Automotive World: Is the US ready to accept diesel?

EOTS

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Let's put things into perspective here now! Based on past history of plans for new diesel models to North America by companies like Honda/Acura and Subaru, I would take the "I believe it when I see it" approach to avoid getting disappointed!

I would love to get into an Outback boxer diesel with AWD to boot. Between my wife and I, we had owned 6 Subaru's (1 still in the family) and they were all very reliable and very very low "grief per mile" factor. We have also owned 6 VW's (including my current '09 Jetta TDI 6M), which I must say were not that reliable especially comparing to Japanese cars like Toyotas and Hondas of the time. My '09 TDI actually broke down in the middle of rush hour traffic and had to be towed to VW (at my own expense but that's another story!). The VW service department found a broken auxilliary fuel pump (the one located in fuel tank) and replaced it with a new (hopefully) and improved (or at least better made!) unit. Only time would tell..... I had been using brand name ULSD and that certainly did not help the longevity of the fuel pump!

I hope Mazda would take on the leadership role and follow through with their plan to introduce a Mazda "6" diesel to North America. Then, may be Honda and Subaru will enter the diesel market with their TSX diesel and Boxer diesels, respectively.

Well, here is my spill on my disappointment that my TDI (with less 17k miles) had left me strained and that I am ready to give Subaru, Mazda or Honda a try, given the opportunity!

EOTS
 

ruking

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Let's put things into perspective here now! Based on past history of plans for new diesel models to North America by companies like Honda/Acura and Subaru, I would take the "I believe it when I see it" approach to avoid getting disappointed!

I would love to get into an Outback boxer diesel with AWD to boot. Between my wife and I, we had owned 6 Subaru's (1 still in the family) and they were all very reliable and very very low "grief per mile" factor. We have also owned 6 VW's (including my current '09 Jetta TDI 6M), which I must say were not that reliable especially comparing to Japanese cars like Toyotas and Hondas of the time. My '09 TDI actually broke down in the middle of rush hour traffic and had to be towed to VW (at my own expense but that's another story!). The VW service department found a broken auxilliary fuel pump (the one located in fuel tank) and replaced it with a new (hopefully) and improved (or at least better made!) unit. Only time would tell..... I had been using brand name ULSD and that certainly did not help the longevity of the fuel pump!

I hope Mazda would take on the leadership role and follow through with their plan to introduce a Mazda "6" diesel to North America. Then, may be Honda and Subaru will enter the diesel market with their TSX diesel and Boxer diesels, respectively.

Well, here is my spill on my disappointment that my TDI (with less 17k miles) had left me strained and that I am ready to give Subaru, Mazda or Honda a try, given the opportunity!

EOTS
I think in a lot of ways and for a LOT of reasons, that is/has been easier said than done. To wit, why haven't any of those oems already done it ? My biggest issue when any to all of them DO bring a TDI to the US markets is: what has been lost in the translation? This question of course will take @ least a number of those vehicles to have ( and some years) 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 miles to get a real reading.
 
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Steve-o

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Apparently, Mahindra sandbagged the distributor network so the contract would expire (delay, delay), and it resulted in a multimillion dollar lawsuit. No idea what was wrong about the existing Mahindra network handling sales, but it looks like another case of endless delays.
If Mahindra would do that to their distributor network (and it sure looks like they did), imagine what they'll do to just onesy-twosy buyers like us? It makes them look inept and/or greedy. IMHO, that move will cost Mahindra more in PR damage than they'll make in additional profit -- assuming the pik-up ever hits a sales floor. Given the strikes the truck already has against it, I'm thinking this thing will never sell in any numbers here (despite its relative popularity here).
 

Oberkanone

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Diesel sales Up, Hybrid sales Down

http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-clean-diesel-sales-dashboard/september-2010.html

While sales of hybrids and small cars are down, vehicles with clean diesel engines showed continued strength. All but one clean diesel model made decisive gains compared to last September, boosting overall clean diesel sales by 124.1 percent compared to a year ago. Volkswagen sold nearly 5,000 Jetta TDI units in September. The availability of the Jetta TDI as a fuel-efficient wagon is unique in the marketplace. This upward trend for diesel could continue, but only to a modest degree, because very few new clean diesel models are on the horizon.
:D
 

02DslPwr

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It's not just MPG versus cost of fuel. How much does it cost for an oil change on a gasser versus a TDI? Gas owners will freak out when they see $8 or $9 a liter oil.
My wife's '07 NB gets mid-low 20's mpg or maybe a little over 300 miles per tank. That gets her to around $.12 a mile for fuel. Oil change every 5k for ~$70 at the dealership.

My '02 JSW TDI gets around 600 miles per tank which gives me $.076 per mile (based on 20k miles of accurate fuel measurements) for fuel. Oil change every 10k miles, done myself, for ~$60(AMSOIL).

Every 10k miles her Bug costs ~$1340 in oil and gas.

Every 10k miles my TDI costs ~$820 in oil and gas.

So, her NB costs $500 more per 10k. Over 100k miles that's $5000 more to run. Maybe customers aren't being told the information in a way that makes them realize the substantial benefits of the TDI?
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Why are you changing your wife's Beetle's oil twice as often as necessary (and twice what the manufacturer says)?
 

1854sailor

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Why are you changing your wife's Beetle's oil twice as often as necessary (and twice what the manufacturer says)?
Given the mileage numbers that the OP posted, my guess is that it might be a gasser NB. ?Different OCI?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Given the mileage numbers that the OP posted, my guess is that it might be a gasser NB. ?Different OCI?

Gas VAG engines have 10k mile intervals, too. Only a couple of [older] engines that were 5k miles, the 2007 NB is not equipped with one of them. The owner's manual is worth a look. :cool:
 

FredIA

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Why are you changing your wife's Beetle's oil twice as often as necessary (and twice what the manufacturer says)?
That's because she takes it to the dealer. My local dealer insists on 5K changes (but says nothing when I always go over like I'm doing now at present) and refused to change the service interval indicator to 10K from the initial 5K when I asked. It's common.

Most dealers (at least the three that are within 50 mi of me) insist that VW is wrong and 5K is the correct OCI for all of the VW's.

But again, if he did the changes instead of the dealer it would be $35-45 every 10K.. those numbers change significantly towards the gasser.

I ususally change my PD's oil at 6-8K but I'm concerned with cam wear. Before that was an issue I went the full 10K. Now that it is about out of warranty (I had the 5 year/50K one not the new watered down one) I'm probably going to go 10K with Mobil TDT instead. I don't think the Catrol SLX oil is all that good, especially not for the price.

No offense to you guys, but unless someone comes up with a 6 passenger diesel van or car (which I'd jump on), and I decide to go with a car again for my second vehicle (not a small pickup which would be a good option for me actually) it will more than likely be the Ford Focus Ecoboost. It should be fun and untimately cheaper to drive. I'd guess more reliable too. The two VW's I own (TDI and Routan--yes the VolksChrysler) have been worse than the Kia I had in reliability (more so the Routan, tho.)

Fred
 

02DslPwr

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Why are you changing your wife's Beetle's oil twice as often as necessary (and twice what the manufacturer says)?
Yes, its a gasser. She wanted a TDI but I dont think they made the NB in TDI in '07. Now that we wants kids, I'm trying to talk her into a '11 JSW TDI. Because the beetle is covered under warranty, I'd rather just have the dealership do it for a few bucks more and them have a record of it. I didn't know the OCI was 10k for gassers too, I'll have to take a look.

Regardless, she is costing 4-5 cents more per mile for fuel.
 

1854sailor

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Gas VAG engines have 10k mile intervals, too. Only a couple of [older] engines that were 5k miles, the 2007 NB is not equipped with one of them. The owner's manual is worth a look. :cool:
I'm not familiar with the gassers. That's why I wrote "?Different OCI?" in my earlier post.
 

ruking

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Yes. I think HOW the discussion is shaped, variables, etc seems to be the dominant issue. We do not even go so far as to compare (like for like, 03 TDI, 2.0,1.8T, V6) per mile driven. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

So for example, with fuels @ corner store current prices: D2 $3.27, RUG $3.17, PUG 3.29,

prices pretty much speak for themselves.

YET a comparo of

D2 @46.4 mpg = .0704741 cents per mile driven fuel

RUG@ 30.7 mpg = .1032573 cents per mile driven fuel

PUG @28.7 mpg = .1167857 cents per mile driven fuel

V6 PUG @24.5 mpg =.13346 cents per mile driven fuel

LETS "like for like" RUG to PUG users (98% of passenger vehicle fleet is gasser aka RUG to PUG) pay a minimum of 46.5% more for fuel per mile driven !!?? Now vehicles in the passenger vehicle fleet that require PUG are app 9%. . So using the example, they do not mind paying app 65.7% more !!?? Now a V6 PUG driver doesn't mind paying 89.4% more per mile driven !!?? D2 passenger vehicle fleet is app one half of one percent (of 254.4 M passenger vehicles, one half of one percent= 1.272 M diesel passenger CARS)

So for some reason/s "WE" are all convinced that RUG to PUG is CHEAPER than D2 .... (per mile driven fuel)!!
 
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dubStrom

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Goofy at the pump.

I am not surprised :rolleyes:

Americans are notorious for looking at the "price" only. Not simple math, but simpleton math:p
Like... let's give Walmart a TIF deal and let them build a big box. And let's install infrastructure at taxpayers expense to do it...Those prices are "great", and they'll hire people (uh, and put traditional businesses out of business). Yeah, that's the ticket. One day, we'll all be so lucky to work there.

Besides, those diesel vehicles are scary:eek:, mysterious;), confusing:D !!!!

No spark plugs? Oh my!


btw- Just filled up, paid $2.869 per gallon driving 536 miles on 14.2 gallons translating to 37.8 mpg, or 7.6 cents per mile. This was almost entirely city driving. Rocket science :D
 
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ruking

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It was easy to see that the "system" does not want a much larger minority to pay the (D2 passenger cars are one half of one percent of the passenger vehicle fleet) cheap to CHEAPEST per mile fuel prices/costs. The defacto fleet AVERAGE mpg is actually much lower than D2's (VW TDI's of 46.4 mpg). However, they do want folks to pay MORE $'s; as expressed in cents per mile driven !!!???
So for example, 75% of the vehicle fleet are actually large cars to SUV's, to so called light trucks !!! I know for example, the SUV segment is 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet (30.528 M). Most folks (I talk to) who have SUVs get between 12-16 mpg. If you do the math price per gal/ mpg=, it is easy to see a HUGE minority (12% vs one half of one percent) pay even GREATER prices/costs per mile driven: fuel.
Again,... for example:
14 mpg/$3.17 gal., RUG
= .226 cents per mile driven. !!!!
Now that is 221% MORE per mile driven (than D2 in examples) !!!????
It is also easy to see the world system (don't forget spot oil prices are WORLD prices) equalizes the "results". To wit. That same 03 TDI in Euro operates in a $7.00 (I do not have a corner store price so it make be situationally inaccurate) so 46.4/$7.00 per gal (yes fuel in Europe is sold in liters) or .150862 cents per mile driven, fuel. So it is again a matter of what the composition of majority of the passenger vehicle fleet. So in that sense Europeans per mile driven might pay slightly more to about PAR as the US !!! (per mile driven fuel)
 
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dubStrom

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Luxury SUV

2011 Touareg TDI starts at over $40k.
People generally do not pay so much for an SUV, and it would certainly be good to see the Tiguan outfitted with 2.0L TDI here, even so, Touareg gets 18-25 (EPA est). So here is an SUV that goes a mile for under 16-12 cents (cty/hwy, based on $2.87/gallon I just paid).

Adblue factor (cost), and adjust for EPA estimate(low)... perhaps a wash.

It is not entirely clear why VW does not attempt to sell a less luxurious SUV TDI here. If VWs plans for moving more TDIs (and everything) in NA market, a Tiguan TDI would probably do well.
 

ruking

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This subject is also like an onion, there are many layers. While the layers are seemingly "TRANSPARENT", they can be any thing BUT transparent.

If the discussion wants to see a couple of back stories, I can give examples. If not, I do not want to bore folks on how we all pay WAY more than we should for fuel.
 
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cattlerepairman

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Interesting thread and food for thought. Some of my random considerations are

- in a country where a massive amount of people believes that carrying anything larger than a golf bag requires a sport ute and that only a full size 4x4 can really tow a trailer, the current VW lineup will always be lumped in together with the forgettable assortment of econoboxes. By definition, these are cheap to buy, cheap to operate while under warranty, do the daily grind and the consumer accepts that they won't last long.
That is a bad starting point for something such as a VW that considers itself to be a quality, if not luxury, automobile. The new New Jetta attacks this head-on with a competitive entry-level price, but the TDI pricing is still at a level the average commuter car buyer will not consider.

- I think the arguments others made with respect to many North Americans having neither the interest nor the knowledge to consider what's happening underneath the hood - other than "it's only a 4-cylinder" - makes selling cutting-edge technology tough. Selling an extra-long bed and three additional cup holders and a flip-up video screen is much easier. The lack of interest in things mechanical or ignorance towards anything that is not Detroit BigBlockTech have and will continue to thoroughly scr** up precision Diesel technology through operator and service errors. This results in defective and unreliable vehicles that cost lots to diagnose and fix - the majority of operators does not browse this forum or own an impact wrench. The ol' F-150 ain't needin' them fancy oils neither.

- The North American market touts competition and free markets - and is anything but, especially when automobiles are concerned. It is all about control and elimination of competition. Who cares what's offered on the World Market. You can't have it. Big Industry convinced the government long ago that you can only be allowed to buy what domestic retail is willing to sell to you. In a free market, you could easily import the vehicle of your choice from any other civilized country (don't come with emissions and safety issues; if that were true, why allow vehicles over a certain age in?). "Chicken Tax" and ridiculous retrofit requirements ("the unachievable "yes") are examples. Can anyone say, without turning red in the face, that a car manufactured for the EU market is not suitable to be on the road here?
There is no, zero, nada reason why I should not be allowed to purchase, import and plate a 2011 V8 TDI Touareg straight from Germany.
 
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atc98002

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What really annoys me is that D2 prices here in Western Washington (Seattle-Tacoma area) jumped over the past few weeks to 30-40 cents over PUG. Gasoline prices have hardly budged, so why did D2 take a huge jump? Most stations around here are $3.59 or higher for D2, while RUG is still around $3.00. We have not seen D2 priced below PUG in a long time.

And Bio-D is super high as well. Only station near me is over $5/gallon.

Even so, I still really want a diesel for my next car. Just looked at the new E350 Bluetec, and man, that is a nice car. Just not sure I can stomach dropping $60 thou on a car. That's what I paid for my first house in 1979!:eek:
 
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domboy

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- The North American market touts competition and free markets - and is anything but, especially when automobiles are concerned. It is all about control and elimination of competition. Who cares what's offered on the World Market. You can't have it. Big Industry convinced the government long ago that you can only be allowed to buy what domestic retail is willing to sell to you. In a free market, you could easily import the vehicle of your choice from any other civilized country (don't come with emissions and safety issues; if that were true, why allow vehicles over a certain age in?). "Chicken Tax" and ridiculous retrofit requirements ("the unachievable "yes") are examples. Can anyone say, without turning red in the face, that a car manufactured for the EU market is not suitable to be on the road here?
There is no, zero, nada reason why I should not be allowed to purchase, import and plate a 2011 V8 TDI Touareg straight from Germany.
I've said that myself many times. I should be able to order any vehicle I want. We live in a global economy now... lets get with the program. Though my imported vehicle will be the Amarok not the Touareg...
 

ruking

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They just lead you to believe it is a global economy. The results should demonstrate the realities.
 

dubStrom

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They just lead you to believe it is a global economy. The results should demonstrate the realities.
Ha! Funny.

I suppose it is really a global economy for big business, with lawyers (Walmart, Exxon, AIG, Chase). Small business is just pushed around by the global economy, and us consumers, well most of us are bona fide bottom feeders;)
 

ruking

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Ha! Funny.
I suppose it is really a global economy for big business, with lawyers (Walmart, Exxon, AIG, Chase). Small business is just pushed around by the global economy, and us consumers, well most of us are bona fide bottom feeders;)
It is interesting that Toyota Motor Co closed its' CA Corolla, Tacoma plant. It is well known a big % 's of those products are to fulfill the CA market. Are we so ANTI business that we need to get rid of one of the world's biggest car manufacturers plants?? I suppose the majority political party is going to spin\take credit for ADDING jobs.
 
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kjclow

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- I think the arguments others made with respect to many North Americans having neither the interest nor the knowledge to consider what's happening underneath the hood - other than "it's only a 4-cylinder" - makes selling cutting-edge technology tough. Selling an extra-long bed and three additional cup holders and a flip-up video screen is much easier. The lack of interest in things mechanical or ignorance towards anything that is not Detroit BigBlockTech have and will continue to thoroughly scr** up precision Diesel technology through operator and service errors. This results in defective and unreliable vehicles that cost lots to diagnose and fix - the majority of operators does not browse this forum or own an impact wrench. The ol' F-150 ain't needin' them fancy oils neither.
Part of the problem I see is that engines themselves have gotten extremely complicated. My dad used to have a mid to late F350, I could sit on the fenders to work on the top of the engine. If I had to, I could stand in the engine compartment to work on about anything else. With all of the pollution and computer stuff, it is difficult to even find the engine. Add to that, if you want to do anything other than change the oil, you have to have a computer and the proper program, i.e. the people on here that have vag-com.
 

wolfskin

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Ok, it was nice to have 7 moving parts in the engine bay, all just overdesigned to never have to worry about wear&tear.

But all the new complexity is because we did not like so much to breath in the toxic fumes and we did not enjoy 5mpg FE, and we did not enjoy being mangled inside the crushed vehicle in a 30mph crash.

There's no simple way to achieve what today's vehicles achive, on all fronts. You want speed, wou want creature comforts, you want safety, you want FE, you want clean exhaust, you gotta give up standing in the engine bay and fixing your own car with a hammer and a couple of wrenches.
 

LRTDI

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RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
The Mazda diesel we are purportedly getting here is firstly the the CX7 SUV. Have to wonder if they'll have a smaller car with diesel as well.
 

ruking

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The Mazda diesel we are purportedly getting here is firstly the the CX7 SUV. Have to wonder if they'll have a smaller car with diesel as well.
Either way it is way too early to tell, i.e., Honda's diesel, Civic, Accord, Tsx, ... then nada. Most folks don't know to even remember VV came out with a TDI V10, not too long ago.
 
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