Audi's 3.0 TDI "Cleanest Diesel in the World"

AndyH

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Engineering TV has an excellent two-part video interview with Herr Schiele:

http://engineeringtv.com/blogs/etv/archive/2009/04/07/cleanest-diesel-in-the-world.aspx

Audi's Manager of Diesel Engineering, Günter Schiele, discusses what it takes to produce the "cleanest diesel in the world", Audi's six-cylinder 3.0 TDI used in their Q7 SUV and the Sportback concept car revealed at the 2009 NAIAS. The diesel engine development engineers at Audi have combined an entire package of innovative measures for this latest TDI generation: the piezo common rail system with an injection pressure of 2,000 bar, highly efficient exhaust gas recirculation and optimized turbocharging result in significantly reduced raw engine emissions. For more information, go to: Audi.
 
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Lug_Nut

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Cleanest diesel
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Sorry, but as much as I like my diesels, being the best of an admittedly not all that clean group doesn't confer bragging rights.
 

Dooglas

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Lug_Nut said:
Sorry, but as much as I like my diesels, being the best of an admittedly not all that clean group doesn't confer bragging rights.
Admitted by whom? US auto writers that still don't like the 1979 diesel Oldsmobile? Seems to me like the '09 TDI represents far more advanced clean vehicle technology than most current generation gassers. Care to offer a few reasons why you believe that the current VW TDI CR which meets all applicable CA, US, and European emission standards, for example, is not clean enough for you to accept Schiele's statements about clean diesel technology. Especially interesting to talk CO2 for a moment.
 
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Ol'Rattler

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35% better fuel consumption over gassers answers the question about CO2 emissions. If Rudolf Diesel were still alive he would be grinning from ear to ear.:D
 

Joe W

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I've got a 2009 Jetta TDI with 8,000 miles on it. You can take your finger and wipe it around the exhaust pipe and will not get a mark on you finger. The pipe is as clean as new. Try that with any gasser.

While the MPG may not be what was expect the Jetta TDI; and I'm sure the new AUDI TDI is as green if not greener then any gasser.
 

SnowCub

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Dooglas said:
,

Admitted by whom? US auto writers that still don't like the 1979 diesel Oldsmobile? Seems to me like the '09 TDI represents far more advanced clean vehicle technology than most current generation gassers. Care to offer a few reasons why you believe that the current VW TDI CR which meets all applicable CA, US, and European emission standards, for example, is not clean enough for you to accept Schiele's statements about clean diesel technology.
I'm going to have to support Lug_nut's position on this one. While the 09 TDI's are great, it's emmisions still only *just* meet those of regular gasoline powered cars. The hybrids are a lot cleaner on emissions. According to fueleconomy.gov, the tdi has an air polution score of 6 while the Honda and Toyota Hybrids score 8 and 9. Calling a diesel "clean" is a stretch that is frequently pointed out by many of my friends.
 

donfromnaples

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I agree. There are only a handful of cars with a lower CO2 rating than the new VW clean diesel.
 

donfromnaples

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Snowclub, I think only the Civic Hybrid, Prius, the new Honda Insight are among the lowest CO2 offenders. The VW clean diesel is right behind them. Plus, gassers emit higher doses of other harmful chemicals not present in diesel combustion.
 

cheeba

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SnowCub said:
According to fueleconomy.gov, the tdi has an air polution score of 6 while the Honda and Toyota Hybrids score 8 and 9. Calling a diesel "clean" is a stretch that is frequently pointed out by many of my friends.
Let's keep the argument to actual data/facts, rather than arbitrary rhetoric; if that number stands for actual data, explain further.
 

wxman

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It’s bad enough that many in the general population still believe the diesel-engines-are-inherently-dirtier-than-gas-engines myth, but I can hardly believe some of the diesel proponents here actually believe this nonsense too.

The “green scores” from fueleconomy.gov are based on the “Bin” to which the vehicles are certified. In the first place, these Bins set LIMITS on each criteria (regulated) pollutant; the margin by which the vehicle meets the limits within a Bin is not taken into consideration. The 2009 Jetta TDI is near or below SULEV/Bin 2 limits for all criteria pollutants except for NOx (which is what throws it into Bin 5, and even then, it meets the Bin 5 limit by a factor of almost 2), based on the certified emissions data.

In the second, these “limits” are actually quite arbitrary and do not necessarily reflect the relative impacts each has on air quality. Furthermore, evaporative emissions are not reflected in these “green scores” (they’re based on “tailpipe” emissions only). Diesels have virtually no evaporative emissions because of the extremely low vapor pressure of diesel fuel (or biodiesel or any other fuels in the diesel range, i.e., CTL, GTL). Anything that runs on gasoline (a very volatile substance) is responsible for lots of evaporative emissions, both directly and indirectly.

A careful analysis of the certified emissions data of the clean diesels now being introduce suggests that they are at worse a wash with respect to even the “cleanest” gasoline vehicles, regardless of the “green score” assigned.
 

SnowCub

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cheeba said:
Let's keep the argument to actual data/facts, rather than arbitrary rhetoric; if that number stands for actual data, explain further.
I would actually love to see the exact emmissions figures because as I said I am constantly slammed by people because I drive a diesel. Looking at the Fueleconomy.gov website, their air pollution scores put the TDI on level with the gas Jetta. Compared to the Civic Hybrid and the regular gas Camry the TDI is much dirtier and not clean at all. I'm not saying that I would want to own either a Civic or a Camry but it's pretty hard to refute the emmissions argument when standardized testing agencies say that the tdi is not that clean.

 
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SnowCub

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I have heard many folks on these forums say that the government figures are wrong or they don't take the whole picture into account. I've googled until my fingers hurt looking for university studies, or independent research projects that said yes, gas engine particulates and emissions are more harmful then those produced by diesels. But I haven't found one. Does anyone have one? A link? Anything?

I love my diesels but my friends still think I'm nuts for owning one and I can't find any facts to refute their claim.
 

clint440

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This carbon footprint, clean up the air is so blown out of proportion. I don't see any damn efficiency out of a hybrid when it is far more complex with 2 completey different powertrains. That is just a way for dealers and govt to make more money on services and have batteries replaced.

I think the power, efficiency, mileage, and durability are always forgotten with shortsighted environmentalists! If a Semi that pulls 50 to 80,000 lbs on a engine that can last a million miles is pretty damn efficient compared to how many gassers it would take to haul the same volume with FAR shorter engine life.

A TDI VW can run over 200,000 miles easy unlike a gasser and a hybrid is going to even have shorter life span. So how is building more throw away cars more economical?

Only in America can we have so many ignorant people! Europe has been running diesels for years and they don't have smog problems. And the EPA is more stringent than Europes air quality standards. explain that? just some far left lobbysts making money behind there hyprocasy
 
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Mike in Anchorage

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America does not have a monopoly on stupid people

so Clint, you'll need to rephrase your comment. :cool:
 

wxman

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SnowCub said:
I have heard many folks on these forums say that the government figures are wrong or they don't take the whole picture into account. I've googled until my fingers hurt looking for university studies, or independent research projects that said yes, gas engine particulates and emissions are more harmful then those produced by diesels. But I haven't found one. Does anyone have one? A link? Anything?

I love my diesels but my friends still think I'm nuts for owning one and I can't find any facts to refute their claim.
FYI - I've put together a "research clearinghouse" of references involving diesel vs. gas emissions and their impacts on air quality (see sig).

The CARB certified emissions data are available at http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/cert.php#6 and the EPA certified emissions data are available at http://www.epa.gov/oms/crttst.htm .
 

clint440

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Mike in Anchorage said:
so Clint, you'll need to rephrase your comment. :cool:
when i hear about diesel naysayers. As people do not realize the extent of diesel fuel in terms impact. Agriculture and infrastructure is because of DIESEL. Diesel is used because it is EFFICIENT when taken into consideration with all the other attributes it posseses which in my opinion far outweighs whatever peceived toxic pollution they spew out, according to diesel haters.

It just seems as their is a conspiracy in the US against diesel engines, even though they are pretty darn clean now adays.

The US is very ignorant about diesels to put it politely. When say the US, I mean the govt, elitist media and people who all believe their hogwash and cant apply common sense.
 

bluengreen

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I wonder how much of the "facts" that float around about Diesels are based upon pre-particulate filter and pre-ULSD statistics? Certainly the technology of both is new enough that most of the data out there may need a tweak. The Europeans have quite clearly voted thus far with their feet - they chose Diesel, then Gassers and thus far very few Hybrids. I have seen this firsthand across France only a few months ago. Diesel is also the cheapest fuel there.
People don't generally consider that some new technology has unintended consequences and unforseen costs.
Going Electric? First find a car, then make sure it's legal-by the time you build a crashworthy car chances are the weight will be right up there. If your pushing the weight you can't go too far without a plug in or a switch over to gas. Hybrids have extra electrical engines plus battery weight.
Segway is ready to push a new version that has greenies drooling already- it has all the attractive looks of a secondhand wheelchair with training wheels (front & back) in khaki trying to mate with a tarp.
Now picture a city full - nowhere to plug in (How green is all the infrastructure you need to add for plug ins?). So you pile into your old elevator (Gotta take it upstairs to plug in can't do it curbside, besides it's too easily stolen off the street). Of course 1 Segway - 1 elevator trip likely with the owner only aboard (How green is that?).
Now the piece de resistance- the B-A-T-T-E-R-Y. Hybrids and ALL electrics can't escape that Lithium battery - that will liberate us from foreign oil once and for all (well, partly if your driving a hybrid). The only problem is lithium is mined (well at least THAT is a Green process) most of it is found in Bolivia (oops, a Foreign country that would be looking to supply us with energy at whatever price they can force Lith-PEC?) and they really, really (apologies to Sally Field ) like us (NOT). Well at least lithium is Green (yup - slightly less green than nuclear waste but mainly because it doesn't glow green by night).
Wait until the fun really starts and people start wanting to throw those lithium bad boys away. The howling over that will drown out any memory of Diesel badmouthing that anyone can remember. Wait for it...
What will the battery boys say when we're running our "rigs" on algae - will it be "cool" then or will Rudolf D's name still be unhip because its a long term proven tech and not a come-along-last-tuesday gee whiz kids - technology.
Alot of the shine on the new hip tech is simply that no one has figured out all the drawbacks of it yet. People run like lemmings because the label says "new", some of us like to see what's in the box first to find out if it's just a fresh take on the SOS.
Anyone for a gallon of ethanol and a corn dog, now that was not just a treat it was a REAL success story: new, hip and half baked.
 

solarmike

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This V6 TDI is in an SUV, tell us what the emissions on a Hybrid Chevy or Ford SUV is. I'll bet you that the TDI is much better. Be smart about your argument and compare apples to apples.
 

wxman

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solarmike said:
This V6 TDI is in an SUV, tell us what the emissions on a Hybrid Chevy or Ford SUV is. I'll bet you that the TDI is much better. Be smart about your argument and compare apples to apples.
Here are the certified emissions (CARB data) for the V6 TDI, the Chevy Tahoe/Yukon Hybrid, and the BMW X5 xDRIVE35d. I'm not sure the Chevy hybrid is a direct competitor and thus is a fair comparison, but I'm having problems with "runtime errors" when trying to open the pdf cert files today, and the Tahoe/Yukon hybrid was the only hybrid SUV for which I already had emissions data...


http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/audi_ldt_a0300218_3d0_u2_diesel.pdf (VW Touareg2 TDI)
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/gm_ldt_a0061557_6d0_l2_hevge.pdf (Tahoe/Yukon Hybrid)
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/bmw_ldt_a0080248_3d0_l2_diesel.pdf (BMW X5 xDRIVE35d)

(Grams/mile)

Emission.................Touareg2 TDI...............Tahoe/Yukon Hybrid................X5 xDRIVE35d

NMHC/NMOG...........0.032..............................0.078...................................0.020
CO.........................0.3..................................0.7....................................0.1
NOx.......................0.05................................0.04...................................0.03
Highway NOx...........0.08................................0.02....................................0.02
PM........................0.002...............................----....................................0.000
US06 HC+NOx..........0.21.................................0.06...................................0.20
US06 CO.................0.01.................................2.2....................................0.0
SC03 HC+NOx..........0.08.................................0.05...................................0.02
SC03 CO.................0.0...................................0.4.....................................0.0
VEH. EVAP..............----.................................0.012..................................----
 

SMUG SLUG

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big picture

emissions are not the only aspect of a "green" vehicle - just as organic is not the only aspect of "green" food:

analyze the cradle to grave life cycle of most vehicles-

how much energy does it take to produce 300k miles driven in a hybrid - can one hybrid go 300k or does it take two or three vehicles to make the 300k mark?

what about mantainence? how much energy does it take to produce the new part for a hybrid and how often do the parts need to be replaced?

how much energy does it take to build the new infrastructure to support the new hybrid technology?

what about fuel refining? is there a larger environmental (emmision/ energy consumption) impact from the more advanced refining that gasoline requires vs. the refining of diesel fuel? what about the environmental impact of producing electricity - most of the electricity produced in the US is from coal fire plants - that makes the electric plug-in car not to emission friendly!

can any of these products be produced in the US?
importing vehicles - no matter what type - increases the carbon foot print compared to domestically produced products

it is not just what come out of the tail pipe that impacts the overall footprint of the product
 
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cptmox

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http://www.everymilesamemory.com/diesel_fact_page.htm

Summary

Diesel motors are better than petrol motors with reference to carbon dioxide, the global warming gas.

Diesel motors are better than petrol motors with reference to carbon monoxide, a poison.

Diesel motors are better than petrol motors with reference to hydrocarbons which cause cancer.

Diesel motors are similar to petrol motors with reference to nitrous oxides, which cause smog.

Diesel motors are worse than petrol motors with reference to particulates, which have unproved health impacts.
 

mavapa

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While I don't disagree with the general sentiment about diesels, I think it has been shown that increases in particulates correlate with higher morbidity and mortality rates.
 

wxman

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mavapa - I agree, but the new "clean diesels" being discussed here all have DPFs which essentially eliminate PM emissions.

Diesel LDVs now appear to actually have an advantage over gasoline LDVs from a PM emissions perspective.
 

Bob_Fout

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mavapa said:
While I don't disagree with the general sentiment about diesels, I think it has been shown that increases in particulates correlate with higher morbidity and mortality rates.
Are these problems in Europe?
 

mavapa

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wxman - yes, the particulate filters/traps should essentially eliminate the PM problem, which, I think gives diesels a real advantage.

Bob - there are a number of studies in the US showing the effects of PM on health. As wxman noted, "modern" diesels should have a greatly reduced problem with particulates.
 

TomB

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Add the factor os using biofuels instead of D2 and these numbers all decrease for the better.

Wonder how NOx would fair with the new Urea/BluTec for B100.


Would be a good study to see what the NOx numbers are now for B100 with the new controls other than BluTec.
 

SnowCub

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wxman said:
FYI - I've put together a "research clearinghouse" of references involving diesel vs. gas emissions and their impacts on air quality (see sig).
Thank you for the links. I have been having this argument of diesel vs. hybrids for a longtime. Hopefully this will give me some much needed back up.

As for the hybrid life cycle I'm not sure this has been quantified yet. I know lots of folks have said that the hybrids will need their battery packs replaced, but there are documented cases of hybrid taxis in Japan working fune with over 300,000 miles on their original battery packs. Even if the battery packs need to be replaced, the batteries can be recycled, right?
 

SnowCub

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TomB said:
Wonder how NOx would fair with the new Urea/BluTec for B100.

Would be a good study to see what the NOx numbers are now for B100 with the new controls other than BluTec.
As far as I know, B100 can't be used in any of the new engines without causing all sorts of check engine lights and what not. I agree it would be interesting to see what emmissions are like with B100. Perhaps bypass the dpf and the engine warnings?
 

abctdi

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SnowCub said:
I love my diesels but my friends still think I'm nuts for owning one and I can't find any facts to refute their claim.
Friends don't let friends drive hybrids...maybe you need new friends?
Keep the diesel. What about the hybrid's dead battery's impact to the environment?
 
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