b6/b5/mk5 swap starting soon-round table discussion!

[lagomorph]

I'm getting ready to start another project.
It's going to be either a B6 wagon, B5 wagon, or a MK5 rabbit conversion.

I would like some help on deciding which route to go.

Of all the cars I've driven lately, the B6 wagon is the nicest, for sure. Prices are coming down to the point where it's reasonable to buy one to tear apart. I'm still waffling though, between the audis and a mk5 rabbit.
It comes down to the complexity of the AWD system and maintenance of said system, since my only other AWD car ever was a 1.8 subaru outback sport. That car needed way too much work drivetrain-wise to be reliable.
I tried to have a discussion with some of my local friends, but it ended up being a "keep the M5" discussion, and not what I was trying to talk about.

Can we discuss the high and low points of swapping into the various cars?
i.e. Mk5 rabbit, late model B5 wagon, or B6 wagon?
overall project price and fuel economy are the two major factors for me, but if there's hidden factors I'm not considering, let's get it all out on the table.
I'm no stranger to swaps. My 77 rabbit has a TDI swap, and my jetta wagon that I had was converted to TDI. I know it's all a big stack of work, but I'd like the advice of some other seasoned swap pros, and I know there's lots of you way more proficient than I.
Here's a quick start-

mk5-pros- US Spec motor, drivetrain, 2wd economy. definitely a unique swap (in the US)
cons- not awd, not a wagon-car acquirement price is higher, drivetrain cost-@5k. will fit in my tiny garage at home. One piece wiring harness.

b5 pros-AWD, documented prior swaps, so knowledge base is present. cars are becoming less expensive to acquire. If I end up selling two cars I've got, I may be able to nearly pay for the whole car+ swap and have no car payment, or a very small one.
cons-older car, styling a little more dated than the b6, pre-facelift cars are going to need more work to refresh along the way. Mileage penalty for AWD, cost-I would guess about the same? 5k... Might fit in my tiny garage at home. not certain about the harness.

b6 pros- AWD, styling is easily my favorite of the three. newer car may need less incidentals than b5. unique swap for sure (here)
cons-won't fit in the tiny garage at home. not certain about the harness. parts more expensive than the b5.

thanks for your input....

 

[vwmikel]

I think a serious con of the Audi's will be the transmissions. You're really not going to be able to find anything in the US that is longitudinal AWD with the correct TDI ratios which is going to compromise some of the cost advantage....probably to the tune of $2-3k. What kind of prices are you looking for with each of theses cars?

 

[lagomorph]

it seems like a common theme is 10k.
I can get a decent mk5 for 10k, with anywhere from 35-75k miles.
I can get a b6 wagon for 10k, with 75k and up miles.
I can get a b5 wagon in really awesome shape for 10k, but most are going for 6-9k, in reasonable condition.

I'm selling my e28 M5 to pay for the vehicle, and my jetta coupe to pay for the swap or mods. I expect to finance a small portion of the project, but it's still in the planning phase.

I also expect to drive the car as is for a while. I'd really like to be able to pick up a whole swap for whatever I end up with, trans included. obviously another plus towards the mk5...

 

[fishmando]

I am literally planning this same project to be started in a year or so.

I want to drive more Audis to make up my mind about which car to start with.

Avants are so nice!

 

[lagomorph]

I just contacted the dept. of ecology in WA., to make sure that I can get a swapped vehicle through emissions without issues. Seems like the biggest limiting factor in the swap.
Here's a copy of the email I sent.

Hello,
I was considering the possibility of converting a passenger vehicle for personal use to diesel power, and would like to know if there would be any difficulties in getting it approved for emissions testing.
I was considering the following vehicles.
2006 VW rabbit, using 2006-2007 VW jetta TDI drivetrain.
1996-2001 Audi A4 - using 2002-2005 VW Jetta drivetrain
2002-2005 Audi A4 - using 2002-2005 VW Jetta drivetrain (year dependent)
If you could give me insight on making sure I meet the requirements of the testing program, I'd appreciate it. Or any hurdles I may encounter in getting the vehicle approved. All would use the emissions equipment from the donor vehicle, so I know they would pass an OBD port scan, and tailpipe test. I'd hate to spend the money to convert the car, and find out I can't drive it.
If you're not able to provide information, could you forward this e-mail to personnel that could?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.
Jeff Evans

This could be the biggest hurdle in the swap, but fortunately- we aren't as strict as CA. When I did the mk4- I rolled up with a TDI badge on the front, and they tested it as a diesel. No problem.
The issues I see with these swaps right now-no history on them, there was a 2002 Jetta TDI wagon, so 2001 seemed OK.
There's no US TDI 2006 rabbit, B6 Audi A4, or B5 A4 in their system. That really could end up being a limiting factor, but we'll see.

 

[vwmikel]

If you're really concerned about emissions you should probably stick with the Jetta to Rabbit swap because with the other swaps there will likely be diagnostic codes that you can't get rid of without also stopping the readiness codes from setting. There may not technically be a 2006 Rabbit TDI, but if it's a diesel I don't think you'd have any trouble getting them to test it as a diesel. I've blocked a lot of different codes for various reasons but it is no simple task to target an obscure one.

 

[lagomorph]

The only reason I'd be concerned about emissions is every two years you've gotta have no check engine light to get through the testing procedure. I hope to know more in the next day or so.
Maybe the only way to get AWD ( not essential ) is to do a 4-motion swap on the mk5.

 

[vwmikel]

A 4 motion swap in a MK5 sounds like a huge pain. There are a lot of electronics that go along with that one and I don't think any of the US TDI ECU's are meant to work with the 4 motion system so it probably wouldn't communicate with the haldex controller. It's not impossible, but it's one more hurdle.

If all you want is no check engine light then that can be solved by removing the bulb

 

[lagomorph]

until you have to test the car and it's a mandatory fail if you get a code through the OBD port.

 

[vwmikel]

until you have to test the car and it's a mandatory fail if you get a code through the OBD port.

I'm not sure if they plug into the port all the time or if that's only if there's a check engine light?

I guess that wouldn't make much sense if the cel causes you to fail anyway....

 

[Scott_DeWitt]

I think a serious con of the Audi's will be the transmissions. You're really not going to be able to find anything in the US that is longitudinal AWD with the correct TDI ratios which is going to compromise some of the cost advantage....probably to the tune of $2-3k. What kind of prices are you looking for with each of theses cars?

Your correct although supply isn't an issue but cost certainly will be. I have those transmissions in stock and can configure them in any number of ways.
http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?products_id=108&osCsid=cdf4b3999398027bad9c63cab88aa70e

However cost for a MKIV allwheel drive setup will far exceed the cost of the audi quattro.

 

[lagomorph]

got a response from the dept. of ecology.

Jeff
There should not be any problem getting any one of possible conversions to pass the emission test.
I can help you. Is this there a telephone number where I can reach you at during the day?
John Raymond

summary of our conversation-
in WA, diesels are not required to pass an OBD port test, but due to the lack of specialized training of technicians, they commonly port-test OBD equipped diesels. There is a push to move to a OBD test instead of a opacity/gas cap test like they do now. 2009 cars are exempt from emissions testing.
And a new car is exempt for 5 years from date of original purchase. So, 2006 rabbit won't need test until 2011. Etc. 2004 Audi-no test til 2009.
If I do a b5, I'll still have to be in the test-zone, but can test as a diesel jetta, etc...but that does not help my decision any...

 

[TDIsyncro]

Have you read through my thread? It would give you an idea of what is involved with using an Audi A4 or A6 sedan or Avant. It would also give you an idea on the costs involved. Car purchase plus 10-12K in most cases. There is a few Passat 4-Motion conversions floating around. I think the builders pretty much imported a full car for transfering pretty much everthing over. I am sure you would be looking at the same costs scenarios wether it be Passat or Audi.
The Audi Quattro drive train is very robust, yet simple. There are no electronics on it to worry about (on the manual).

 

[lagomorph]

I did read through your thread. You've got a very nicely done swap.
I hope I can make mine go as smoothly, even if it's going to be stock right off the bat for a while.
I think with the stock engine, a 5 speed, and stock parts, I can keep the costs down a bit. Labor is all me. I don't expect to spend 10k on a swap, I know it can be done right and cheaper if I don't upgrade right off the bat.
my last two conversions have been less than 10k. Combined.
I know I'll be able to recoup the costs on selling some of the gas components when I'm ready to swap, which will help a bunch.
I think I'm going to commit to finding a white B6 avant for my 'victim'. The electronics should be a similar process to the Mk4 conversion, with perhaps a few changes.
I'm trying to get the e28 M5 sold, to free up some capital to source an inexpensive b6. Use some from the sale to down payment on the car, and some to set aside for when the jetta is sold, both combined should give me a good portion of the necessary funds to acquire a conversion from Scott. That plus selling the old drivetrain not needed will get me right about where I need to be.

 

[TDIsyncro]

I know you can pinch pennies here and there and get some money back on sale of gasser parts, I just hate to send a guy into a project like this with a low estimate. I like to estimate high and go from there because there always seems to be things that throw the budget out in the end. In my case, I had injectors to replace, however, the costs with debugging it and testing and replacing a bunch of other cheaper stuff first..really added up to a pile of money.
Scott will help you with getting the right set-up, just check with him on diff ratio/tranny diff ratio crossovers before you buy something to make sure you can get an economical tranny to match up.
I was talking to a guy in BC a few months back that was getting into an A4Q swap and was going to split the gasser tranny and install a 3rd gear set in the 5th gear position, but flip them on the shafts to get a lower OD than the factory 5th. It was an intersting idea and had some merit. I am not sure if the gear spread would be that desirable though.
Look forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

[lagomorph]

well, this project is going to be on hold for a while, I got laid off today.
lets talk about the parts we'll need to make this conversion a reality.
I assume a passat engine and harness will be the best donor?

 

[vwmikel]

well, this project is going to be on hold for a while, I got laid off today.

Damn, that really suck Jeff. I hope you find something soon!

 

[lagomorph]

yeah. Me too, but I have low hopes right now of job-dom.
Gonna start cranking out the resumes, but not many jobs are available. Esp. when I hate the career field I'm in. RV's suck. And the owners of the companies are worse than the product.
Did get a call about a potential swap available from a mk4, for a very good price. We'll see what happens-if the M5 sells, I may pick it up and sit on the rest of the dineros for a while....

 

[vwmikel]

yeah. Me too, but I have low hopes right now of job-dom.
Gonna start cranking out the resumes, but not many jobs are available. Esp. when I hate the career field I'm in. RV's suck. And the owners of the companies are worse than the product.
Did get a call about a potential swap available from a mk4, for a very good price. We'll see what happens-if the M5 sells, I may pick it up and sit on the rest of the dineros for a while....

I haven't really talked to you in a while so I'm not even sure what RV related stuff you were doing....Last I talked to you, you worked for that printer cartridge place. That was a while ago

 

[lagomorph]

I've been working as a service manager for a while.
First-at small car.
Then got roped into the RV industry, and have worked at a few places. I think I'm going to try and be done with RV's. But, jobs are hard to find.

 

[greengeeker]

You're not tied to monaco are you? Sorry to hear about the layoff...we just went through some a significant one as well - also tied to the RV industry.

Regardless, I'm subscribed to this thread as I've seen your past swaps. Good luck.

 

[lagomorph]

yeah...sort of .
Monaco was one of our brands. Did they fold? must have been some really recent news-as their parts and warranty website was working on thursday..

Seems to me I'm leaning back towards a b5 again. Good grief I'm wishy-washy.
B6 / B5 / b6/ b5/ mk2 coupe /b5/etc....

 

[greengeeker]

All I know is we stopped shipment of product due to them not paying their previous bills.

Shame too as they were one of the bigger diesel RV customers.

 

[lagomorph]

lol... talked to one of my monaco parts guys. they're about done.....I got brought back on at work, albeit with a sizeable salary reduction. We'll see how long it lasts, but it gives me time to look for a replacement job w/o the headache of unenployment. (and more money)

anyway, the future victim has been located, a 2001 casablanca white B5 1.8t 5 speed wagon. homelink, cold weather package, convenience package, sport suspension, etc..
I'm arranging delivery of said vehicle, and hope to start driving it soon, still have to wait for 2 cars to clear out for the capital to be freed up for the conversion, and the parts I'll need to make it suitable,
A8 brakes
Koni coilovers-only option, IMO
some kind of upgraded wheels,
maybe front mount intercooler (but it draws unneeded attention, and can always be added later- the 1.8t comes with one already, so that saves a little money upfront.)
rs4 grille, hatch spoiler
injector nozzles, chip
skidplate
drivetrain stabilizers
roof rack adapters for my bike mounts
some kind of exhaust system.
pioneer avic/oem nav unit
some extra sound deadening
small sub built in to the side panel in the hatch area. My small basslink has worked awesome, but I'd like a cleaner hatch area, and the basslink can get used in the vanagon.

I should be able to sell the 1.8t (factory replaced 60k ago) and the 5 speed to recover a portion of the swap costs as well. Just gotta be patient at this point, and see when my funds become available for purchasing fun stuff.

Still have to decide 2.0 passat or 1.9 tdi as well. Was considering a v6 tdi, but now that I have the 4 cyl, it's a little easier decision. Plus, 4 cyl. parts are easier to get stateside, and the swap will be a little less expensive that way.

 

[Scott_DeWitt]

lol... talked to one of my monaco parts guys. they're about done.....I got brought back on at work, albeit with a sizeable salary reduction. We'll see how long it lasts, but it gives me time to look for a replacement job w/o the headache of unenployment. (and more money)

anyway, the future victim has been located, a 2001 casablanca white B5 1.8t 5 speed wagon. homelink, cold weather package, convenience package, sport suspension, etc..
I'm arranging delivery of said vehicle, and hope to start driving it soon, still have to wait for 2 cars to clear out for the capital to be freed up for the conversion, and the parts I'll need to make it suitable,
A8 brakes
Koni coilovers-only option, IMO
some kind of upgraded wheels,
maybe front mount intercooler (but it draws unneeded attention, and can always be added later- the 1.8t comes with one already, so that saves a little money upfront.)
rs4 grille, hatch spoiler
injector nozzles, chip
skidplate
drivetrain stabilizers
roof rack adapters for my bike mounts
some kind of exhaust system.
pioneer avic/oem nav unit
some extra sound deadening
small sub built in to the side panel in the hatch area. My small basslink has worked awesome, but I'd like a cleaner hatch area, and the basslink can get used in the vanagon.

I should be able to sell the 1.8t (factory replaced 60k ago) and the 5 speed to recover a portion of the swap costs as well. Just gotta be patient at this point, and see when my funds become available for purchasing fun stuff.

Still have to decide 2.0 passat or 1.9 tdi as well. Was considering a v6 tdi, but now that I have the 4 cyl, it's a little easier decision. Plus, 4 cyl. parts are easier to get stateside, and the swap will be a little less expensive that way.

That's great some money coming in the door is better than no money coming in.

I'd shy away from the US spec passat engine mainly due to the balance shaft module problems.

The European 1.9 pd engines produce a few hp less with fewer issues.

 

[lagomorph]

I'm going to bring this back up. I was going to sell my B5, and try for a MK6. Not gonna happen on the peanuts salary, so I'm going to build the B5. I can do that with other cars being sold.
How hard is it going to be to get the 1.9 wired up in the car?
I know scott can get the transmissions, so I'm good there, but an audi a4 harness is going to be tough to get..

 

[vwmikel]

I'm going to bring this back up. I was going to sell my B5, and try for a MK6. Not gonna happen on the peanuts salary, so I'm going to build the B5. I can do that with other cars being sold.
How hard is it going to be to get the 1.9 wired up in the car?
I know scott can get the transmissions, so I'm good there, but an audi a4 harness is going to be tough to get..

Have you settled on which engine you're looking for? If you're okay with splicing a bunch of stuff I'm sure you could make any other harness work. It's going to be tough to get an uncut wiring harness out of Europe. Normally you're lucky if they even unplug it from the ECU rather than cutting through the harness.

 

[lagomorph]

I think it's going to be a 1.9, I don't think the v6 is an affordable option for long term. Plus, I already have a 4 cyl. A 2.0 would be a nice compromise, but not sure if the newer jetta motors will be wiring compatible, with all the extra IMMO stuff.

 

[vwmikel]

I think it's going to be a 1.9, I don't think the v6 is an affordable option for long term. Plus, I already have a 4 cyl. A 2.0 would be a nice compromise, but not sure if the newer jetta motors will be wiring compatible, with all the extra IMMO stuff.

So, are you thinking of like an ALH or a PD? The new CR engines would probably break the budget and cause a lot of headaches. I know that swapping one of those could be done, but it's a little early. We usually need a little time to circumvent the road blocks.

 

[lagomorph]

ALH would be ok, and it's a setup that is easy to obtain. PD would be nice, but I don't know as much about them. My knowledge of the TDIs has slipped a little lately, since I haven't been foraging for parts or conversion knowledge..