Bad Dual Mass Flywheel?

BearForceOne

Active member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Location
MI, 48348
TDI
2001 Jetta, Tornado Red
Hey all, I've been driving my '01 Jetta for about two months now mostly trouble free. It's at 346k miles and runs like a champ, save for burning some oil. I've noticed, since I began driving it, whenever I start from a stop and let the clutch out, the car shakes pretty noticeably until the clutch is fully engaged and the car is in motion. There is also a bit of shake I can feel in the pedal with it fully depressed. All other shifts are perfectly fine without incident and it's driven fine, until today.

On my 30 mile commute, almost every time I tried to start from a complete stop in first, the engine would stall. I noticed the clutch didn't feel like it was grabbing at all like it was before, the car would barely creep forward, and no matter how slowly I let off the clutch or how much fuel I gave it, it would almost always stall. I ended up having to start in second to get it home, which is less than optimal. I also noticed it is much harder to get into first from neutral, needing returned to neutral and aggressively pushed into first.

I know the characteristic symptom of a failing DMF is a clatter coming from the transmission, which I don't hear at all. However I can't figure anything else that would cause these issues, and assuming it's the original flywheel I wouldn't be surprised if it went at 346k miles. The transmission definitely feels its age and the synchro for first gear isn't it good shape (I have to depress the clutch and hold it for a moment before putting the transmission in first, otherwise it grinds), however I don't think it's a transmission issue.
Has anyone experienced something similar to this when their DMF has failed, or maybe has some other input or suggestions? I would greatly appreciate it, as this is my daily driver and I need it back on the road ASAP.

Thank you!

 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
For what's it's worth, the OE DMF in my 2000 Jetta was fine at 291k miles. It was not giving any problems at all. However, while doing a front suspension re-fresh, I dropped the tranny and replaced the DMF.

And, I replaced one on a friend's 03 with just over 342k miles. It was wasted along with the throw-out bearing and clutch release fork. The TO bearing had virtually disintegrated and the clutch release fork had been rubbing the fingers of the pressure plate. I have it hanging on my garage wall for a conversation piece and somewhere I have pics of the entire mess.

So, you may very well be getting close to the latter scenario.
 
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Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
what ever you do, beef up that fork with some crafty welds, not much room to add but its doable.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
The symptoms you describe could be caused by any number of things. And I would question whether, at 346K miles, your car still has the OE DMF and clutch. Tired engine and dogbone mounts can cause shaking on start off. And poor boost response or low fueling could be the cause of the stalling. Unwillingness to engage first could be a clutch problem, a synchro problem, low transmission fluid, or poor linkage adjustment. Or a faulty flywheel.

I'd investigate the things that don't require removing the transmission before assuming you need a clutch. Not saying you don't, but it's possible.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
There are a few ways the DMF can deteriorate. One is like you said; it can get loose between the two masses, flop around and get off balance causing the noise and vibration. This can cause the parts to wear a notch into the end of the crankshaft.

The center mass can also lose its ability to remain centered and lock up in that position causing the vibration like a D/A sander.


And, of course, a worst case scenario where the DMF can lose internal parts into the bell housing and ruin it.

I make a determination if it is a flywheel or a cylinder/injector issue by checking Group 13 in the engine controller for injector balance deviation. If the injectors are reasonably close then the flywheel is usually the culprit.

It has been very rare that I have found a motor mount to be the issue in the problem you've described.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
A agree that a motor mount wouldn't cause the shifting problem, but it could be the source of the shudder on take off.
 

BearForceOne

Active member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Location
MI, 48348
TDI
2001 Jetta, Tornado Red
A agree that a motor mount wouldn't cause the shifting problem, but it could be the source of the shudder on take off.
That had been my thought as well, just hadn't had time to diagnose it. I don't have much in terms of service history on the car and it definitely wasn't taken care of as well as it should've been, so failing mounts aren't out of the picture as far as the shudder goes.

There is a used single mass flywheel, clutch, PP, and throw out bearing/fork out of a 1.8T O2J for sale locally, would that bolt on to and hold the power of a stock ALH? I've read the bolt pattern is the same but there is a difference in the clutch pocket depth, being a complete kit though I'd imagine it could work. At the very least, it would allow me to verify the problem lies in the DMF and get the car driveable until a proper SMF conversion comes in.
 
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jmodge

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Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
Idparts has a reasonably priced vr6 kit, they ship fast to our area also. That is Peter inpost 4 and 6
 

BearForceOne

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Jul 17, 2017
Location
MI, 48348
TDI
2001 Jetta, Tornado Red
Idparts has a reasonably priced vr6 kit, they ship fast to our area also. That is Peter inpost 4 and 6
I actually have the IDParts VR6 kit saved and it's likely what I'll go with once the problem is confirmed to be the DMF.
 

jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
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2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
If you do that replace the fork, pivot, and retainer clip also. My opinion it is not worth doing twice because of the labor if it is the clutch.
Google linkage adjustment, common 1st gear issue. Dieselgeek short shifter is a good investment if you have worn parts.

Parking brake on and let clutch start to engage forward to reverse while someone watches the mounts and dogbone, or vice versa.

Do you have the same engagement issue starting in 2nd or reverse? Failing DMF can feel like your slave or master is not working properly also

Always possible there may be more than one issue.
 

BearForceOne

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Jul 17, 2017
Location
MI, 48348
TDI
2001 Jetta, Tornado Red
If you do that replace the fork, pivot, and retainer clip also. My opinion it is not worth doing twice because of the labor if it is the clutch.
Google linkage adjustment, common 1st gear issue. Dieselgeek short shifter is a good investment if you have worn parts.

Parking brake on and let clutch start to engage forward to reverse while someone watches the mounts and dogbone, or vice versa.

Do you have the same engagement issue starting in 2nd or reverse? Failing DMF can feel like your slave or master is not working properly also

Always possible there may be more than one issue.
Currently has a dieselgeek short throw, I'll double check the linkage on it but it didn't look to have changed. It seems fine in second and reverse, starting in second isn't smooth but that's expected, on level ground it doesn't stall whereas first would
 

jmodge

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Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
I wonder if it is not going into first, but 3rd instead? I don't know if it can lock up between 1st and reverse, had old Chevy 4 speeds do that before, the linkage.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
I don't know how to tell if the DMF is bad, bet folks who see a lot of these cars can tell.
Possible help-
Go to this site-
Google Advanced Search

Put "bad dual mass flywheel" in the first line.
Scroll down and put in the site to search "youtube.com"
Hit search and you'll get a selection of videos for this very thing.
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
If it were me, at 345,000, I would replace the clutch and components. I would check the mounts to see if they're in need of service and just do it at once.

The risk of tearing up the transmission is too great and it's about time it seems.
My car had a manual transmission swap and I replaced the clutch at 305k. I did do some power mods in the last year and I think that helped push it over the edge Wear item needs replacement every so often.

Also my symptoms of bad dual mass were similar. Couldn't go into first unless I started in first, then shifts fine. I also had to replace the bushing. You said you have a short throw, so that's likely not going to an issue.
 
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Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
The 1.8 is not the clutch for you. Wrong flywheel.

If you are going to be stock all the way, we provide a great clutch with the right flywheel. The difference with our flywheels is we balance and surface grind every flywheel. Average out-of-balance is 2.4 grams, worst, 12.5 gr. We make them 0.0gr. It's easier on your main bearings. This is a place where 'close enough' is not good enough for me.

There are several things to consider. First, it's a Michigan car. That usually means there are other parts you have to consider replacing due to the road salts you are facing for much of the year. Output shaft seal and pilot bearing slide, pivot pin, worn fork, especially on an car with 300k+ miles should be considered. Personally, I'd rather return an unneeded part than to wait for it to show up in three days...

Also, we can see shifting being a problem with a badly worn DMF, but the other constant issue is installing a GL-5 gear oil. Some say there is a combo GL-4/ GL-5. In my opinion, that is impossible. The amount of sulphur and phosphorus is greater in the GL-5, which is detrimental to brass synchronizers. The sulphur and phosphorus bind under heat to make a sacrificial coating on the synchros. When the coating breaks off of brass synchros, it takes molecules of brass with the coating. The GL-5 is intended for steel synchros, not 'old school' brass, like what's in our 02J's, etc.
 

GCBUG00

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Jun 9, 2013
Location
Hartsville SC
TDI
2000 Beetle
Frank06,

In fairness to discussions stating a balance value w/o noting the correction radius is like stating tighten to 65 LB. instead of 65 LB/FT.

GCM is a pretty common balance reference.

Gary
 

Franko6

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May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Gary,

Isn't that Ft. lbs.? Really, that becomes semantics.

Seems a rather picky point, as I don't care if it's grams off on a 228 or a 240mm flywheel, or whatever else you might consider in a TDI. Weight is weight. Balance is balance. Circumference and rotational force would increase the dynamic effect in the larger flywheel. If we were talking a Mac Truck, maybe 2.4gr would not be as much a difference, but still, ZERO is ZERO.

1 oz (28gr) on a 396 flywheel we once messed with, equals a mis-balance of 3 lbs at 3,000 rpm. I really don't care where exactly the balance error is, exactly. Wherever the imbalance is, it adversely affects main bearings and will cause unnecessary vibration.

Do you mean Gross Combination Mass (GCM)? That is usually interchangable with GVW, although I don't think that is how you are intending to use it. With flywheels, especially when we are being so specific as a 1.9 TDI, there aren't a lot of choices in flywheel dimensions; maybe weights, but with that consideration, I'm not thinking there is really any difference in total mass deviation, given a lighter weight flywheel and the same imbalance, that is would make equally the same effect. You could make an argument about that, but if taken purely as a swinging weight, that seems to make sense.

So, what is your point?

And it's not Frank-Zero-Six.. It's Frank-Oscar-sixer.
 

BearForceOne

Active member
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Jul 17, 2017
Location
MI, 48348
TDI
2001 Jetta, Tornado Red
Well, I've got a new VR6 clutch kit/SMF conversion, clutch fork, pivot, and retaining clip arriving tomorrow from IDParts, I'll post some pictures of what I find in the car and take a peek at all the mounts and whatnot as well.
My plans are to drop the whole engine/trans/suspension cradle, is there a better/faster way of changing a clutch in these cars I'm not aware of?
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
Just use a 4x4 and a couple wedges with a hole placed for a hook to lift the engine and support it. Then separate the trans dropping it slowly.
The trans is light, but it does help to have a lift for the car. Otherwise, it's easier to pull the front end.
I did mine on a lift and pretty much lifted the trans back into place by hand, it's light comparatively, 96lbs I believe. Used a rope to secure it and align it with the spline shaft and bolts.
I didn't take the radiator out as I would if I didn't have a lift, so that made it easier to lift by hand.


Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Isn't that Ft. lbs.? Really, that becomes semantics.
.

On the other hand, I've never heard the term Meter Newtons.:eek:

Lb/ft sounds more logical and correct. But, any Google reference I have found uses ft/lbs.
Anyway...back to the show.
 
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Franko6

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Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Only Bergell, Marty would think in Meter Newtons(Wouldn't that be meters Newton?).

The weight of a flywheel makes itself a problem. When we say 'balance 'em', shipping to and from us challenges the original cost of the part. The other problem is you can't hardly tell if it 1) really got balanced and 2) how can you confirm it's really is balanced? At that point, you have to trust. Or just be comfortable in you naivety to trust the Chinaman who balanced it at the factory. We think if you buy from a reputable source, who knows and understands the issue, your chance of getting quality increases dramatically. Unfortunately, that means additional expense and most vendors would rather choose ignorance

It just is sensible, as we see it, to take the part that Sachs has been making in China, now, for over 10 years and check the accuracy of the Chinese workmanship. Unfortunately, they are not all so great. We do not have issue with the casting, only the finish machining and balancing.

I cannot make a blanket statement about any other origin of manufacture of flywheel or clutch kits, but our sourcing information is from a ZF buyer. There have been some claims the flywheel is made in Korea (maybe North Korea?), but that is at best a cover story.

As example, one of the major issues with the recently replaced North American Free Trade Agreement; now USMCA, was nations like Mexico bringing in Chinese parts and then advertising Origin of Manufacture statements like, "Assembled in Mexico". That is code for Made in China. One of USMCA's intents is to close importation portals, like Canada and Mexico.

Since Chinese manufacture is well known in many situations for their 'quality fade', we find it important to double-check workmanship. The buying public are mostly naive about engine balance. To lack the understanding and install questionable parts is to shorten engine life expectancy.

Reference the following:

https://www.forbes.com/2007/07/26/c...nage-cx_kw_0726whartonchina.html#7071f6e3462d

In another ongoing issue, cam followers (lifters) are being sold pervasively from a number of vendors, that are 'no name' CRAP. There is one company that are nitriding these lifters to be sold for the Pumpe Duese engines, or as I refer to it; making a silk purse from a sow's ear. The issue is that the lifter tops are thinner and not the proper hardness, as also are the plungers, which directly contact the valve stem. Premature wear at 1/5th life expectancy is the norm for the 'no name' lifters.

It's not always, 'You get what you pay for.', as the pricing is close to the retail cost of properly manufactured units, from reliable manufacturers, who stamp their name and part number onto the cam follower. But there is a very high profitability for the unscrupulous retailer!

When your cylinder head comes my way and my comment is, "Your lifters are worn out because they are 'Chinese Replacement Auto Parts'(CRAP), check your source and then realize, they got you... the cheap part is at least 1/2 the cost of the name-brand part, but the CRAP part lasts 1/5th as long.
 

noob_tl

Veteran Member
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Mar 30, 2012
Location
Central Indiana
TDI
2003 NB
On the other hand, I've never heard the term Meter Newtons.:eek:

Lb/ft sounds more logical and correct. But, any Google reference I have found uses ft/lbs.
Anyway...back to the show.

In the spirit of picking nits, it's ft-lb or lb-ft, not ft/lb or lb/ft. It's a multiplication, not a division, which is why it can be written either way.
 

BearForceOne

Active member
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Jul 17, 2017
Location
MI, 48348
TDI
2001 Jetta, Tornado Red
Alright, here's my update!

Started and finished installing an IDParts VR6 single mass flywheel clutch kit this weekend, the dual mass flywheel that was in the car was well on its way out and the throw out bearing was loose and completely dry. The clutch face of the flywheel had about 30 degrees of unsprung rotation and continued to rotate past that still, and could shift about a quarter of an inch outside eccentricity, making it a sloppy mess.
With the new clutch kit and throw out bearing/clutch fork installed the car feels way better to drive with a lot less vibration and a much better pedal feel.
There was one time on my commute today that the car stalled at a hill start, I tried to replicate it later on a steeper hill but it didn't stall, so for now I'll call it user error though it did feel a little weird.
I do notice a good amount of air bubbles in the fuel supply line to the injection pump, although the car runs and drives fine otherwise I'd like to correct that, as it could possibly mean less fuel and less power which, if timed just wrong, I believe could mean a stall. I also noted in the clutch job that the upper transmission mount was pretty loose, and I believe could be causing some of the vibration on starts.

Asides from basics like a new fuel filter and maybe some Stanadyne, what else should I throw at this car to get it to a comfy "stage 0" and begin troubleshooting the little problems?
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I see IDParts sells a VR6, but from an unnamed source. I get warm fuzzy feelings when I hear that...

I prefer working with known sources with a reputable name.

Stage 0?? I think that is what you call a STOCK TUNE. Why bother?

Air bubbles are not so unusual. Unless you have a fuel starvation issue, forgedaboudit.
 
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AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
The air is likely coming in at the Thermo T fitting on the fuel filter. My 2000 Jetta did that for as long as I owned it (over 330k miles). Now, my new to me 03, does the same thing. By design, the return fuel at the T fitting is filtered again as it passes through filter as well as the air. Unless there is a very continuous flow of bubbles, they will not cause a problem, especially pulling out on a hill. Keep in mind, the Injection Pump also contains a vane pump that has a very strong suction. Thus, any weak spot in the fuel system, such as the two little O-rings on the bottom of the T fitting, is likely to allow some air to be pulled in.

The SMF from Idparts should be smooth with no vibes. I've installed that flywheel kit with very good results. You could have worn CV joints, worn dog bone mount, worn tranny mount and/or motor mount, which can cause vibes, especially in combo. Also, when the last TB job was done, did the engine motor mount (there by the coolant expansion tank) get properly aligned? Bentley says it must be aligned properly to prevent wear on the CV joint(s).
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Air bubbles are not so unusual. Unless you have a fuel starvation issue, forgedaboudit.

HUH?:confused: When I see air bubbles in the fuel line, I start looking for problems.
 
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jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
HUH?:confused: When I see air bubbles in the fuel line, I start looking for problems.
I think they were talking about bubbles in the bathtub Marty
 
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