Audi A6 Avant 2.5 V6 TDI Quattro
- Thread starter Fez
- Start date
adamss24
Veteran Member
volkswarren
Well-known member
Cool thanks, just have to wait for a set to come on ebay, used to see loads around £60 a set, seem to want as much as AKE injectors at the moment 
Vegified TDi
Well-known member
Hi folks. I just imported a 1996 A6 Avant Quattro diesel. Anyone know where I can get a hold of a repair manual?
Also is this the best forum for these cars? I'm on here mainly for my VW and have always found amazing help here.
Thanks
Torie
Also is this the best forum for these cars? I'm on here mainly for my VW and have always found amazing help here.
Thanks
Torie
ulinux
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2001
- TDI
- 2,5l A6 V6 TDI TURBO QUATTRO 24V TT5, 1,9l TDI Passat 3B AFN AG4
Read about the whole thread. Intresting stuff. Especially noticed fjtwelves project with impressive +600nm torque numbers.
I have a stock A4 B6 2,5TDI AKE -01. Cams checked and all lifters changed a bit over 10000km ago. About the same time stock flywheel was replaced along with SRE clutch setup and standard clutchplate. Car has 6sp manual transmission and naturally quattro powertrain.
What I'm looking for is more power but which is the "best" way to do it?
- Remap only - 200-210bhp?
- Upgrade turbo ok, where stock AKE nozzles are limiting? Around that same 200bhp or higher? Is there a point to upgrade turbo compared to remap only?
- New IC solution (custom DSMICs or FMIC) but I guess this isn't first things. Fjtwelve reported having +260bhp/+600nm with stock ICs. As long as they work and don't leak.
- Nozzles, unavoidable at some point...
- Exhaust. I know DP isn't that ideal and why not have some V6 noise...
But which is "the best" route to go?
I wound't ask but as you propably guess I can't have them all at once.
Do these make any sense:
Stage 1:
- Standard turbo, hi-flow exhaust, upgraded IC solution, cleaned intake-manifold and remap (propably no more than 200-220bhp? Where AKE nozzles drop off?)
Stage 2:
- Upgraded turbo, big nozzles and remap
OR:
Stage 1:
- Upgraded turbo, standard nozzles and remap
Stage 1.5:
- Upgraded IC solution, hi-flow exhaust, cleaned intake manifold
Stage 2:
- Big nozzles and remap
Basically later solution might give more in Stage 1 allthought there might be some effect on those IC and exhaust mods. But still far from upgraded turbos capabilities.
I have a stock A4 B6 2,5TDI AKE -01. Cams checked and all lifters changed a bit over 10000km ago. About the same time stock flywheel was replaced along with SRE clutch setup and standard clutchplate. Car has 6sp manual transmission and naturally quattro powertrain.
What I'm looking for is more power but which is the "best" way to do it?
- Remap only - 200-210bhp?
- Upgrade turbo ok, where stock AKE nozzles are limiting? Around that same 200bhp or higher? Is there a point to upgrade turbo compared to remap only?
- New IC solution (custom DSMICs or FMIC) but I guess this isn't first things. Fjtwelve reported having +260bhp/+600nm with stock ICs. As long as they work and don't leak.
- Nozzles, unavoidable at some point...
- Exhaust. I know DP isn't that ideal and why not have some V6 noise...
But which is "the best" route to go?
I wound't ask but as you propably guess I can't have them all at once.
Do these make any sense:
Stage 1:
- Standard turbo, hi-flow exhaust, upgraded IC solution, cleaned intake-manifold and remap (propably no more than 200-220bhp? Where AKE nozzles drop off?)
Stage 2:
- Upgraded turbo, big nozzles and remap
OR:
Stage 1:
- Upgraded turbo, standard nozzles and remap
Stage 1.5:
- Upgraded IC solution, hi-flow exhaust, cleaned intake manifold
Stage 2:
- Big nozzles and remap
Basically later solution might give more in Stage 1 allthought there might be some effect on those IC and exhaust mods. But still far from upgraded turbos capabilities.
ulinux
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2001
- TDI
- 2,5l A6 V6 TDI TURBO QUATTRO 24V TT5, 1,9l TDI Passat 3B AFN AG4
The A4 AKE has an injection pump that is limiting injection quantity at 55mg. You can configure the chip to use these 55 mg mg but you will experience boost creep above 3000 rpm. So a bigger turbo might give you the abbility not to experience boost creep but it is not really a gain in power. With 55mg you will also have increased injection time and exhaust temperature will raise. It may kill you the exhaust valves by overheating them.
adamss24
Veteran Member
Not the early ones ! The early 2001 a4 quattros have all metal intercoolers and the sport models have the same turbo as the a6, either ending in S or F. Later 02 on a4 have the extra immobiliser and plastic ended intercoolers.The A4 AKE has an injection pump that is limiting injection quantity at 55mg. You can configure the chip to use these 55 mg mg but you will experience boost creep above 3000 rpm. So a bigger turbo might give you the abbility not to experience boost creep but it is not really a gain in power. With 55mg you will also have increased injection time and exhaust temperature will raise. It may kill you the exhaust valves by overheating them.
I have fjtwelve old a6 which i bought with a broken engine and done a little work to get it back on the road, the torque ripped the crankshaft pulley and the timing jumped all over the place, the belt moved and all rockers shatered. The heads were ported and the compression lowered.
I also had the race nozzles balanced and pop tested and the plastic ended intercooler replaced with the early allroad intercooler- also full alloy so it can hold more boost without splitting.
Also the old turbo had a damaged turbine due to rusty exhaust manifolds sending shards of metal into the turbo so that got replaced with a turbine off a GT2256v mercedes turbocharger. The larger turbine is a better match to the 60mm compressor wheel and i should not get boost creep- not that i noticed any before.
Now the car is pushing about 300Bhp with a GTB2260vk turbo which i modified to fit but aiming for a little more so a hybrid turbo from Darkside will replace it shortly... The flywheel rumbles if i step on it hard but the clutch holds pretty well... I have a stronger clutch to fit when weather gets warmer but i don't drive it much lately !
adamss24
Veteran Member
Uhm. I guess ICs have to be checked along with turbo. I know it's 1st gen VNT technology and I was recommended to use at least 2nd gen VNT for a hybrid (or then go for 2260).
What about the VP44 pumps. Are all B6 models with 55mg limit or is there a "early-late" model difference as well?
At least my cars MAF isn't Bosch which indicated for "transition" model on some parts. Stock turbo is also gen 1 VNT and VP44 ends with 030 which indicated for "big pump"? Car is 09/2001 so it's very early AKE engined B6 quattros.
... the downside of 630nm?
adamss24
Veteran Member
The 180 Bhp used the GT2052v turbo which IS the 2nd generation VNT turbo with narrow vanes on the vnt pack. It also have a slightly larger (2mm or so) compressor wheel. Also you need to check the nozzles, early a6 quattro had DSLA930 and later had DSLA1025, the 150Bhp had DSLA683 which are compatible with the PP683/race683 nozzles.
I also have 2 early 01/02 audi a4 v6 quattro and one 03 model, one is the sport version and had the S turbo the other is a SE and had the turbo ending in F. The early ones pull harder than the 03 plate even though the 03 is remapped. Tried the same map on the early ones and there is no difference between the power delivery, i would say the early ones are a little faster off the line ! Remember the AKE has a 2 plunger/11mm head but the best pump is to have a hybrid 3 plunger and 11mm head- that's what i have on the a6 and with the race nozzles i have enough fuel for over 400 Bhp, no doubts about it !
630Nm was with a worn engine and a few missing rocker arms, is close to 700Nm now. Need to map it properly and take it on a rolling road. I have a friend who owns a stock rs4 b5 and when i took it for a drive in mine it was very impressed ! However the a6 is a big barge and i would not call it sporty, i am planning to pull the engine of it and swap it into my old b5 quattro, thing is i had a hybrid pump i lent to my mate when his one failed and he sold his car with my pump on it ! Idiot did not know it cost me £800 to have the pump built to my spec !
The b5 had loads of suspension upgrades to cope with the power:big brakes, H&R antiroll bars, rs4 rear diff, forged axles, rs4 suspension and much more...Here's few pictures, it lays in my car park without an engine as i sold it to another forum member- was thinking to swap a 1.9Tdi engine on it !
I also have 2 early 01/02 audi a4 v6 quattro and one 03 model, one is the sport version and had the S turbo the other is a SE and had the turbo ending in F. The early ones pull harder than the 03 plate even though the 03 is remapped. Tried the same map on the early ones and there is no difference between the power delivery, i would say the early ones are a little faster off the line ! Remember the AKE has a 2 plunger/11mm head but the best pump is to have a hybrid 3 plunger and 11mm head- that's what i have on the a6 and with the race nozzles i have enough fuel for over 400 Bhp, no doubts about it !
630Nm was with a worn engine and a few missing rocker arms, is close to 700Nm now. Need to map it properly and take it on a rolling road. I have a friend who owns a stock rs4 b5 and when i took it for a drive in mine it was very impressed ! However the a6 is a big barge and i would not call it sporty, i am planning to pull the engine of it and swap it into my old b5 quattro, thing is i had a hybrid pump i lent to my mate when his one failed and he sold his car with my pump on it ! Idiot did not know it cost me £800 to have the pump built to my spec !
The b5 had loads of suspension upgrades to cope with the power:big brakes, H&R antiroll bars, rs4 rear diff, forged axles, rs4 suspension and much more...Here's few pictures, it lays in my car park without an engine as i sold it to another forum member- was thinking to swap a 1.9Tdi engine on it !
Turbo is checked. It's not 009 (end of Garrett number on the plate) or newer which have Gen 2 VNT. I don't know is that normal with early B6 models.
Are all B5 2,5TDI VP44 pumps without limitations? So is there a possibility that early B6s might be unlimited?
adamss24
Veteran Member
What is the audi part number on the turbo ? If it ends in C or G then it's first gen., if ends in F,S or M then it's the later turbo with gen.2 VNT pack. I have 2 early b6 (one made in 2001 and the other in 2002) and both had gen.2 VNT GT2052v turbochargers.
As far as i know b5 VP44 had no limitation in the ECU... Check if yours have full alloy intercoolers (end caps should be cast aluminium), chances are that you have an early pump and the turbo runs a little more boost as well, they had no emission issues back then, they could pass Euro3 by just adding an extra hole on the nozzle and increasing pump pressure for better atomisation.
As far as i know b5 VP44 had no limitation in the ECU... Check if yours have full alloy intercoolers (end caps should be cast aluminium), chances are that you have an early pump and the turbo runs a little more boost as well, they had no emission issues back then, they could pass Euro3 by just adding an extra hole on the nozzle and increasing pump pressure for better atomisation.
Messy plate and tight spot to look but part number seemed to end 01F. So it's Gen 2 then?
adamss24
Veteran Member
Yep, gen 2 VNT...
diffas
Veteran Member
Loads of bs here about turbos, but it's ok if you believe the story yourself.
There are same size wheels inside and all 2.5 v6 turbos are capable same mount of power. Maybe there are different turbos put on cars in UK.
Quote from garrett:
The VNT™ principle was then applied to our GT range of turbos and the development has taken it from the original version (dubbed the generation 0) all the way to the current 3rd generation enhanced by the latest optimization. The different VNT™ generations can be identified by their model numbers; starting with GT (1st generation), GTA (2nd generation), GTB (3rd generation) and GTC (optimized 3rd generation). Each one of these generations represents a significant improvement in the design, performance and durability of the VNT™ mechanism.
There are same size wheels inside and all 2.5 v6 turbos are capable same mount of power. Maybe there are different turbos put on cars in UK.
Quote from garrett:
The VNT™ principle was then applied to our GT range of turbos and the development has taken it from the original version (dubbed the generation 0) all the way to the current 3rd generation enhanced by the latest optimization. The different VNT™ generations can be identified by their model numbers; starting with GT (1st generation), GTA (2nd generation), GTB (3rd generation) and GTC (optimized 3rd generation). Each one of these generations represents a significant improvement in the design, performance and durability of the VNT™ mechanism.
Well I didn't thought to put up more power with what ever the stock turbo is but if VNT would be Gen 2 my present turbo might give decent place to start modding instead of buying whole new one to modify. Might save some €€€ there...
I think Garret serial numbers don't have letters in them so 01F end should be original Audi product number. Makes sense since I've noticed about all in this -01 car is factory stock. Replaced original -01 battery in the summer, tough thing for a car battery...
I think Garret serial numbers don't have letters in them so 01F end should be original Audi product number. Makes sense since I've noticed about all in this -01 car is factory stock. Replaced original -01 battery in the summer, tough thing for a car battery...
adamss24
Veteran Member
GT2050v is not the same as GT2052v, later has different compressor geometry, different vane design and different VNT pack. I can tell you for sure that turbine off 2000 allroad 180Bhp is larger than one of a 180 bhp audi a4 b6 2004...same with compressor trims...There are same size wheels inside and all 2.5 v6 turbos are capable same mount of power. Maybe there are different turbos put on cars in UK.
adamss24
Veteran Member
Because folk believe they are the same turbo when they are not (?) even though many v6 tdi can have the wrong turbo fitted as a 2nd hand replacement... Also early/final edition models can have weird spec with many odd parts fitted just to get rid of the old stock...that was my point !gt2050v?
majesty78
Veteran Member
The 2.5L V6 VNT Turbos:
1: Always carrying Garrett no. 454135.
They had several evolutions, going from endnumber -0001 up to -0010 (454135-0001 to 454135-0010)
2: Always have the same turbine side diameters which are 47mm inducer and 38.7mm exducer.
Changes being made is the "upgrade" from slender shaft turbine in the early versions to full shaft in later versions. Same time the turbine wheel material changed from GMR (first slender shaft) to Inconell (later slender shaft)
3: Other changes:
Upgrade from Gen. 1 VNT (the one with the 6 alignment axles/rollers for vnt and a beefier VNT ring to Gen. 2 VNT with a lighter VNT ring and only 3 axles/rollers.
Changes in coating of vacuum actuator to a more envoirement friendly version.
Changes in tip heigth of compressor wheel from 5mm to 4mm. (Diameters always remain identical)
Changes in backplate bore for upgraded thrust collar design from 9 to 10mm and wider compressor sealant piston ring.
Changes in bolt pattern for VNT nozzle ring assembly retainment.
BR
Alex
1: Always carrying Garrett no. 454135.
They had several evolutions, going from endnumber -0001 up to -0010 (454135-0001 to 454135-0010)
2: Always have the same turbine side diameters which are 47mm inducer and 38.7mm exducer.
Changes being made is the "upgrade" from slender shaft turbine in the early versions to full shaft in later versions. Same time the turbine wheel material changed from GMR (first slender shaft) to Inconell (later slender shaft)
3: Other changes:
Upgrade from Gen. 1 VNT (the one with the 6 alignment axles/rollers for vnt and a beefier VNT ring to Gen. 2 VNT with a lighter VNT ring and only 3 axles/rollers.
Changes in coating of vacuum actuator to a more envoirement friendly version.
Changes in tip heigth of compressor wheel from 5mm to 4mm. (Diameters always remain identical)
Changes in backplate bore for upgraded thrust collar design from 9 to 10mm and wider compressor sealant piston ring.
Changes in bolt pattern for VNT nozzle ring assembly retainment.
BR
Alex
Last edited:
Cast aluminium ends check. Actually they looked like cast aluminium and were welded to rest of the IC. I guess they should hold some pressure compared to plastic ones...?Check if yours have full alloy intercoolers (end caps should be cast aluminium),
adamss24
Veteran Member
Had the old Turbo Dynamics hybrid rebuilt by Adam Davidson at Tdi Turbos in Poole Dorset and he did a cracking job ! The old turbine and VNT pack got damaged due to inner manifolds breaking so i sourced a Mercedes GTB2256 turbocharger just for the VNT pack and turbine + the housing was machined to take the larger turbine as well. Adam said that there's still room for a larger compressor and he recomended one of his DMB billet compressor wheels!Bit of an update, bought Martin's a6 a few weeks ago as a non runner, took it apart and the woodrof key on the crankshaft gear has sheared and smashed all the followers. At some point the crank flange/seal housing was changed (common on v6 tdi as it's made of alloy so it's easy to strip the treads when grease monkeys tighten the cambelt tensioner too much) and the bolt has not been renewed and it came off allowing the gear to move on the crank. The bolt was finger tight !
There were worn followers(rocker arms) to the point that it scored the newly fitted genuine cams that the garage replaced at the last rebuild !
Took the hybrid turbo and the race nozzles and fitted to my allroad. Plenty power but heavy shudder and loads of smoke ! However i have started to experience the same power loss issues that Martin was experiencing. Took the turbo off to clear the VNT mechanism (which i thought it was jammed because of soot) and found this:
Can someone tell me what the metal bits are from ? I have never seen anything like this on a v6 tdi engine and i wonder how it got inside the turbo ?
I believe this might be some sort of cone adaptor/heatshield which was fitted inside the hot side to take up the slack left by the clipping of the wheel. I have tried to arrange the jigsaw puzzle but i cannot understand it. Funny thing is that i did not hear any noises when i've removed the turbo first time, i believe it broke in the smallest pieces whilst on my allroad due to the high EGT ! Any suggestions wellcomed !
The turbo needs a rebuild now, don't know if it's worth it as i'll rather fit a GTB2260Vk from Ryan than pay turbo dynamics a pound of flesh to rebuild this crap hybrid. The car was going like a scalded cat though, but very, very smokey ! The race 683 are off the car and will be sent for balancing and raising the pop pressures !
Going to get it fitted on the car today and try tweaking the map a little in the next few days ! If it goes anything like the old hybrid which made my 2 tonne allroad feel like a supercar (!) then i will be well happy- will keep this hybrid on my allroad for a while ! Here's some teasers...
