Audi A4R4 450HP CBEA (CR) Build

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
I have been holding off on starting this thread for a long time now (approx 6 months), mainly because it has been a very long drawn out process on trying to specify the build and become comfortable with the direction it was going. In addition to that, it has also taken a while to become confident that it was actually going to come together, as the last thing I wanted to do was start a big thread with a tall order and not finish. This build is based on TDImeisters "Recipe for the Insane.." thread, and Dave has done countless simulations on his software to refine the set-up and I am very grateful to be working with such brilliant Engineer that is so passionate about TDI's.

There was a lot of discussion related to budget in that thread, and yes, even by scrapping pennies, this is a very expensive build.

Please be patient with the pace of the thread and build. There are a lot of hold ups and such, plus my work is VERY demanding at this point. I have spent an average of 15-25hrs a week on this project for the last 4+ months and this demand will probably get worse, rather than better, and I will choose project work, prior to thread update.

I am also hoping that the club members will be able to offer some additional advice, help, and resources on certain aspects of the build, as I would not define myself as an experienced TDI engine builder.

Project Description:
  • Engine Design Simulations: GT-Suit/TDIMeister

  • 2009 VW 2.0 TDI Common Rail Engine (CBEA) - Bored out to 2.1litre

  • Heavily ported 16V CR Head - Porting and valve work to be fixed from previous work - new vendor to be selected

  • Ferrea Super Alloy Valves and Ferea Springs, Custom Retainers(?)

  • Custom Cams - by Geoff @Colt Cams - this is a maximized lift and duration based on the OEM cam set. The future holds a billet cam design by TDImeister with larger lift

  • OEM 83mm Pistons - CR Mods & Valve Reliefs, Ceramic Coat by Calico

  • OEM Piston Rings

  • TI Wrist Pins - Scitex Trick Titanium

  • Connecting Rods - Supplied by Geir Rosten - Custom Spec

  • Crank Mods - Custom bearing grind - details to come later, BS Drive gear removed, no other mods

  • 2 Stage VNT Turbo System (GTA3776VK & GTB2XXX Hybrid) - both will be using electronic actuator systems

  • VNT Turbo Controller - custom - Design by TDIMeister/myself

  • Exhaust & Intake system - custom

  • Inter-stage Cooler and Post Cooler - custom built

  • Dry Sump Oil System - Parts Purchased from Issam Abbed (INA Engineering), System Design by myself

  • Ladder Style Girdle - 1"plate milled to fit block and doweld to main caps (TDIMeister/TDIsyncro design)

  • Injector Nozzles - Custom

  • CP3 Pump (high pressure pump) - Duramx Pump

  • Sensor Pack - Custom

  • Crank Position Target - Custom


I have probably missed some stuff, but will update as I go
This is a pic of the engine when VWMike had picked it up for me from the wreckers yard in Washington. I had been watching car-part.com for a few months and grabbed this as soon as it showed up. I got it basically for the cost of the balance shaft assembly plus a bit more. The BS assembly (gear driven) will be going into my other Audi/BHW conversion.













The CBEA block and crank face is pretty much identical to any other PD. I was initially a bit concerned about this when I was searching, but after some extensive cross checking on ETKA, my fears were more or less alleviated.





Chassis Specification:

  • Pearl Black 2001 Audi A4Q

  • Custom Coils & Shocks

  • A6 4.2V8 Brakes & hubs

  • 6 Point Cage

  • slightly lightened interior

  • 01E 6 Speed TDI Transmission

  • Several Sets of Rubber and Rims for different events

  • some other very cool stuff, that will come forward as project advances






Not all the detailed Information on this build will be shared until after the build is complete and there are some specific performance goals met both on the dyno and on the track. Once these have been established, remaining detailed information will be filled in on the thread, with exception to the injector/ECU control strategy (which will remain confidential to the tuners for their hard pro-bono work), and the turbo controller, which will be intellectual property of TDimeister and myself.


Resource List:

Recipe for Insane Engine Build
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=254284

Piston Bowl Shaping
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=252336

Compound Turbo Sizing Math
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=208045

Valve Train - Spring Selection Etc
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2039446#post2039446


Special Thanks to Scott Dewitt, for hours of good conversation, guidance, sourcing, and super sweet "at cost" deals for my parts requirements. There will be more details on that part 4-5 months from now, for now its mum! lol




Other Vendors:
I am going to get all the supporting vendors plugs right out front here, and update as the project evolves. I will keep the rest of the thread clean so it does not become tacky.

Note - Vendors will be added to the list as there part of the project matures.


Rods Custom Designed to our Specs and Donated by Geir Rosten




Tuner - Michael Lane (VWMikel , TD Tunning)



Special Support Services (including ECU, harness, sensor package, and other cutting edge knowledge) - TurboJohan




Cam Shaft Work by Geoff @ Colt Cams



Connecting rods by Geir @ Rosten Performance
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
This is one of the more recent sims I have from Dave. You can see that torque rises very quickly, even compared to a small single turbo. This is a result of optimization on turbo selection, and vanes position control and a few other tricks. You will also note we are clipping the torque at around 650n-m (480ft-lb). We are holding this torque flat from 2500 to 3500 rpm. If the cyclinder head breathes better than predicted, we may be able to hold this torque flat higher up in RPM. There are several good reasons to not allow torque to climb above this level. One is torque is directly related to BMEP & PCP. We are sitting about as high as one would want to reasonably go. For an R4 2.0litre engine, you simlpy can not get more torque without getting into a dangerous zone. Thats not to say it cant be tried, but why? Even with my Audi configuration, 480ft-lbs is a lot of torque to put down.
The other thing to note, is that this sim is based on lamba range of 1.2-1.3, and the BHP is shown to peak at around 405HP. This is a very clean smoke free HP! 450HP is reachable by adjusting the lamba down a little bit, and still in mainly smoke free power generation. This makes some of the big 6+ litre trucks putting down 400 smoke filled HP look pretty sad, that includes my own Cummins 5.9, which will get a custom VNT turbo when this project is done.

 
Last edited:

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
I had an idea that you might be the one building this "recipe for insane engine build" and was going to pm you with a guess on that "something crazy, any guesses", that's awesome, I'm definitely subscribed :D. Can't wait for some pictures :).
 

turbo johan

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Really really great project!!
Really curious what it will bring.
Dave is a briljant engineer so you can skip a lot of trail and error.

Are you going to run free programmable ECU or EDC?

Keep it up!!

Johan
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
turbo johan said:
Really really great project!!
Really curious what it will bring.
Dave is a briljant engineer so you can skip a lot of trail and error.

Are you going to run free programmable ECU or EDC?

Keep it up!!

Johan
Standalone systems are quite pricey so we were looking at EDC options. The stock ECU presents some rather large hurdles since EDC17 is relatively new. We haven't exactly been able to confirm the existence of any EDC15/16 ECU with piezo injectors either.
 

turbo johan

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
EDC17 will be so much work for this project.
My choice would be a EDC16C of a BMW 335D.
Commonrail piezo injectors and lots of maps you can use for wastegates and bypass stuff of the compound.

Or a Nira, those are so great!
But like you said really expencive..

Johan
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
turbo johan said:
EDC17 will be so much work for this project.
My choice would be a EDC16C of a BMW 335D.
Commonrail piezo injectors and lots of maps you can use for wastegates and bypass stuff of the compound.

Or a Nira, those are so great!
But like you said really expencive..

Johan
This has been suggested to me, but I haven't been able to find much info on it. Do you have an original file for this ecu?
 

turbo johan

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
No problem.
Please pm me your mail adres.
I have some stock injectors here to i you want to know anything about it.
I think i can get you a ecu if you want.
I've done a 330D E90 a while ago with bigger piezo injectors, bigger ic, dpf remove and sw.
It made 330 hp and 800 Nm.

Johan
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
turbo johan said:
No problem.
Please pm me your mail adres.
I have some stock injectors here to i you want to know anything about it.
I think i can get you a ecu if you want.
I've done a 330D E90 a while ago with bigger piezo injectors, bigger ic, dpf remove and sw.
It made 330 hp and 800 Nm.

Johan
Drop me a line - sales@tdtuning.com
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
TDIsyncro said:
The engine will be very nicely "pickled" for your use. :)

I'm very excited about the project because it brings this kind of power levels to a streetable package.
 

jsrmonster

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Location
Red Lion, PA
TDI
15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
watching, and working on CR franken-ecu in the shadows
subscribed

Jeff :~}
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
TDIMeister said:
The engine will be very nicely "pickled" for your use. :)

I'm very excited about the project because it brings this kind of power levels to a streetable package.

lol Yes. It is very fortunate that the heat was just enough to burn the plastics and non of the metals had damage or evidence of getting to warm.

I will have split out the latest torque/HP diagrams you sent me for one of the place holders above.

It's a very good point Dave. It is very impressive to see the level of torque coming on at such a low RPM, and the boost/fuel/torque is controlled to limit PCP to a max safe level. There really is NO lag.
The high rail pressures available (and variable rail pressure) also give us some good flexability in nozzle sizing for attaining max HP in a clean injection window, yet should be able to maintain decent low power control.

There are probaly a few other diagrams that would be nice share.
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
turbo johan said:
No problem.
Please pm me your mail adres.
I have some stock injectors here to i you want to know anything about it.
I think i can get you a ecu if you want.
I've done a 330D E90 a while ago with bigger piezo injectors, bigger ic, dpf remove and sw.
It made 330 hp and 800 Nm.

Johan
This is very interesting. I understand that the nozzles are DSLA based units. I have them here but have not taken them apart yet, as we had the concept of using the piezo units on the back burner.
Any help is appreciated from you Johan. :)
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
jjordan11 said:
I had an idea that you might be the one building this "recipe for insane engine build" and was going to pm you with a guess on that "something crazy, any guesses", that's awesome, I'm definitely subscribed :D. Can't wait for some pictures :).

good guess then. :D I have dropped some hints here and there and the GTA3776V spare turbos I put up for sale might of helped give something away but the add was not current vary long. Time to update the profile a bit more.
 

turbo johan

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
TDIsyncro said:
This is very interesting. I understand that the nozzles are DSLA based units. I have them here but have not taken them apart yet, as we had the concept of using the piezo units on the back burner.
Any help is appreciated from you Johan. :)
You're welcome ;)
I can measure up some BMW injectors if you want.

Johan
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
VW Polo ASZ
I hate this thread.....
It makes all of us who have been proud of 250hp-ish kind of power look like some stinky shopping lorry*g*
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
87turboquattro said:
boy i forgot how nasty that head first was.:eek: glad i forget things:D
yes, it did look nasty...its a smell thats hard to forget? Sorry about that. lol

Are you ok with some of the before & after porting photos being posted? Actually, do you have any update photos from just before your hand surgery?
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
turbo johan said:
You're welcome ;)
I can measure up some BMW injectors if you want.

Johan
Acutally, that would be of interest. I have my OEM ones all measured up so a comparison would be helpfull.
 

87turboquattro

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2006
Location
sw of boston
TDI
97 passat
TDIsyncro said:
yes, it did look nasty...its a smell thats hard to forget? Sorry about that. lol

Are you ok with some of the before & after porting photos being posted? Actually, do you have any update photos from just before your hand surgery?
surgury went quite well,could feel the tendens twitching all nite,got a whole 1hr of sleep.i'll go to the garage and get you some new ones. go ahead,show how what abottle neck we were dealing w/.and the arguing we had w/ the final exhaust port dimesion.:D computer jockeys you two.:D
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
87turboquattro said:
surgury went quite well,could feel the tendens twitching all nite,got a whole 1hr of sleep.
well, in 6 more weeks you will think you are ready to abuse it again, and then it will be hard to wait the extra 6 more weeks.

87turboquattro said:
i'll go to the garage and get you some new ones. go ahead,show how what abottle neck we were dealing w/.
ok thanks, I look forward to the update pics.

87turboquattro said:
and the arguing we had w/ the final exhaust port dimesion.:D computer jockeys you two.:D
hahaha..yes. I didn't ask for much, did I? The issue we were having is trying to open up the port enough to keep exhaust velocity down. The saving grace was that the post is short, so we can continue the gas expansion in through the flange and with added conical sections at the pipe.

Anybody want to do a proper flow bench of my head? Bill S's man sold off his equipment and ran off with a girl friend or somthing like that.
 

INA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2.5 TDI
I would have waited until it cracked 450hp on the dyno but I guess this is just as good :p:D
 

mrchill

TDIClub Enthusiast, Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vend
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
MASS! home of THE WORLD SERIES CHAMPION RED SOX! x
TDI
96 B4v red \ 98 Mk3 green\98 Mk3 Jetta black\ 99 Mk4 Jetta green x2\ 99 Mk4 Golf silver x2\ 99 Mk4 Jetta black\ 97 B4 sedan green\04 JSW gold\03 JSW silver
I met a fellow who was selling a standalone system for CR diesels when I was at PRI. If you are interested...I'll try to find his card. What is your ultimate goal?
 

TheoSweden

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
TDI
A3Q,A4Q, Passat Biturbo TDI
Wow! Great choise of car I think. I've been running in a A4 -98 tdiQ with the same colour for 4 years. I´m sure you can make it ~200kg lighter, then it will be fast for sure.

Good luck from Sweden!
 
Last edited:
Top