the duty cycle of N10̷8, to be (hopefully?) close to basic mechanical settings. Then I will see how it starts compared to now. One more thing - I had seen somewhere deep in a thread someone said it was backwards to what I thought, that BTDC meant after not before TDC, maybe meaning beyond, and this is how you just listed it too, is that right? I just always assumed the b and a were for before and after. And as for not being able to help with my version? No problem, I know it is not as capable as vcds, but here I am with it plugged into my car. I made my bed so I can sleep in it, I am just hoping to gather info before I try anything. I would rather be overinformed and know why it did not work, rather than uninformed and try to find out after.
BTDC = before top dead center
ATDC = after top dead center

Very rare to see a timing value ATDC. I took home a Jetta ALH from my former shop-mate a few weeks ago. The injection pump on his had something let go inside it, causing the timing to retard badly to give a value of several degrees ATDC and the timing advance circuit was unable to push it further. N108 duty cycle maxed. Car had a real hard time starting, poor power etc.

Put a used pump on it that I had put new seals into, and everything was great. Values back to BTDC, timing advance circuit works great as evidenced by basic settings 004 and the fact that the n108 solenoid duty cycle didn't have to go super high to hit either target in that test.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
physical pump issues aside.... actually, in a high compression alh, ATDC timing - with larger pump/nozzles at least - is a wonderful thing... unless you've driven it, and are used to "over-advanced" tunes - you wouldn't believe it (but fueling/boost need to be very much "right on"). superior low rpm response/torque IMO. with 11mm/.260s i'll inject fuel quite a bit ATDC even up to (and past) alh fueling levels (35mg) at least <3000rpm. pulls amazing, smoke-free... and timing set very far below the blue line, cold starts.. it fires right up :) boost control works a lot nicer when EOI isn't so early in the stroke :)
 

The Cream Dolphin

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Feb 22, 2021
Location
Fernie, B.C. originally Dwight, ON
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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
well, check the case relief valve for one thing
I have been reading about it, and it seems simple enough, but I cannot find out searching if it needs to be reprimed after, and if it will be leaking when I pull it out. I understand it will not be under pressure when it is not running of course, but if there is a line running down to it, maybe it could start pissing out? And lastly, it is a new IP installed by dealer, so I would hope if anything it would just be walked out - not in need of replacement.
BTDC = before top dead center
ATDC = after top dead center
This is as I know things to be as well, but I found one thread where someone said it was backwards so I wanted to TRIPLE check haha thank you.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
If it's a new pump the case relief valve is surely fine. On old pumps it's common they walk out. It's a 5minute check and fix, just need to clean thoroughly around it so crap doesn't fall in. Doesn't leakbbut a few drops
 

The Cream Dolphin

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Joined
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Fernie, B.C. originally Dwight, ON
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02 VW Golf TDI ALH 245k
Also for continuities sake, I am adding Burpods and my conversation before we moved back here, in case anyone ever needs this info to help Not to lose it in the depths of what you did to your mkiv. It always sucks when you find part of a conversation spread over threads but you want to see all the info. These quotes are in order, and they come just before post #8 in this thread. Thanks again burpod and Matt.

Tried again to check timing, but am at a loss on how it works with obdeleven. I followed a thread with instructions exactly but my car is not reading the same as the one mentioned. Any one else have obdeleven experience? I will not clog up this thread with details, but I will link one I made for it. https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/obdeleven-timing-help.531128/ I know VCDS is better, but I do not have a computer, or the knowledge to use one.

I also filled up and tossed some winter additive/cetane boost to hopefully help out.
you really need to be in basic settings seeing the pump graph to properly set timing. the ecu goes into a special program for that, obd11 i'm quite sure does not have that capability, only reading data from the ecu. if you can read spec/actual timing however, with a tune that doesn' thave too much advance at idle you can take an educated guess where it is
OBDeleven does have a basic settings button, I cannot figure it out though. Dunno if other people have got it to work. Burpod that was my plan, if you do not mind helping me feel more confident with my logic. I am running stock, no tune. So I was going to look at measuring block 0̷0̷4, and see if specified meets actual, and what % N10̷8 is at. Because my understanding is - if it did match, but N10̷8 is at say, %60̷, it is advancing halfway up its capability, indicating it is retarded at basic settings. So without having basic settings, is it within reason to work towards having actual meet specified, with N10̷8 at its ~%2 base line? That is what I think makes sense in my head, but I am hoping you can weigh in. I have not looked at it yet on the scanner, I will wait for a day off to rip around and get her warmed up to look at that. But this is what I have scabbed together from many hours of reading many threads, and I am now convinced this is what is causing my long crank.
if car is warm and the intake are tmps are >20C, your spec idle timing should be .5BTDC. i can't remember the exact numbers but if you're above the blue line, you'll probalby see a numbers >.5BTDC, if you were at the green line in basic settings, i want to say you'd be seeing a "minimum" timing of more like 3.0BTDC atual timing at 900rpm. if you're halfway from blue to green, i think you'd be at something lke 2.0BTDC for idle for actual timing. if you're very close to the blue (a good place to be for stock), you will see actual timing be .5BTDC. not 100% on the exactness of those numbers, but should be relatively close

so what you coudl do is retard pump timing and slowly advance it until you start seeing actual timing numbers >.5. then back it out a tiny hair. but with spec timing being at .5BTDC, you won't know for sure if you went "too far". but unless you're going WOT to redline it's not really going to hurt anything, as it's just shifting the available window of timing and on a stock tune, it really won't matter if you're a little bit "retarded"
Awesome, that is very helpful. And is my logic on the N10̷8 right? Because if it is more than its base %2, it is advancing it, adjusting for retarded static timing as I understand. Because the whole idea of basic settings is to disable the N10̷8, getting true static timing. So if it is activated but correct .5BTDC I would advance it slightly because I would know it has to advance it to make it the right spec. so the timing would work when the car is running, ie ECU has power, but when starting unadjusted it will be retarded. Is this right?
you could also log IQ, rpm, spec timing, actual timing and do some low fuel, very low rpm driving and get an idea if pump timing is advanced or not by looking at those values.

you're missing the point a little bit about even messing with the pump timing - you want the pump timing to be set such that the tune can meet spec whenever it asks for it. so you take a log of the above values and see if that is true. if tune is requesting 1.0ATDC and it's not getting it, but rather getting 0.0 then the pump timing is too advanced for the tune - it's essentially overriding what the tune is requesting.. likewise you would want to check the upper rpm/WOT range to see if you're making the amount of advance it's asking for. if not, pump might need advancing. a good tune will have a timing map such that it can always be met given the right physical pump timing.

now on a stock tune, it might be beneficial (and depending on if egr has been deleted or not) to have the pump timing a little on the advanced side to "override" the very retarded timing for low IQ/lower rpm areas. you'd just have to test to see how the performance is one way or another, as well as mpgs.

as for setting pump timing on other tunes, it would really be under the direction of the tuner to specify the correct pump timing for their tune + fueling combo.... i could go on about that subject tho.
If you do not mind one more question, what would I be looking for in those above fields that would indicate advanced, retarded, or on the green line?

Also, anuts first post here is where I got my idea of doing it without basic timing.

https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/tdi-timing-revisited.240450/
if you see actual timing values that are more advanced than spec (this would be happening at lower rpms) on a consistent basis, then your pump is too advanced for the tune. you'd want to pay attention to low-mid IQ areas 1000-2000rpm. you'd then retard it a bit and then re-log. the pump timing mechanism isn't always perfect (and could be sticky too) so you need to look at enough of the numbers to see a consistent pattern. if you're more concerned about reaching full advance requested at high rpm/heavy fuel, you'd look to log those areas and see if pump isn't advanced enough to meet the spec.

but it's a difficult question to answer what is best, because it assumes the tune you're running is perfect, and optimized for your setup. for a stock tune, if you have egr deleted, that can change things. even if egr is present and working, the stock tune isn't necessarily optimal either. so a little extra advance down low rpm very likely a good thing. basically, if the tune is perfect, you want to see spec/actual timing values always match up both on the low rpm and high rpm ends
This sounds great, thanks for all the time, I really appreciate it. This all makes sense, I think I am following along. If I were to try adjusting it my way, do you have any idea if that would be close to the green line, and/or do you think it would be somewhat safe? Understanding I am not trying to adjust for max power, FE, etc. just trying to work with the tools I have, and I AM NOT trying to put the blame of anything I do on you, just hoping for a bit of knowledge from someone who knows more. Regardless of tune, purely aiming for timing degrees, it seems anut using that method got close to the green, and that is all I am hoping to get. If I am totally off and misunderstanding/hoping for too much, just say so. I know I do not have the right tools, and would not have to ask any of this if I just had vcds, so I will not be upset if you just say it is a lot more than I think, and anuts car is not the same as mine. Thanks again, I do love this community, and everything it has to offer(y)
 

Nuje

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Location
Island near Vancouver
TDI
2002 Golf 6MT; 2015 Sportwagen 6MT; 2016 A3 e-tron 6DSG
Pro move there - really good idea copying the conversation from the 12000+ posts "you'll never find it again" WDYDT thread. 👍
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
11mm/.230s + 1752 + other bits.. car tuned by me, and pump timing set almost down to red (a little more than necessary, but just left it there).. fires right up in the cold ;)

here's a crappy video of it starting after sitting 28F overnight:

here's where the pump timing is set:

i don't really have much doubt it will start just as fine at 0F, we shall see as we get into winter...
 
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