B4 Cluster Elmos 10417A Replacement

[G60ING]

I like it but when I get older and my eye sight begins to fail I might not like it as much. In the meantime my eye sight is almost 20/20 and I can see the smallish numbers just fine.

 

[ChubsAuto]

That could be an issue, I also have young eyes so I have no problem reading it but in the future that may change. Unfortunately with the space provided thats the biggest display you can put in there, any bigger and it will hit on the LEDs and stepper motors. Even if I moved it over to the tach face it would have the same issue with space. It took me a bit of looking to find an LCD panel that is thin enough to fit in there. I may be able to change the text to bold or change the style a bit to help with visibility if thats an issue.

 

[G60ING]

Is there any chance that the OEM display could be used? Not complaining as I'd gladly take the small text and just get some glasses or eye surgery.

 

[ChubsAuto]

Im always open to ideas, I dont think it can be used thought. It has set digits and labels that are etched into the glass when the LCD was made. I could probably display boost and EGT on it separately and without any type of labels to tell you what the numbers were. Ill play around with the format of my display a little more, and see if I can find something with a little larger pixels that will still fit in the space required. Its still a prototype so any and all ideas are welcome and I will see what I can do with it.

 

[G60ING]

No matter what this is still a great product that I'm ready to test as soon as you are ready. As for the labels, who needs those. You just need to know that the sweeping 4 digit number is the EGT and the sweeping 2 digit number is boost labels are for the people not in the know. This approach would also allow you to keep costs down, have large numbers and keep the oem look.

On the G60 corrado clusters they took the same approach with the MFA. They had a set of secondary functions that required you to push in the MFA selection button, turn the ignition on and then off and then you could check a series of additional displays. One of them being a boost gauge with no display telling you what the numbers were for and on top of that it required a conversion chart that was different for VDO and motometer clusters.

 

[ChubsAuto]

I wouldnt be able to use the factory display without having a driver chipset just for it, I dont have enough output pins on the microcontroller to drive it. If I have to have add more chips there wont be any cost savings in using the factory lcd. I also dont think it would work out well not having things labeled, it works alright at the moment when you only have boost and egt but in the future when I add more functions you would just have random numbers that you would have no idea what they were. I have found a large letter 16 x 2 lcd, I will have to see if I can squeeze it in there. The larger letter lcd is almost twice as thick, 8.5 mm compared to 14 mm so it may not fit. Honestly in person the digits on the display are almost the same size as the digits on the odometer. I may make up a couple beta test units for people to try out and see what they think. It wouldnt be hard to change to the larger lcd if it fits, the lcd controller chipset is the same either way. I have seen the hidden feature of the G60 cluster, its kinda interesting they had that feature stuck in there. I drove the car about 20 miles today and it seems to work perfectly, so this week Im going to try and get a board designed and hopefully by the weekend be ready to etch it.

Now here is a question I would like everyones opinion on, I plan on adding features later on so this unit will be able to display more data. Im thinking oil temp, oil pressure, outside air temp, clock, possibly fuel millage if I can find the article I read were someone figured out the data output of the ECM. Does anyone else have any data that they would like to be able to read on the display? My other question is how do you want to be able to scroll threw those items. I can either use the MFA switch or my other thought is to make the clock setting pins longer so you can push them without a pointy object. I thought that may be a good option for people not wanting to install the MFA wiper stalk. Give me some input on what you think, Thanks Derek

 

[Windex]

This is way cool.

I like the idea of being able to cycle through with the MFA stalk, only because I have already installed one for my MFA...


That being said, I would honestly want all the above, because I monitor oil and outside temp via the VR6 MFA, oil pressure would be cool.

Other than that, I use the trip distance and time from the MFA. The fuel econ readings are way off, so I don't use them.



As for the display, I would suggest that the boost gauge be a set of vertical lines, scrolling over to the right as boost builds. There are 5 vertical lines per LCD "digit", so I would think that 2 vertical lines per PSI would give a nice 0 - 25psi display across the bottom.

 

[ChubsAuto]

Thats kinda the idea Im getting no one really cares about the fuel millage meter, and I agree thats why I never swapped to a MFA cluster. The MFA switch would probably be easier to interface with just because you have more switches for more functions, just didnt know if people would want to swap stalks if they didnt have one already. I have never had a MFA cluster in my car, what does the trip distance do different then the trip odometer on the standard cluster? On the boost gauge are you talking about doing a bar graph meter ? or am I reading it wrong. Thanks for the feedback, keep em coming

 

[Windex]

I guess the desire to swap would hinge on a couple of things...

1- factory look. I prefer to have something from the factory as opposed to extra buttons tacked on. I like your usage of the existing cluster setting buttons, and the trip reset, but I suspect they would be hard to use while driving.

2- how hard they are to locate and install. Both (from my perspective) are relatively easy. They are plentiful in junkyards, thanks to every VR6 coming with one, and 95-97 all work, even for wagons (with some very minor modification - I'm running a sedan MFA stalk in my wagon right now).

The trip functions in the MFA are 1 - distance since last reset, up to 9999 miles/km - good for long trips or long tanks. Nice to have 4 digits, so trips can be in the 1000's. 2- distance since last key cycle. - also nice to have, so that you have perpetually resetting trip meter (I think it resets at about 15-20 minutes), so you know the distance of that particular trip every time you drive the car.

I do use fuel mileage in my SGII, because I can tune the readings to make them more accurate. The only way to do that with the MFA is to change the IQ, and I'm not willing to do that just for the fuel econ in the MFA.

Yes, horizontally scrolling bar graph. a little easier to see out of the corner of the eye for boost as opposed to a changing set of digits which would require more attention diverted from the road. Ideally the segments above could be calibrated into graduations - like every 5 psi there would be a little tick mark. I would rather see that than the word "boost"

Thanks for your work on this Derek. If you need a Canadian cluster to try this on, let me know. Thought of doing boost in KiloPascals? ;-)

 

[TonyJetta]

Personally, I think the size is right on. Instead of labels above the numbers, how about 4 numbers with an abbreviation? i.e. B: 9 EGT: 900 O:150F etc.

Tony

 

[Digital Corpus]

The *only* reason I haven't sent my cluster in yet is because I haven't taken a week off work since I won't be able to drive it :/. I want a MFA so bad!

 

[passatmrb]

Derek does a good job guys. I sent him my cluster, he received the 21st, I had it back on the 24th. Greatest turn around ever!! Works like promised. Glad I made this connection with Derek.

 

[Glennbo]

I had my second Instrument cluster failure since owning the car (2001) First time around my connections at the dealer was a viable option. Today it is ridiculously expensive and thought I would be driving around with a dead cluster. Thanks to BKmetz, he turned me on to Derek White. After exchanging a few emails with him and seeing pictures of his work station, I had sufficient confidence to send my cluster to him ( I normally do all my own work)

Amazing turn around time and patience with all my questions. Do not hesitate, this is the place to have your cluster repaired. Thanks Derek!!!!!

Sincerely
Glenn Bukac

 

[G60ING]

Derek Thank you for fixing my cluster (I screwed it up...needles on too far[insert banging head on brick wall]) I'm glad this community has a resource like you.

 

[ChubsAuto]

Thank you all for the kind words, I do my best to keep things affordable, have as fast of a turn around time as I can. Figured I would give a little update on some of the things I have collected and built over the time I have been doing this.
Here is a pic of the collection of complete clusters, parts clusters, and parts out of clusters that I have.

Here is a picture of the unit I built to test all the functions of the cluster

This is my test cluster that I socketed the Elmos chip so I can test them before replacing them.

This is a cluster that I removed all the solder mask from the board so I can see were all the traces go, makes tracking down problems much easier

Here is a small portion of the parts I have collected from damaged clusters, and some new parts that I use to repair clusters

Thank you every who has sent me a cluster, I greatly appreciate it

 

[ChubsAuto]

This is also something interesting that has been happening lately. I have gotten 4 clusters in the last couple weeks that looked very much like this one

Before I got these I had never seen one fail this badly. The best I can figure is the power supply caps are shorting out, possibly due to the hot weather, and are actually burning holes clean threw the circuit boards. So if your still running on an original power supply cap, its probably a good idea to change it. Its not a hard or expensive job and will save you from having to buy a parts cluster to fix yours down the road.

 

[Digital Corpus]

Derek,

With the drop of a digital Boost and EGT gauge that NB_TDI was building and the little digital analog (something like a 128x128 LCD with an analog representation displayed on it) that kooyajerms secured from a previous owner, I am partially inspired to build my own with the fully array of boot, IMP, EMP, EGT & oil temp...

I noticed that you are using the GM pressure sensor. I know the TDIs here don't go that much into boost, but did you ever come across the MPXH6400 series sensors? From my research into maybe building my own readouts, it appears that Malone Tuning might be using them in ECUs. Their accuracy is about 5.5 kPa or about .7977 psi. They will go from 3 to 58 psi (absolute) or 20-400 kPa so they would measure up to ~43.3 psi from the turbo. They also cost about 10 bucks each unless you buy lots

Anyhow, in order to convert a stock cluster over to a TDI one with MFA functionality, what do you need? Do you have to have a TDI cluster, or could I send you a gas one and when I get it back, send you my TDI one? The only time I see in my future where I'll be off for about a week is during a holiday and I don't want to do that to you. I also cannot have my daily driver down

 

[ChubsAuto]

I didnt do allot of searching for different pressure sensors when I started this project. I work on lots of GM cars so I had them available so thats what I chose to use. The code I wrote is easily adaptable to any map sensor just have to know what voltage represents what pressure. One of these days I will get that project finished, just havent had time to do much with it. I did manage to give the boost and egt setup a 1000 mile test before I took it off my car. The setup worked flawlessly, Im working on adding other features that people wanted currently.
To do the MFA swap I dont have to have both clusters, I can convert the MFA to TDI spec and ship it back missing the tach face and with the wrong cluster surround on it. Once you get the cluster you can swap the tach face and cluster surround from you TDI cluster and send me the TDI cluster if you want or keep it. I usually return ship for free if I can keep the remains of the TDI cluster. Lately my turn around time has been a little longer then the 1 to 2 days I was doing earlier, things have just been to crazy to get it done in that time frame. Getting the clusters done isnt a problem its finding time to get them shipped off, by the time Im off work the post office is closed. I can usually get them sent off Friday or Saturday at the latest. Hopefully things will calm down a little at work and I can get back to the 1 to 2 days I want. Send me an email or PM when ever you want to get things going. Thanks Derek

 

[psst1997]

Hey Derek, any updates on this project?! You met my brother at a getogether when you had your protoype installed. May also have another MFA conversion for you soon.

 

[h2oskibum]

Are you still doing cluster repairs?

 

[PRA4WX]

Is this dead in the water?

 

[RIP TDI]

Service interruption.

 

[PRA4WX]

Service interruption.

Oh wow! Color me ignorant. Hope the reclamation is going well.

 

[Houpty GT]

Derek, Hope you got the shop back up and running. I referred you some work. How is the special gauge project going?

I have another cluster project someone did that I would like to show you once I can find it.

 

[Digital Corpus]

He's not logged in since February

 

[Houpty GT]

Maybe we should have a GTG at his house and rebuild his shop!

 

[Steve Addy]

bump so I know where this is...

 

[roadrunner89]

Hi Guys
In addition to Derek's information some parts of the Elmos Pinout are known meanwhile

You can find the information in the German Eurovan wiki

I'll try to give a short translation:

The orientation of the pins is not quite usual as you can see in the article (I cannot link the picture)
Depenting on the Elmos version, marking for Pin 1 is either directly above Pin 1 or in the corner between pin 6 and 7

Pin	Connection	comment
1	+5V output (1. regulator)	for controller, display,...
4	Ground
5	Ground
7	Sense	If it drops below 7 volts, Pin 12 and 13 become high
12	Power-Good-Signal
13	Reset-output	Reset of microcontroller
23	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
28	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
33	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
38	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
43	+12v ignition	for 2. regulator
44	+12v steady	for 1. regulator

I will add new information to this article, if there are any news

If you have any suggestions or questions, feel free to contact me

Best regards from northern Germany

Alex

 

[Ianjoh]

Hi Guys
In addition to Derek's information some parts of the Elmos Pinout are known meanwhile

You can find the information in the German Eurovan wiki

I'll try to give a short translation:

The orientation of the pins is not quite usual as you can see in the article (I cannot link the picture)
Depenting on the Elmos version, marking for Pin 1 is either directly above Pin 1 or in the corner between pin 6 and 7

Pin	Connection	comment
1	+5V output (1. regulator)	for controller, display,...
4	Ground
5	Ground
7	Sense	If it drops below 7 volts, Pin 12 and 13 become high
12	Power-Good-Signal
13	Reset-output	Reset of microcontroller
23	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
28	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
33	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
38	+5V Output (2. regulator)	Stepper-motor (?)
43	+12v ignition	for 2. regulator
44	+12v steady	for 1. regulator

I will add new information to this article, if there are any news

If you have any suggestions or questions, feel free to contact me

Best regards from northern Germany

Alex

It has been a while since my last visit here. Getting back into cluster repairs and mods. I have one that does not have the usual fault of corroded tracks caused by the leaky capacitor. Do you have any more info on the pin out of the elmos? I have the 5v out on pin 1 and sometimes the displays work but the Elmos seems to be suspended as there is no activity on the output drive to the transformer. The elmos and caps have been changed by another engineer and I bought it as a spares or repair. Any more info would be great thanks, Ian