B4 Cluster Elmos 10417A Replacement

ChubsAuto

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Mar 10, 2008
Location
Central Illinois
TDI
2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
My cluster was on its way out when I bought the car about a year ago, I replaced the power supply caps in the cluster and it fixed it till last night. Last night it was good and cold, I turned the key on let it glow, all the lights came on, the clock and odometer worked but none of the needles were moving and there was a high pitch noise coming from the cluster. The car started right up as usual but the cluster didnt come alive with it, after running for a bit the tach went clear past 5K rpm and stayed there. I went ahead and drove home and parked it in the garage hoping the the heat would bring it back from the dead, the tach started working again but the rest of them were still dead. The battery is brand new so I check all the grounds but did no good so I took the cluster out and desoldered the power supply cap and checked it, it checked out just fine so no luck there. I had been having problems even once in a while the gauges would not be accurate, after cycling the key off and on they would go back to the proper positions. So it looks like the 10417A stepper motor driver/voltage regulator chip has gone bad. I have a 4 cylinder gasser B4 cluster on the way to use for parts, I will finish up this post when I get it and finish up fixing my cluster.

Here is the tdi cluster after taking everything off the board
In order to remove the white plastic housing from the circuit board all the LED's and both LCD's must be unsoldered and removed (be extremely careful with the LCD's the glass is very easy to break)


This is the circuit board after everything is removed



Location of the 10417A after removal



The cause of all the problems the Elmos 10417A



Tools needed for the job

desoldering pumps, forceps, tweezers, screw driver



Soldering station



Hot air rework station (the key to removing the chip without damage)



My workbench



More to come when i get the parts cluster, I will do disassembly in more detail and reassembly
 
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ChubsAuto

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Central Illinois
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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Thanks, its taken me a while to get all the equipment I have together but I just about have everything I need. Hopefully the parts cluster will be here early next week, kinda a pain driving without a cluster. Ill get this process finished up and documented as fast as I can, if nothing else it will give people an idea of whats involved in repairing and where components are located in there cluster.
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Shoot, with all that equipment, everyone should go to you to have their cluster's redone.

I can't see many people having your setup =)


P.S. You're right about driving without a cluster, not fun.
 

starrd

Veteran Member
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Nov 24, 2003
Location
Canada
TDI
1996 Passat
dewhite2485@hotmail.com said:
I replaced the power supply caps in the cluster
Can you outline the power supply capacitors you replaced? Were they the 2 near the Elmos chip?
 

ChubsAuto

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Central Illinois
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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Sure thing, the 470 uF cap in the upper right hand corner of the picture is the main power supply cap. Mine would have a slightly low reading when at room temp but if you got it cold the uF would fall off until it was way out of spec. The other 220 uF cap that is right below the 10417A, it tested low at room temp so Im sure it would fail when cold. There are a few other small caps on the board that Im not sure what they do but they dont seem to affect the main power supply.
 

ChubsAuto

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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Once I get this cluster done and everything goes well I would be willing to do repairs on other peoples clusters. I just want to make sure everything works out well on my own stuff first.
 

ChubsAuto

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Central Illinois
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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Well got the used cluster today, got all the chip switched over no problem and now I have a working TDI cluster once again.
Here is the used cluster before the tear down began

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00127.jpg?t=1262745664

First step is to remove the 2 screws at the top of the cluster they are Torx #10's

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00128.jpg?t=1262745637

Next you need to remove the clear plastic lens by releasing the 4 white plastic tabs on the bottom of the cluster and pulling the lens off

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00129.jpg?t=1262745599

After removing the clear lens you need to remove the black plastic housing by releasing the 2 black plastic tabs one on each end of the cluster and pulling the housing up.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00130.jpg?t=1262745550

Once the black hosing is off it will look something like this

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00131.jpg?t=1262745513

Now its time to remove the needles, before taking them off note there locations so you can put them back on in the same place. The best way I have found to remove the needles is to rotate them backwards against there stops while gently pulling up. You also can remove at this point the plastic buttons for the clock adjusting in the lower left hand corner.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00132.jpg?t=1262745483

Next remove the metal face pieces from the cluster, now your down to the circuit board.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00133.jpg?t=1262745456

Its now time to remove the circuit board from the plastic cluster housing, first remove the 2 Torx #10 screws from the upper left hand corner of the board. Next you need to pull up on the board while releasing the 7 plastic ears one at a time.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00138.jpg?t=1262745392

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00139.jpg?t=1262745416

The circuit board is now out of the cluster and ready to disassemble
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00142.jpg?t=1262745354

Now you need to unsolder the LED's and LCD's from the circuit board, be very very careful to not break the glass on the LCD's

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00151.jpg?t=1262745326

Next you need to remove the white plastic bezel from the circuit board, its held on by 10 plastic ears similar to the ones that held the board into the housing.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00153.jpg?t=1262745297

Here is the bare circuit board after everything is removed

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00154.jpg?t=1262745268

Here is the second hardest part of the whole process, removing the 10417A without damaging it or the circuit board

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00156.jpg?t=1262745238

Now its time to switch boards and reinstall the 10417A onto the TDI cluster, this is by far the hardest part. Everything must be aligned properly and soldered on properly without any solder bridges or poor connections. After installing test and look very carefully to make sure everything is ok before continuing

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00167.jpg?t=1262745203

I use a very small tip soldering iron and .015 in dia. solder to stick the chip down, then with the hot air rework station I get the chip all the way down flush with the board and straight before finishing up with the iron and small diameter solder.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00168.jpg?t=1262745161

Time to reinstall the white plastic bezel and led's, the bent leg for the bottom row goes towards the fuel and temp gauges, the turn signal led's bent leg go up.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00169.jpg?t=1262745130

Now the LCD's, now the board is ready to go back in the housing.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00170.jpg?t=1262745108

Reverse the disassembly procedure taking care to properly align the needles and not forgetting to put the plastic buttons in for the clock setting switches and the trip odometer reset. Now you have a fully repaired and reassembled TDI cluster.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00171.jpg?t=1262745066

Here is the cluster stuck back in the car back up and running

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00173.jpg?t=1262744985

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00173.jpg?t=1262744900

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/dewhite2485/Cluster Repair/DSC00174.jpg?t=1262744847
 
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P2B

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
TDI
2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
Nice job!

I envy your hot air rework station - I make do with Chip Quik and stainless steel matrix bands (from the dental supply) :eek:

What is the pin pitch on that chip?

Simon
 

ChubsAuto

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Central Illinois
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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Im not sure what the pitch on the pins is, its not to fine as far as surface mount stuff goes. If your doing a bit of surface mount stuff or want to get into more of it that hot air rework station I have isnt all that expensive and well worth the money
 

dieseljunkie

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Location
New England USA
TDI
96 Passat TDI wagon
Hey nice work there! To prevent the cluster from frying itself again (from low battery voltage), has anyone installed a small rechargeable back-up 12V battery in the cluster?
 

ChubsAuto

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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Im in the process of looking into a DC to DC step up converter that could take anything from 5 volts up and turn it into a very clean 12 to 14 volts. I need to figure out the current draw of the cluster and then go from there.
 

dieseljunkie

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Dec 29, 2006
Location
New England USA
TDI
96 Passat TDI wagon
A DC-DC converter is a good idea! A little more high techy than a BUB. From memory, cluster idle current is less than 10 ma. I'd be curious what you measure. I had a little problem with my cluster (from a VR6) last week. After not being driven for 4 days, the clock reset itself and my trip odometer reset button stopped working, everything else seems to be ok, for now anyway. I really want to add low voltage protection for the cluster.
 
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ChubsAuto

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Central Illinois
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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
I have found a couple prebuilt DC to DC converters that may work, the first one i found will handle .5 amps

http://www.hvwtech.com/products_vie...uct+Search&utm_campaign=Product+Search+(Jan10)

I also found a larger one that will take up to 3 amps

http://www.virtualvillage.com/12v-to-24v-dc-dc-power-converter-module-003602-013.html

Either one should be very easy wire up, I havent had time to yet but I need to look at some wiring diagrams and see how many power feeds there are to the cluster. I would assume there are 2,one constant and one switched, should be really easy to wire up 2 of the converters in the power lines to prevent future damage to your clusters. The other idea I had was to build a circuit that would disconnect the power from the cluster if it dropped below or above a set voltage.
 
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GoFaster

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Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Wow ... I'm blown away.

As the former owner of one of these cars, the fragile nature of the clusters frustrated me twice, but I've got zero knowledge of component level electronics. In my case, the failure was the other common one, complete loss of all LCD displays and no speedo and no tach. Do you know how to fix that?

The second time mine failed, the shop that repaired it said that they had fixed the underlying problem and it wouldn't happen again, but I have no idea what they did (nor who the shop was - I know the dealer sent the cluster out for repair, but I don't know to whom)
 

TonyJetta

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Either of the 2 DC-DC converters listed are more applicable to hobbyists. These circuits are not really applicable to a high reliability circuit like an instrument cluster that needs to be powered for hours on end, in a 100F environment. I'm not talking about a mil-spec circuit; an automotive circuit, suitable for the environment.

Tony
 

ChubsAuto

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I would guess since the tach and speedo were not working that part of the stepper motor driver had gone out, as for the lcd's probably a power supply issue. Both of those problems could be due to the 10417A going bad. Now as for fixing the problem so it wouldnt happen again I have no idea. I did notice the chip I took out of the gasser cluster looked slightly different so maybe they had a redesign on the chip ?
 

ChubsAuto

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Those were just a few I found doing a fast search, but I agree hard to say how they would hold up in high heat and constant load. Best bet would probably be to design and build a circuit using automotive grade components. Im going to play around with the idea and see what I can come up with.
 
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ChubsAuto

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Looks like the base chip for the 3 amp dc to dc converter the LM2577 is up to the task as far as temp range goes -40 to 125 C. Ill have to do some more reading to see if it can be used with a 100% duty cycle output or not.
 
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ChubsAuto

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2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Unfortunately I havent been able to find anything on the Elmos chip, its a custom IC. The cluster all the info I have been able to find is wiring diagrams and a few articles people have made about repairing or modifying things in the cluster.
 

dieseljunkie

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Dec 29, 2006
Location
New England USA
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96 Passat TDI wagon
With the tiny amount of idle current needed for the cluster, I am going to put a small 12 V lithium rechargeable battery on the constant power pin of the cluster, put an isolation diode between that pin and the car battery. The diode allows the lithium battery to be charged when the engine is running, and isolates the lithium battery from driving any circuit except the cluster when engine is off. Do you see any issues with that?
 

ChubsAuto

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I dont know how the lithium ion battery is going to take being charged that way, you may want to do a some research on that first. Otherwise sounds like it should work to me, a small sealed gel cell battery may hold up better without any complicated charging system.
 

dieseljunkie

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96 Passat TDI wagon
I know I can leave my phone with it's lithium ion battery on the charger all day w/o problems. I have 3 good but used spare phone batteries a Sprint tech gave me and I'm sure I can get more. They are 3.7 V 1800 ma ea. If I put 3 in series I have 11.1 V. A little low but for cluster backup probably ok. If I can tweek a car cell phone charger to 14 V instead of it's normal 5 v I have a charger for the backup battery.
 

TonyJetta

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dieseljunkie said:
I know I can leave my phone with it's lithium ion battery on the charger all day w/o problems.
Yes, but internal to the phone there is a charging circuit for the LiIon battery.

IF you hook it up like you are suggesting, you will likely blow up the battery & make a huge mess.

Best off with a 12V gel cell; they will work better the way you are suggesting.

Tony
 

dieseljunkie

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Lithium ion battery is used in lots of appliances, power tools, cameras. It should not be difficult to come up with a charging circuit. I like Lithium ion because 1) I have the batteries already and they are free. 2) They have high power density for its size.I will mount them in a small metal box and put it under the dash so any leaks or blow up won't make a mess. I'll do some research on proper Lithium ion battery charging techniques.
 

Digital Corpus

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Tony is right. Similar to NiMH, you cannot apply strait current to Lithium batteries. You need a charging circuit to pulse and control the voltages and current applied. Especially when you get to about 80-85% capacity, you almost have to trickle charge them. If you don't do this, you risk rupturing the battery and possibly a fire. Lithium batteries burn nice and hot too.
 

dieseljunkie

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Digital Corpus said:
Tony is right. Similar to NiMH, you cannot apply strait current to Lithium batteries. You need a charging circuit to pulse and control the voltages and current applied. Especially when you get to about 80-85% capacity, you almost have to trickle charge them. If you don't do this, you risk rupturing the battery and possibly a fire. Lithium batteries burn nice and hot too.
Did I say I was going to apply straight current to the Lithium batteries? ;) Nooooooo! :rolleyes:
Anyway, sorry I hijacked this thread. I will start another thread when I have the cluster battery backup working with the Lithium ion battery.
 

ChubsAuto

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Well I gave the cluster a road test and a very cold start test this weekend and it works like a champ so Im up for repairing other clusters if anyone wants. I also got a MFA cluster to play around with, Im working on building a cluster tester that will put the gauges threw there ranges and test all the lights. So far I have the tach figured out and know how to drive the speedo but havent had time to figure out the frequency of the square wave I need to send it to run the needle full scale. Just to make sure the info I have so far is good the fuel sending unit has 60 ohm empty and 190 ohm full, and the coolant temp sensor is 1.68 K at 68 C and 394 ohm at 190 C. If those arnt correct please let me know.
 

kooyajerms

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Pomona, Southern California
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97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Pm sent for either a fix on my stock unit or an updated mfa cluster so I have a higher tach :)
 
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