Bad fuel or other issue?

[freakmike3]

Hi guys! Been a lurker for a while and decided to create an account finally. Of course I have an issue and needed to post, so convenient eh?

Heres the long version of my long story...

I purchased an 09 Jetta TDI brand new July 09. The first week of Sept this year, while my wife was driving back from a 4 hour road trip she said the engine light came on and the glow plug was flashing. The car was drivable though in limp mode, and she drove the last 10 miles home. Took the car to the shop where the VW guy said after testing a couple things that he thought it was bad fuel. He dropped the tank and said that the filter was a strange color, as was the diesel. They sent a fuel sample out for testing, but nothing was noted except it was a strange color. Further examination found rust in the tank. The tank itself was in good condition, so looks like I pumped in some bad fuel. Due to the color of the filter though, the tech said it didnt look like I had JUST got the bad gas, it looked like the station that I go to all the time possibly did it. OK. Insurance will cover that, no big deal.

They drop the tank, clean it, replace the filters and check the lines and HPFP and think all is ok. No dice. Still have an issue. They contact VW to consult with, and start replacing part by part...by part. I was told last Thursday that the car was ready for pick up. When I went to start it, the check engine and glow plug were lit again. I never left the lot. Took my keys back in and gave them right back. They hooked it up to check the error code and said it was not drivable. The next day they said they thought it was fixed, but the tech wanted to drive it home to make sure it was fine. I ok'd it and they called me the next day to let me know they were towing the car back in as the lights again came on and the car was in limp mode. Sigh.

I called today to see what was found out and was told they honestly had no idea. At this point they have replaced the entire fuel system with the exception of the fuel lines themselves. They have racked up about $6000 in charges, and thats with replacing some parts under warranty.

Now my dilemma is this. Is this really an issue that could have arisen from contaminated fuel? If it was, fine. Insurance takes care of everything except my $250 deductible. If it not, my car is qualified as a lemon in the state of VA. Does anyone have any input or knowledge of what this could be? I love my TDI, and given the option I want a repair (Or another TDI if I get a lemon law replacement). I just wanted to get a little more information/input before I fire off resolution letters to get the legal ball moving.

Pics were sent to me from the tech of the diesel.Thanks!
Mike!

 

[tdidieselbobny]

Lemon it.......... and buy a different vehicle till they get this HPFP bullsh*t figured out.......

 

[aja8888]

Mike: sorry to hear of the dilemma. You have joined an ever growing list of people getting bit by the HPFP failure bug, which is really more like a virus. If you can Lemon the car, take that option.

 

[aintitamazing]

Agreed. Lemon the car.

 

[75r90rider]

Hi guys! Been a lurker for a while and decided to create an account finally. Of course I have an issue and needed to post, so convenient eh?

Heres the long version of my long story...

I purchased an 09 Jetta TDI brand new July 09. The first week of Sept this year, while my wife was driving back from a 4 hour road trip she said the engine light came on and the glow plug was flashing. The car was drivable though in limp mode, and she drove the last 10 miles home. Took the car to the shop where the VW guy said after testing a couple things that he thought it was bad fuel. He dropped the tank and said that the filter was a strange color, as was the diesel. They sent a fuel sample out for testing, but nothing was noted except it was a strange color. Further examination found rust in the tank. The tank itself was in good condition, so looks like I pumped in some bad fuel. Due to the color of the filter though, the tech said it didnt look like I had JUST got the bad gas, it looked like the station that I go to all the time possibly did it. OK. Insurance will cover that, no big deal.

They drop the tank, clean it, replace the filters and check the lines and HPFP and think all is ok. No dice. Still have an issue. They contact VW to consult with, and start replacing part by part...by part. I was told last Thursday that the car was ready for pick up. When I went to start it, the check engine and glow plug were lit again. I never left the lot. Took my keys back in and gave them right back. They hooked it up to check the error code and said it was not drivable. The next day they said they thought it was fixed, but the tech wanted to drive it home to make sure it was fine. I ok'd it and they called me the next day to let me know they were towing the car back in as the lights again came on and the car was in limp mode. Sigh.

I called today to see what was found out and was told they honestly had no idea. At this point they have replaced the entire fuel system with the exception of the fuel lines themselves. They have racked up about $6000 in charges, and thats with replacing some parts under warranty.

Now my dilemma is this. Is this really an issue that could have arisen from contaminated fuel? If it was, fine. Insurance takes care of everything except my $250 deductible. If it not, my car is qualified as a lemon in the state of VA. Does anyone have any input or knowledge of what this could be? I love my TDI, and given the option I want a repair (Or another TDI if I get a lemon law replacement). I just wanted to get a little more information/input before I fire off resolution letters to get the legal ball moving.

Pics were sent to me from the tech of the diesel.

Thanks!

Mike!

IF, and I think that's a decent sized IF, you car insurance covers the cost, I'd have them fix the car, get it running, then trade it somewhere. That saves you the legal hassle and time spent going the lemon route. You probably take a loss on the car that way, though, so that's the disadvantage.

I think the average insurance company might not be so apt to stroke a check for this without a fight, but if yours has indicated that they will, good for you.

The problem with lemon law is, they will probably eventually settle with you and replace the car with another one with what I suspect is the same design flaw. The cars are designed to operate on 460 lubricity fuel and 520 is what is generally available in the US. Continued operation on substandard fuel equals possible component failure again in the future.

I'd get rid of the car as best you can, and then wait a 5 years to see if VW eventually comes up with fuel systems that can reliably run for extended mileages on our US ULSD diesel. Right now, I get the distinct feeling we're the guinea pigs.

Post some pics if you can. I think a lot of us would be real interested to see them.

 

[Dieselfitter]

Or just use a fuel lubricity additive like Power Service!

 

[freakmike3]

My insurance has already stroked the checks to cover the repairs, but I think they are done with that. They called the other day asking for receipts for gas purchases and if I can send them my fuel log since I kept one. They are looking to go after the gas station if they can prove it, but they are also asking why parts are being replaced under warranty now. Was it ever a fuel issue or just a coincident that there this happened. In the weeks leading up to this happening, I had a stall issue here or there, but kind of assumed it was from me stopping then accelerating again quickly. I meant to get it checked or, but had not yet had time.

Under VA lemon law though, since my car has been outta commision for 30 days it qualifies, but ONLY if I can prove it was not bad fuel. After I send my letter, I will wait to see the reply and go from there. If I don't get a TDI because of the HPFP problems... no clue what to get. Ah well, one day at a time right now I guess.

Heres a few more pics that my tech sent me.

 

[Bob S.]

Sorry to read of your problems. You are facing a touch choice. If you go the lemon route you are signifying that you do not think fuel is the issue.

You state your insurance company has already agreed to & has covered some of the costs to date. You might want to read your policy carefully. Likely you are required to co-operate with any subrogation effort they set set forth. If indeed lemoning the car requires you to prove that it was not bad fuel.... You might want to check with your agent &/or get counsel before getting in to deep.

What ever road you take, please notify the NTSB of your problems. See this thread. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=292279

Makes me like my PD more every day. Now, if I could only get an ALH in the MKV chassis.

 

[MostroDiesel]

Certainly sounds like a clear case of bad fuel. You therefore cannot lemon the car, because this is a factor beyond VW's control. NTSB won't care a whit about this instance either.

Not that this excuses the outrageous cost of the repair by any means. It's just that no one would back you in an assertion of the Lemon Law provisions and it'd only cost you more time and money.

Good luck and very sorry to hear this happened to you!

 

[04SlvrJetta]

Well, all of these are contaminated fuel. It's my understanding that disintegrating pumps contaminates the fuel. Wow, what a mess! Best of luck with your problem. I hope everything works out for you.

 

[TwoTone]

Or just use a fuel lubricity additive like Power Service!

I'll get slammed for not being all nice etc..
But where's your study proving that prevents this from happening?

 

[procupine14]

I'll get slammed for not being all nice etc..
But where's your study proving that prevents this from happening?

Not that I can pull them up out of anywhere at the moment but some additives have been proven as a fuel lubricity aid. However, I can't say that I know which ones. I use PowerService on every tank mostly as a Cetane booster since there aren't really a lot of choices when it comes to really good quality diesel around here. However, The PowerSerivce additive I purchase also states that it contains fuel lubricity additives and is ULSD certified.

 

[dweisel]

I can't beleive this! Fuel sample comes back okay,but since its a ''funny color'' it must be bad fuel. If the fuel sample test show no contaminates then the fuel is okay even if its poka-dotted. There seems to be NO end to this contaminated fuel BS.

Mike you do have somewhat of a delima here. I'll reread your post and try to help.The dealership really blew this one in replacing one part at a time. It just doesn't work because if there is any metal contamination from the hpfp.You have just contaminated another new replacement part. The whole system has to be done in one shot. Not replace one part and try the car. replace another part and try the car.

I sent you a pm about your parts.

dweisel

 

[MostroDiesel]

I can't beleive this! Fuel sample comes back okay,but since its a ''funny color'' it must be bad fuel. If the fuel sample test show no contaminates then the fuel is okay even if its poka-dotted. There seems to be NO end to this contaminated fuel BS.

Woops, I blew it on this one. Somehow I read it that the tests confirmed bad fuel, but I was reading too fast apparently.

That's what I get for allowing work to interfere with my TDIClub perusals!

 

[aja8888]

I wonder what the dealer's "funny color" is mean to imply? D2 is various colors as the supplier's add the color based on what they want. Some D2 is green, some is amber, etc.

 

[dweisel]

I wonder what the dealer's "funny color" is mean to imply? D2 is various colors as the supplier's add the color based on what they want. Some D2 is green, some is amber, etc.

Thats what I don't understand??? Fuel sample is okay, but fuel is a "funny color" so that makes it bad fuel!

Since when is a "funny color" indicative of bad fuel.

I would think that if VW saw this fuel line up they would say "the fuel on the far left is a funny color and therefore is bad fuel"
When in fact it is good fuel with off road dye.I think there will be lots of funny colored fuel out there with the more widespread use of bio D because its not as clear looking as regular D2.

 

[tcp_ip_dude]

I'll get slammed for not being all nice etc..
But where's your study proving that prevents this from happening?

While it doens't prove that an HPFP failure won't occur. If in fact lubricity is the culprit, then according to the "Spicer" testing report, Power Service Diesel Kleen yields a 61 micron improvement on the HFRR score test. That would raise our diesel's 520 score to just inside (459) the Bosch recommended 460 HFRR score. That is using the minimum 400:1 ratio, according to the manufacturer you can double that ratio for increased cetane and lubricity.


Of course there are other additives that will improve lubricity. I just happen to use Power Service at a 400:1 ratio to hopefully bring my lubricity into spec. I'm using the minimum amounts just on the outside chance the additive may have some negative impact on the DPF, even though PS explicitly states it is safe to use with DPF emission systems. It's a calculated risk that I think makes sense as a preventative measure based on what I know about HPFP failures at this point. i.e. Potentially big upside with little downside.

Spicer report:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1784831

 

[freakmike3]

Well, I guess, does anyone think they fuel "looks funny" in either picture? I sent an email to the tech who is working on my car. He is a friend of a friend, so maybe he will give me a straight answer about what is up. When I called and asked for the address to send correspondence to, the service advisor immediately says "this isn't going to be covered as a lemon." I didn't even mention it. Someone is bull****ting me I think.

If the fuel was fine, there was just rust in the tank from a service station and it clogged the filter, but the filter did its job and nothing got past it, why didn't changing the filter and cleaning the tank cure the issue? Could the clogged line have caused the HPFP to fail since no fuel was getting to it? but it wasnt fully clogged because the car still ran, just in limp mode.

The last they said was when they changed the filter, it reset the error code, but made the error come back because it may "take a few cycles to get rid of anything bad." What does that mean? She said there may still be bad fuel, it needs to run it out. If the tanks and lines were cleaned, how is there bad fuel still anywhere in the car?

Also, would any of you expect a filter to be that color if a car had 10k miles on it? Any specific questions I should ask my mechanic?

 

[tcp_ip_dude]

Well, I guess, does anyone think they fuel "looks funny" in either picture? I sent an email to the tech who is working on my car. He is a friend of a friend, so maybe he will give me a straight answer about what is up.
Also, would any of you expect a filter to be that color if a car had 10k miles on it?

I didn't see any pics posted of your fuel, I see the pics 'dweisel' posted of his samples. Regarding your comment about the fuel filter capturing rust that might be in the fuel, keep in mind there are many other forms of fuel contamination that a fuel filter may not capture. (i.e. gasoline, water, etc)

 

[freakmike3]

I didn't see any pics posted of your fuel, I see the pics 'dweisel' posted of his samples. Regarding your comment about the fuel filter capturing rust that might be in the fuel, keep in mind there are many other forms of fuel contamination that a fuel filter may not capture. (i.e. gasoline, water, etc)

Odd, I could see them on the page. Maybe a link error. I uploaded to photobucket and linked them. Let me know if you see them on the first page now.

There was no indication that there was anything in the fuel other than the rust in the bottom of the tank, no water, no gasoline, nada.

 

[tcp_ip_dude]

Odd, I could see them on the page. Maybe a link error. I uploaded to photobucket and linked them. Let me know if you see them on the first page now.

There was no indication that there was anything in the fuel other than the rust in the bottom of the tank, no water, no gasoline, nada.

Yes, I can see the pic now. I'm no expert on visual inspection of diesel so I'll defer to others on that.

But the shriveled Styrofoam cup is a red flag. Gasoline dissolves Styrofoam, hence it is a 'litmus' test of sorts for the presence of gas since pure diesel does not have the same effect. It's certainly not a conclusive test since there are many types of Styrofoam, but it does warrant further investigation of the fuel, I'd get an independent lab analysis of the fuel.

 

[MostroDiesel]

...the shriveled Styrofoam cup is a red flag. Gasoline dissolves Styrofoam, hence it is a 'litmus' test of sorts for the presence of gas since pure diesel does not have the same effect.

Someone in one of the other HPFP threads observed that Biodiesel will also mangle a styrofoam cup, and almost all commercially available diesel contains some amount of biodiesel as a matter of course. So this test is possibly not to be considered valid.

 

[tcp_ip_dude]

Someone in one of the other HPFP threads observed that Biodiesel will also mangle a styrofoam cup, and almost all commercially available diesel contains some amount of biodiesel as a matter of course. So this test is possibly not to be considered valid.

Hence my qualifying comment, "It's certainly not a conclusive test"

 

[dweisel]

Mike, as far as the color of the fuel....................it doesn't have a "funny color" but thats just my opinion. As far as the rust. Was the rust on the bottom of the fuel tank or just in the fuel sending unit? The pics you have are of rust in the fuel sending unit.


I had rust in both 09's I own in the fuel sending units.It was only in the fuel sending units and not the bottom of the fuel tanks. The only source I could find was the metal rods on the fuel sending unit itself. The rust in your fuel sending unit looks the same only in a larger quantity.

dweisel

 

[dweisel]

Yes, I can see the pic now. I'm no expert on visual inspection of diesel so I'll defer to others on that.

But the shriveled Styrofoam cup is a red flag. Gasoline dissolves Styrofoam, hence it is a 'litmus' test of sorts for the presence of gas since pure diesel does not have the same effect. It's certainly not a conclusive test since there are many types of Styrofoam, but it does warrant further investigation of the fuel, I'd get an independent lab analysis of the fuel.

Depends how long the styrofoam cup was in the diesel. I did some testing and straight D2 disolved styrofoam if left overnight.

dweisel

 

[freakmike3]

Mike, as far as the color of the fuel....................it doesn't have a "funny color" but thats just my opinion. As far as the rust. Was the rust on the bottom of the fuel tank or just in the fuel sending unit? The pics you have are of rust in the fuel sending unit.


I had rust in both 09's I own in the fuel sending units.It was only in the fuel sending units and not the bottom of the fuel tanks. The only source I could find was the metal rods on the fuel sending unit itself. The rust in your fuel sending unit looks the same only in a larger quantity.

dweisel

I am not sure. I would have to ask that. When I was told there was rust it was "in the tank" but they have meant in the fuel sending unit. I need to take a look at what connects to what. My first diesel and not sure which part goes where. I have time this week, I am gonna sit down and look at what goes where, like where does the sending unit sit compared to the fuel filter, etc... looks like I am gonna learn a lot about the fuel system fast.

I emailed the tech, so gonna give him a few days to get back to me. I hate going through the service adviser, as it feels they are just reading some stuff from a sheet and have no clue what it mean. Funny, when I first called after it when in the shop to inquire if it was the HPFP that went bad, I was told no, and that they had not heard of any issues with the HPFP... LMAO...

 

[freakmike3]

Also, thanks to everyone who has posted/sent a PM about my situation. I appreciate it.

 

[dweisel]

Mike, I'll try and explain how things work. Think of a diesel fuel system as a loop. When the engine is running fuel is constantly circulated in this loop. This loop does have some places where it branches off,but basically the fuel starts in the fuel tank and any unused fue returns to the fuel tank.
Lets start in the fuel tank. Inside the fuel tank is the fuel sending unit. Think of it as a small bucket that sits on the bottom of the fuel tank which contains a elec.pump. The job of this elec. pump is to pump fuel to the fuel filter. Now lets look at how the bucket in the fuel sending unit functions. When you fill your fuel tank the fuel level rises within the fuel tank and when it gets to the rim of this bucket it flows into the bucket and with a fully full tank of fuel the bucket is submerged in fuel. So, no worry about the fuel level in the bucket. Once the fuel level in the fuel tank gets below the rim of the bucket the bucket will still stay full and overflowing with fuel because the return fuel line dumps directly into this bucket. So, the bucket always has more fuel flowing into it than is being pumped to the fuel filter. If you look at the fuel sending unit you will see two fuel fittings at the top. One is supply fuel to the filter and the other is return fuel that is not used at the engine.

The fuel sending unit does have a fine screen to protect the sending unit pump from sediment and other solid contaminates.(rust) Once the fuel is pumped through the fuel sending unit it travels to the fuel filter through a black colored plastic supply fuel line that is attached to the fuel sending unit supply fitting. (if you look under the right rear passenger seat) you will see the top of the sending unit with the black supply fuel line and the blue return fuel line. Once the fuel enters the fuel filter canister is filtered by passing through the filter. Fuel is pushed by the sending unit pump through the filter and on to the elec. boost pump. This boost pump the pumps fuel on to the hpfp. Lots of complicated stuff happens in the hpfp,but basically the hpfp pressurizes some fuel into the fuel rail to maintain injection pressures.The hpfp also has a low pressure side that mainly acts to lubricate the hpfp. So, the hpfp also has return fuel line which is low pressure.. Any fuel not used by the injectors now travels through the return lines from the injectors where it joins in with return fuel from the hpfp. This return fuel then runs back to the fue filter where it is used to heat the fuel in the fuel canister in colder temperatures. This heating is a whole other long process that I'm not going to explain now.

Return fuel from the filter then returns to the fuel tank via the blue plastic return fuel line which dumps this fuel back into the bucket of the fuel sending unit. Circle complete. Damn, thats a lot of typing on my phone. Thats basically how it works and I'm sure you are now throughly confused. Thats the simple version, it gets a lot more complex once you start looking at how each component actually functions. Sorry for any typo's. I'll proof read it later.

Mike, I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
dweisel

 

[freakmike3]

Dweisel, thanks! That's a good place to start for me. I've searched a lot of stuff online and downloaded a bunch of stuff to read.

Spoke to my service adviser this morning. She said VW is sending out a specialist to take a look at the car and to help the tech out. They also want to run 2 more tests on the fuel and will be sending that off next week once the specialist gets there.

 

[dweisel]

Dweisel, thanks! That's a good place to start for me. I've searched a lot of stuff online and downloaded a bunch of stuff to read.

Spoke to my service adviser this morning. She said VW is sending out a specialist to take a look at the car and to help the tech out. They also want to run 2 more tests on the fuel and will be sending that off next week once the specialist gets there.

Hmmmmmmmm, specialist............now that is extremely interesting. Do you think just maybe,VW is realizing they have a BIG problem. I'll go out on a limb and make some guesses that the two test are for lubricity and for the fuels ability to cause corrosion. or loss of lubricity due to heat.

dweisel