B100 in Rod's 2009 Jetta

[cbass94]

Glad to hear it started up Rod. Fingers crossed for you!

 

[oldpoopie]

gelled up I bet

 

[cbass94]

Yep, that's what it sounds like.

 

[rodneyh1]

Polaris Oil Analysis

Got back my oil analysis from Polaris. Recall that this is from the same sample drawn and submitted to Blackstone a while back. It is essentially the same in its findings. Metal counts are very similar. Fuel dilution came in at 1.5% (Blackstone result was 2.5%). Not as bad as I imagined, but pretty bad. I certainly wouldn't want to run for long at that level, knowing what it does to viscosity. I don't have the data in front of me, but I think 2% dilution drops the viscosity by a full grade. That's fairly consistent with the viscosity degradation both analysis showed.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/RODNEY_HILL-S317156-Sev4.pdf

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/Blackstone_Oil_Analysis.pdf

I am still planning on switching back to BD when I get to 10K. I'm at 7,900 miles right now, so it'll be about a month before I switch. I may modify my testing a bit due to the cold weather. I won't be able to run B99 on all tanks, so I'll probably settle on something lower (B50-B75) so I can be consistent thru the test.

 

[Harvieux]

Rod, how much time was there between when you physically pulled the oil sample and when the lab actually recieved the sample for testing? Later!

 

[rodneyh1]

Rod, how much time was there between when you physically pulled the oil sample and when the lab actually recieved the sample for testing? Later!

I pulled the 24 oz on 10/23. I sent a sample to Blackstone that same day, and they completed their analysis on 11/3 (link provided in previous post). The remaining oil was in a sealed mason jar in my basement. I sent a sample from the jar to Polaris on around 12/1. They completed their 1st analysis on 12/10. They completed their 2nd analysis (link provided in previous post) which included the dilution on 12/18.

 

[Harvieux]

I pulled the 24 oz on 10/23. I sent a sample to Blackstone that same day, and they completed their analysis on 11/3 (link provided in previous post). The remaining oil was in a sealed mason jar in my basement. I sent a sample from the jar to Polaris on around 12/1. They completed their 1st analysis on 12/10. They completed their 2nd analysis (link provided in previous post) which included the dilution on 12/18.

May I respectfully suggest that you consult with Polaris regarding length of time between UO draw and actual testing? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that it is imperative to submit for testing ASAP in order to prevent false negative results.

I see that the actual Polaris test took place after nearly 2 months of when sample was drawn. It may or may not have any effect on actual test results but, with such a critical issue, I think it would be wise to consult. Later!

 

[mdl3r1]

So, Rod, when you do switch back to BD, how often do you figure you will go between oil changes and UOA? Did you say before you'd go 1K and see how each K of miles goes?

 

[rodneyh1]

Thought I'd put up another mileage update. I currently have about 8,500 miles and I'm using all ULSD for now. As mentioned previously, I'll run this thru 10K and switch back to B??.

1. 09/02/08 657 miles 17.0 gal* 38.6 mpg ULSD
2. 09/16/08 510 miles 14.8 gal* 34.5 mpg B99
3. 09/22/08 442 miles 12.2 gal 36.2 mpg B99
4. 09/29/08 510 miles 13.7 gal 37.2 mpg B99
5. 10/04/08 470 miles 13.0 gal 36.2 mpg B99
6. 10/11/08 465 miles 13.0 gal 35.8 mpg B99
7. 10/19/08 488 miles 13.5 gal 36.1 mpg B99
8. 10/23/08 505 miles 13.7 gal 36.9 mpg B99
9. 10/31/08 484 miles 12.2 gal 39.7 mpg ULSD
10. 11/05/08 545 miles 13.2 gal 41.3 mpg ULSD
11. 11/13/08 506 miles 13.2 gal 38.3 mpg ULSD
12. 11/21/08 541 miles 13.2 gal 41.1 mpg ULSD
13. 12/05/08 532 miles 13.6 gal 39.1 mpg ULSD
14. 12/12/08 520 miles 13.4 gal 38.8 mpg ULSD
15. 12/24/08 483 miles 13.1 gal 36.8 mpg ULSD
16. 12/30/08 504 miles 12.9 gal 39.0 mpg ULSD

My mileage using B99 has been 36.1 mpg, which is based on 7 full tanks of fuel. My mileage using ULSD has been 39.2 mpg, which is based on 9 full tanks of fuel. While I plan on tracking my mileage indefinitely, there are a couple of conclusions to be drawn from the data thus far.

1. The B99 has reduced mileage by 7.8%. I believe this is in the ballpark of the expected mileage hit.
2. At 39.2 mpg (on ULSD), I'm hitting just above the EPA estimates. My driving is approximately 75% highway. With this driving pattern, the EPA estimate of 30/41 comes out to a combined expected mileage of 38.3. No complaints, but with all of the hype I expected better.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

At 39.2 mpg (on ULSD), I'm hitting just above the EPA estimates. My driving is approximately 75% highway. With this driving pattern, the EPA estimate of 30/41 comes out to a combined expected mileage of 38.3. No complaints, but with all of the hype I expected better.

Didn't everyone. I'm betting you'll break into the low 40s with ULSD after 50-60K or so.

 

[kcfoxie]

Look at it this way, you're seeing better numbers than many 06 owners did in the same time frame. It should only go up from here.

 

[rodneyh1]

Didn't everyone. I'm betting you'll break into the low 40s with ULSD after 50-60K or so.

On the EPA site, they have a section for people to put in their actual mileage. Thus far, 40 people have put in data for the '09 tdi, and the average fuel economy is 39.8 mpg. For the '06, the average fuel economy is 42.0 mpg, with a much bigger sample. If the "break-in myth" is true, we should get up to comparable economy. On that note - How well documented is this idea that economy increases with mileage?

 

[kcfoxie]

talk to someone whose owned one for 40 to 50k miles....

search the forums here for economy threads.

 

[rosycrown]

I just completely lost interest. I average 38mpg on B100-B99.99 in my 2004. I was expecting better mpg in the 2009. What the point of getting the new one?

 

[kcfoxie]

I just completely lost interest. I average 38mpg on B100-B99.99 in my 2004. I was expecting better mpg in the 2009. What the point of getting the new one?

performance, roomier, better handling, safer, sootless bumpers, six speed manual transmission ... to name a few points.

 

[rodneyh1]

Finally passed the 10K mark. I'm getting my oil changed today at the dealer, and I'll pull my sample for Blackstone at that time. Next stop after that is to fill up with B50*. I'll continue to run B50 for 10K if possible. The actual length that I run will be determined by the oil analysis that I'll do every 2K miles this time around.

*It gets down to 25-30 here many evenings. Rather than dealing with additives or mixing my own fuel (to get around B75), this will be much simpler and eliminates possible screw-ups on my part. Additionally, based on my initial experience running B99 for 4K miles, I doubt I'd have great success (in terms of required oil change interval) at higher concentrations.

 

[TDICADDGUY]

just make sure they use the correct oil...

 

[rodneyh1]

Have to put my switch to B50 on hold for a bit. I've been overseas, and won't be back long term for another few weeks. Just don't trust the B50 enough to have my wife run it while I'm away.

Still committed to finding an acceptable high % BD blend that is acceptable.

Oil analysis from 6K on ULSD came back with no issues. I'll post it when I get a chance.

 

[gary 32]

I made this post on Sprinter Forum, (when I owned 1), diesel was hovering around $5.00/gal and everyone was looking for a effective cost alternative. A Sprinter has a Mercedes 3.0 liter v6 crd. Many crd owners venturing into bio diesel use experience glycerine clogged fuel systems from poorly manufactured fuel.
I admire the effort and cause of both bio diesel and the resulting threads on this forum. However, I will not run even B5 in my 09 JSW. Reason 1 cost; bio diesel is almost $3.00/gal, I just bought ulsf for under $2.00 in Los Angeles. Reason 2 a 10% mpg loss under load, (with B99). Reason 3 fuel system issues from contamination due to spotty fuel quality.
I would support an alternative fuel source but our newer machines do not leave the factory capable of dealing with bio diesel. Count me in when the biodiesel industry produces a cost effective product with stringent fuel standards and car manufactuers are able to support this fuel.

Re: DIESEL $4.53 Yikes...
I promised myself that when biodiesel (B99) became the same price as regular diesel I would run B99. My carefull B99 biodiesel observations, slighter slower starting, slightly rougher idle, same coolant temps, slightly smoother acceleration, 10-20% less miles per gallon. On B99, 15-19 mpg depending on speeds and traffic conditions. This Sprinter regularly gets 15-23 mpg on regular diesel at the same speeds and in the same traffic conditions. This Sprinter gets 18-23 mpg, open highway 65-80 mph on regular diesel and 15-19 mpg in stop and go city driving. City mileage dropped less than highway milage.
The prices in Los Angeles are within pennies of each other and there are (2) convienent stations that sell B99.
My conclusion, I will stick with regular diesel and consider mixing in 5-10% biodiesel in my own Sprinter until Mercedes blesses the use of biodiesel.

 

[Fourdiesel]

Here is a good technical reference. Many papers re bio ______ (you fill in the blanks). It happens to be Mercedes info but is IS relevant to any common rail engine such as your 09 Jetta TDI. http://bevo.daimler.com/bevolistenm...=1&PHPSESSID=d7b6c364c64e5fa587b83a926a5b3dfd
Hope it is useful. The Mercedes engineers usually state WHY they make the recommendations they do. That is what makes it credible.

 

[Mike_M]

Hey Rodney, whatever happened with the biodiesel experiment? Did you ever switch back to B99/100? Did the 10K oil analysis ever come back, and what did it say?

I'm very interested to find out.

 

[rodneyh1]

10K OA came back OK. Recall that up to about 4K I ran B100 and had some level of fuel dilution. 4K - 10K I ran ULSD. Was planning on running B50 up to about 15K, but went overseas after just 1 tank and had to postpone the experiment.

Funny thing happened while I was in Malaysia. I got new religion with regard to my use of biodiesel. They've been pushing real hard there for energy independence by making BD from palm oil. They're the world's biggest producer, and combined with Indonesia grow essentially all the world's supply. The problem is that they have literally decimated the jungle there as a result. Mainland Malaysia is palm plantations virtually everywhere, and Malaysian Borneo is not far behind. Anywhere flat they farm. Dislocated elephants that roam back into the plantations to eat the palm nuts get shot or poisoned. inhttp://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/SE%2BAsia/Story/STIStory_386010.html

I simply can't justify any use of BD at this point after what I saw. I realize our BD comes from other sources, but there is an effect if worldwide demand grows.

I'm sure this will provoke many BD supporters who can make many arguments in its favor. Until we can make BD in a more sustainable manner, I will no longer be among them.

Mine is running just fine on ULSD and getting almost 40 mpg. Just by driving it, I feel I'm helping as much as I can at this point.

 

[Stevestyle67]

Rodney, this is EXACTLY why i stopped using using BD! We're setting a very dangerous example throughout the world. It's very much a trap between a rock and a hard place (BD vs. petroleum : Physical Environmental Destruction vs. Air Pollution and Global Warming), but we have to make the best choices for ourselves.

 

[UFO]

Rodney, this is EXACTLY why i stopped using using BD! We're setting a very dangerous example throughout the world. It's very much a trap between a rock and a hard place (BD vs. petroleum : Physical Environmental Destruction vs. Air Pollution and Global Warming), but we have to make the best choices for ourselves.

Make sure the biodiesel you use is sustainable. If you write it off because some isn't you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[lyrrad]

Good point, UFO. For example, the B100 I'm running is made from recycled fryer grease gathered locally in Atlanta and sold in Atlanta. Very sustainable and runs great!

 

[Dieselfitter]

Grow hemp for Bio-Diesel!

All of the marginal land in Canada and USA should be put to use growing hemp.

I don't like this destruction of jungles and rainforests to make palm oil.

gallons/acre is quite high for hemp.

 

[BioDiesel]

"Biodiesel blends have two characteristics that may reduce exhaust temperatures. First, the higher cetane will lower EGTs because more of the combustion event will take place in the cylinder before the exhaust valves start to open. Second, the moisture content of biodiesel may lower EGTs. These two items in combination may cause regen to happen more frequently, again, depending on how the car is driven."

The Cummins report posted here a couple years ago indicated bd had a lower 'balance point' in the DPF. It coould be driven with a longer, with a lower load than LSD before plugging the DPF. I don't think it was related to EGT. Just less soot or finer soot.

 

[ikendu]

Malaysia... literally decimated the jungle...

I simply can't justify any use of BD at this point after what I saw. I realize our BD comes from other sources, but there is an effect if worldwide demand grows.

I'm sure this will provoke many BD supporters who can make many arguments in its favor. Until we can make BD in a more sustainable manner, I will no longer be among them.

I can see why you might feel this way. As long as we are dependent on vast quantities of liquid fuels, we will be between the rock and a hard place. You should read the stories about horrible pollution in the aftermath of petroleum extraction in South America or Nigeria or... lots of places (especially in places where local laws are nonexistent or the officials can be bought off). Think about exchanging Canadian boreal forests for deep pit mines and polluted toxic holding ponds after extracting Tar Sand oil with hot water heated with natural gas. Think of our various wars we fight to ensure the continued flow of oil or to keep it out of the hands of various dictators (remember Pearl Harbor? ...that happened after the U.S. called an oil embargo on Japan. We were strangling them for lack of oil.).

Another thing to consider. long before biodiesel became big news, we (human society) were destroying jungles and rainforest to grow palm plantations for food and cosmetics. Giving up donuts? Going to stop using shampoo? Start taking a look at the ingredients on the food you consume. Yup. You'll find palm oil there.

Having said that, I'm not in favor of deforesting Indonesia for more biodiesel. Since my biodiesel is 100% soy beans grown right here in Iowa, I'm not too worried about deforesting other parts of the world for my "alternative to the devil's tea" fuel.

Long term? I figure our future is mostly about electric drive. We might use our limited stock of biofuels for 18-wheelers or airplanes but most of us will be using electric drive for the bulk of our driving.

 

[40X40]

http://abc.go.com/primetime/thegoodefamily/index

Bill

 

[Mike_M]

Well, I'm disappointed in your decision, Rodney, but I'm not going to knock it...you're doing what you feel is right. I disagree with it, but I'm not going to politicize the thread further by arguing my point of view here, but will be glad to in private if anyone's interesting in continuing the discussion.

We already seem to spawn enough politics and arguing whenever the reasons for using or not using biodiesel are mentioned.

Thanks for the update, Rodney. Unfortunately, that means we need to hope that another kind and adventurous soul decides to roll the dice and risk their investment for a good cause. But I thank you for doing that for us and the cause of knowledge, even if you did change your mind partway through; we got some good info from it.

-Mike