Asked a guru about ULSD, here is what he said.

[tdicruz33]

I know I started that other thread about ULSD.

I work at a Petroleum Inspection Company, I will not give out the name nor the person I talked to. We test every part of the barrel test alot of Bio, ULSD anything on a vessel or a railcar or a 18wheeler we test it.

Take this as .02 cents, when I asked him about ULSD, he said its crap. Their is no lubricity at all in the stuff coming in, and you may not notice it now but down the road you will run into serious problems. Either use Bio or LSD if you can find it. I will get more results for you guys on the actual tests.

 

[20IndigoBlue02]

during further refining to remove the sulfur, you lose lubricity properties.

Ever since ULSD showed up at the pumps, I've been using additives more often (every tank now) that has lubricity additives

 

[tditom]

tdicruz33- I'm not sure I understand your post- do you work in the Petroleum industry? If so, why were you asking us about ULSD use in the other thread?

If you do, then you know about the ASTM lubricity spec that was adopted in 2004. My understanding is that the lubricity additives required to meet the spec are added at the loading rack when the tanker truck is being filled up.

So although it may be true that ULSD comes from the refinery with no lubricity, it is supposed to be added before delivery to the fuel station.

My concern is that the ASTM spec allows a greater wear scar than the Bosch spec (520 vs 460 micron MAX wear scar). But certainly the fuel has some lubricity added to it before it hits the dispensing pump.

What else besides lubricity, in your "guru's" opinion, makes ULSD "crap"?

 

[wny_pat]

I work at a Petroleum Inspection Company, I will not give out the name nor the person I talked to. We test every part of the barrel test alot of Bio, ULSD anything on a vessel or a railcar or a 18wheeler we test it.

Take this as .02 cents, when I asked him about ULSD, he said its crap. Their is no lubricity at all in the stuff coming in, and you may not notice it now but down the road you will run into serious problems.

This following thread would seem to disagree with what you claim:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=155182. The test results done by Southwest Research show more than adequate lubricity in untreated ULSD from 3 major suppliers. It would be interesting to see the actual results you claim compared to the results listed in above link.

 

[tditom]

I dunno about "more than adequate", Pat. That first sample of Amoco ULSD was at 448, which is barely adequate according to Bosch.

 

[Turbosprezarka]

Just my $.02. I'm no expert but this is what I've heard. Back at TDIFest 2006, they had a guest speaker from Exxon I believe? (Help me out here guys...) He specifically talked about ULSD, stating that there are older methods that removed a lot of lubricity in the process of making ULSD. Since there are newer methods which are a lot better, and to make up for any lost lubricity, additives are put into the fuel.

In either case, I would strongly suggest people should use a fuel additive year round anyways. It won't get you better mileage, but it will boost lubricity.

A good compromise might be to use a bio-blend. Theres a station not to far from me that has B20 (i'm guessing the other 80 must be ULSD). Several studies though have shown that fuels with Bxx quanities as low as B1, SIGNIFICANTLY increase lubricity. VW only warrants the use of B5, which is partially why I haven't gone above B20.

 

[wny_pat]

I was refering to the "more than adequate" per ASTM specs. Two additives I know of will bring it to where Bosch wants it for our pumps,

 

[tdicruz33]

This is a sample for some retail ULSD, I am not an expert nor do I know anything about these numbers. I am just here to help if you guys have questions for me to ask I will.
.I work at this company I am in IT, I will talk with him later about specifics. We test a assload of ULSD and Bio.

 

[BKmetz]

The speakers at the Philly fest were from BP. They flew in from the Chicago HQ.

Even though the problems with removing sulfur and poor lubricity have been very well documented since 1995 (in North America, even earlier in Europe), and there are now ASTM standards for lubricity, refiners are not all using the same technology or care in making ULSD. So we have to be careful in this time frame of transition.

As back in 1994, eventually the refiners will get the desulfurization process tuned where low lubricity will not be an issue. But who knows how long this will take and how many of us will suffer pump seal leaks in the interim.

 

[tditom]

...eventually the refiners will get the desulfurization process tuned where low lubricity will not be an issue. But who knows how long this will take and how many of us will suffer pump seal leaks in the interim.

Brian, are you saying that low lubricity and seal leaks are connected? I thought they were two separate issues.

 

[BKmetz]

The issues of low lubricity and seals failures are somewhat related. One can suffer one, the other, or both problems.

Aromatics are the part of the fuel that effects the pump seals. Aromatics are also what has the high BTUs and gives fuel its lubricity. And unfortunately, aromatics are the part of the fuel where most of the sulfur hangs out. Removing the sulfur breaks up the large aromatic rings and we have lower BTUs, lower lubricity, and sometimes we suffer seal failures (only VE rotary pumps, not in-line VP, common-rail, or PD pumps.

The way it was explained to me: If a new injection pump starts out on a low sulfur fuel then the seals are not affected. When a pump is run on a certain fuel for a long time, and the fuel composition is changed, the condition of the seals can change.

When TDIs first hit the North American market in 1996, there was a lot of fear that owners would suffer seal leaks. It never happened. The guys who suffered seal leaks were running the older IDI diesels and went through the fuel transition in 1994/95. A lot of those older IDIs never did suffer any seal leaks. It was hit & miss.

We are now in another fuel transition period. The PD guys don't have to worry because their cars were not run on LSD long enough and the PD engine technology doesn't use VE rotary pumps. All of us who own pre-PD TDIs will have to pay attention. Our cars use rotary pumps and we have used LSD long enough for our pump seals to be affected.

From what I understand, any fuel additive that claims to improve lubricity will prevent seal failures. Most of us here dose our fuel with something so we should be OK.

Here is something else. Supposedly all Bosch rotary pumps have been using Viton seals which are not effected by aromatics in the fuel. But there have been reports of older TDIs, mostly A3/B4s, that have had pump seals starting to leak. When one looks at a pump seal there is no way to know what it is made out of. So I preach caution and use an additive.

 

[jvc]

Quote "When I asked him about ULSD, he said its crap".

He certainly sounds like a well educated scientist - I'm convinced.

JohnC

 

[Drivbiwire]

I am back to using Power Service in both my cars (2-3oz per tank)...

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...

BK hows the search for a new car? Putting the Benz to work these days?

DB

 

[P2B]

I have always used Power Service in my A3s, and will continue to do so. It was recommended to me years ago, and I seem to recall observing smoother running and slightly improved economy when I began using it. Now it's just habit.

I won't be surprised if my injection pump develops a leak - after all it is 8+ years and 200+ K old, and is also being asked to deal with a fuel change.

Are there any statistics on the percentage of IDI pumps which suffered leaks during the 94/95 transition?

Is there any evidence to suggest Power Service or similar additives reduced the incidence of leaks during the 94/95 transition?

Simon

 

[kpaske]

We are now in another fuel transition period. The PD guys don't have to worry because their cars were not run on LSD long enough and the PD engine technology doesn't use VE rotary pumps. All of us who own pre-PD TDIs will have to pay attention. Our cars use rotary pumps and we have used LSD long enough for our pump seals to be affected.

I still have yet to see a tank of ULSD in my PD and I'm on at least tank #10. How long do you think you would need to run LSD prior to switching to ULSD for it degrade the seals, or is this simply not an issue with PD pumps?

Of those who are using additives, have you also tried biodiesel? I wonder how running B5 or B20 with ULSD would compare to straight ULSD with an additive. Once I find a good supplier I plan to run at least B5 - am I going to need fuel additives in addition?

 

[BKmetz]

How long do you think you would need to run LSD prior to switching to ULSD for it degrade the seals, or is this simply not an issue with PD pumps?

As far as I know there are no seals in a PD system, but I have not spent any time around PDs either. The A3/B4s that have had sporadic seal leaks are 8 to 10 years old. At that age it's impossible to determine if the seal leaks are fuel related, age related, or both.

 

[FredIA]

I'm thinking of using the local Coop's B2 instead of the Wally World (Murphy) D2 (that I always add PS to) that I normally get because of this lubricity issue. (Even though the pumps here in IA still say LSD, I think they are supplying ULSD due to reduced smoke).

I'm wondering, though how well B2 holds up in 0-10*F or colder weather? We are in the teens here already. I was going to switch over to B2 in the spring, but may do it earlier if it's not going to cause issues.

I've heard at least rumors that the MN guys have had problems with the mandated B2 in the really cold months.

Fred

 

[wjdell]

If youy have acess to good B2 it would be the fuel to use. I would still consider a good additve.

As far as the fuel being crap it always has been its just cleaner now. 46 CETANE is nice would not take much boost to hit 49 min. Lubricity is easy to solve. I do believe the energy content is less. But change is here and all we can do is make the best. ULSD will be good for all in the end, MO.

 

[Kenbob]

Boy, history is funny. 5 or 6 years ago, the predominant theme on this site was "our crappy fuel" or "the rotgut" we get here. "If only we had the great ultra-low sufphur diesel they had in Europe, we'd get some of the high performance engines." Now we finally have the same fuel and everyone is griping about it. The diesel engines in Europe have been running on ultra-low sulphur for years and they don't explode prematurely. I'm not a petroleum engineer, but I would venture a guess that the sulphur reduction method used at US refineries is remarkably similar to that used in Europe.

 

[wny_pat]

but I would venture a guess that the sulphur reduction method used at US refineries is remarkably similar to that used in Europe.

I would venture to guess that the sulphur reduction method used at US refineries is different than that used in Europe. I would go a step further and venture to say the diesel fuel in Europe is a higher quality and cleaner fuel than what we see here in the U.S. And I believe they are still at 50 ppm Sulfur content.

 

[tditom]

...I'm wondering, though how well B2 holds up in 0-10*F or colder weather? We are in the teens here already. I was going to switch over to B2 in the spring, but may do it earlier if it's not going to cause issues.

I've heard at least rumors that the MN guys have had problems with the mandated B2 in the really cold months.

Fred

If the B2 is quality stuff, you will have no issues with any temperature. I've been using B20 in Michigan for the last 4 years with no problems.

 

[wjdell]

I hear so often that the fuel is so much better overseas. Why is this, because they pay more for it. Is it because the govt regulates the fuel coming into Europe. Is it because the consumer demands it, why does anyone really know. If it is the price paid is it really twice as good as our fuel.

 

[Bob_Fout]

I hear so often that the fuel is so much better overseas. Why is this, because they pay more for it. Is it because the govt regulates the fuel coming into Europe. Is it because the consumer demands it, why does anyone really know. If it is the price paid is it really twice as good as our fuel.

The FUEL is the same or cheaper. Then throw in taxes....

Diesel is more popular in Europe for passenger vehicles. In the US it's for trucks and bulk transport vehicles.

 

[wjdell]

The success of this country is in its transportation of goods. A bene of the cold war. We should have the best fuel in the world then.

 

[golftdibrad]

This is a sample for some retail ULSD, I am not an expert nor do I know anything about these numbers. I am just here to help if you guys have questions for me to ask I will.
.I work at this company I am in IT, I will talk with him later about specifics. We test a assload of ULSD and Bio.

must....have...units....
good find though!

 

[AutoDiesel]

I know I started that other thread about ULSD.

I work at a Petroleum Inspection Company, I will not give out the name nor the person I talked to. We test every part of the barrel test alot of Bio, ULSD anything on a vessel or a railcar or a 18wheeler we test it.

Take this as .02 cents, when I asked him about ULSD, he said its crap. Their is no lubricity at all in the stuff coming in, and you may not notice it now but down the road you will run into serious problems. Either use Bio or LSD if you can find it. I will get more results for you guys on the actual tests.

"Stuff" coming in from where?
If it is coming straight from the refinery it is to be
expected. The distributor/sellor will be required to
add lubricity additives to match their own formula
that the want to sell at the pump to meet ASTM D975
lubricity standards.

We've had ULSD for fleets up here in the Northwest for
going on 6 years now and the people I've talked to stated
the lubricity problems have been worked out.

http://driversmag.com/ar/fleet_ultra_low_impact/
Ultra Low Impact

Fleet experience seems to back that up. David Kerrigan, fleet services director for the City of Seattle, says: “We've been using ULSD since July 2001 and we haven't had any trouble with it.” Seattle powers 400 over-the-road vehicles with ULSD, including dump trucks, fire & rescue equipment, and utility vehicles.

“Originally, getting the fuel at the right spec was a problem, but since that was resolved, ULSD has performed just like regular diesel,” Kerrigan adds. “It's been transparent to us as users — ULSD ends up performing just like our old diesel. And that's all we care about.”

As far as cost goes, Kerrigan points out that Seattle used to pay 8¢-10¢ more per gallon for ULSD, as more fleets have switched to the new fuel, that premium has dropped to only 5¢.

Many more quotes from other areas in that article.
A article from 2003 I might add.

I've been using either Powerservice or Redline 85 Plus (standard
or winterized) for a long time now and with the switch to ULSD
don't expect any problems and haven't seen anything to get
worried about.

 

[Bob_Fout]

The success of this country is in its transportation of goods. A bene of the cold war. We should have the best fuel in the world then.

The fuel we had/have is perfectly fine for trucks and trains. That was my point.

 

[dr_p]

Just a little food for thought, there is nothing meant by this post other than information,

1. European diesel is different, and better. 10ppm sulfur content (different)

2. A mandated minimum 49 cetane.(better)
(off road limits are 50ppm, however legislated to change in 2007 that ALL diesel be 10ppm, commomly known as sulfur free)
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/fuel.html

So 15ppm ULSD and 46 cetane is still not 'the same' fuel they get in Europe, but as mentioned earlier, they do pay more.
________
Honda SA50

 

[kpaske]

The success of this country is in its transportation of goods. A bene of the cold war. We should have the best fuel in the world then.

Maybe part of our success can be attributed to the fact that we get huge supplies of some of the cheapest fuel in the world.

 

[hank miller]

The problems in MN last winter were from incompletely reacted biodiesel. Too much glycerin because someone didn't think quality control was a good idea...

Make sure your biodiesel is high quality and you won't have a problem. Demand BQ-9000 labels on any biopumps - it is sort of like being UL certified, there might be good stuff without it, but if it doesn't have the BQ-9000 certification you better have your own personal lab to check the quality with.