Anyone know where I can get a geared BS conversion done at?

ScooterPete

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Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon TDI
I live in Texas but am considering doing a geared balance shaft over a delete since I do not have the special tools for either job and would like it if all my rubber components alive a little longer. I do not know if Oilhammer is still doing the retrofits. More insight would be greatly appreciated.
 

Mozambiquer

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I do deletes in my shop in Sunrise Beach Missouri, I'll have to check and see if I can get the geared bsm conversion parts, as they were hard to get. Pretty sure I saw Cascade German had some though.
You can message me or my business page Anchor Motorworks www.anchormotorworks.com
And I can check into that and give you a quote.
Pretty sure Oilhammer still does them too.
Edit: cascade German is sold out, but I did find a supplier with some that would have to come from Europe.
 
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Lug_Nut

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Scooter, concerned enough to inquire about the geared (or delete) swap, but OK with letting the chain tensioners remain until "sometime this year"?!?
That schedule of your's isn't going to entice some installer to buy a geared kit on the off-chance you might, just maybe, decide your car needs a broken tensioner replaced tomorrow. The kits are scarcer now, have a lead time, and you'd be down until a kit were obtained, that is IF you were able to shut down before more carnage (loss of drive for the oil pump) takes place when a failed tensioner lets the resulting chain slap break the chain.

Cant, in my case, my concern was the potential of increased NVH without the counterbalancers. Other's ranking of their own level of importance might be different. A delete may be justifiable to them. Labor is a big portion of the task either chain to gear, or chain to delete. The cost for my geared conversion wasn't so much more that I was willing to pay to retain the characteristics I had.
 

PickleRick

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87 4 runner BHW swap, 2011 A3 tdi, several b5.5 bhw's.
I think someone people are just more sensitive to the vibrations than others. Then there are people who can live in a home where a smoke alarm beeps every 30 seconds and it never bother them.

I don't find the idle in our 2011 Audi A3 TDI to be significantly smoother than the deleted BHW in my Toyota with solid mounts.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I haven't seen any geared conversion kits available for years. Maybe someone has new old stock or you can find one overseas, but that kit has been NLA from dealers for some time.
 

CantWrite

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2005 Passat Wagon (BHW/5-spd conv, 03T). I keep in touch with the (2) ALH's I sold.
Thanks for the responses. I must be one of those sensitive people as I have put in new OEM mounts, set the snub mount twice and am still annoyed by the vibes at idle. The “buzziness” at 2k annoys me enough that I make sure to try and keep my tach at 2200 or higher in most cases.

when I finally get around to working with a tuner I plan to raise my idle to 1000 or 1025.

my two mk4 ALH’s never bothered me at all.
 

d24tdi

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The balance shafts are for canceling vibes at high rpm when reciprocating forces are greatest, not idle speed....

From what I can tell at least, idle vibes come down to motor mount stiffness and stress. The B platform longitudinal cars are more susceptible to 4-cylinder idle vibration than the transverse cars with pendulum mount system (Mk4 onward). Manual trans seems to help with those longitudinal idle vibes vs an automatic idling in gear, but I've never sat in a BHW car that didn't have at least a little buzz in the interior at idle. You can get it way down, but at least with everything I've ever tried, you can't fully eliminate it to where you can't feel it at all, like you can in an ALH car for example. Part of the experience I guess. :p

Where you'll notice the balance shafts make a difference is 3k rpm and above. Not a place most BHW owners spend a lot of time. This is my experience with my cars at least. I have a B5.5 wagon and a B5.5 sedan, both 5spd swapped (DUK trans) and both with solid flywheels. The sedan unfortunately has solid 1.8t motor mounts that I keep meaning to replace but haven't yet (from PO), and also has a heavier Whitbread flywheel, but otherwise they are a direct comparison. The sedan has a gear driven BSM and the wagon is BS deleted. The wagon WITHOUT balance shafts idles with less buzz than the sedan, since it has softer hydraulic diesel motor mounts, but the sedan has no drone or buzz at 4000 rpm, whereas I can just barely tell that the wagon has some thrash from the engine at that speed. But the difference is very subtle and again only when you have the engine spun way beyond it's normal operating zone. Not enough IMO to be worth the extra expense of the geared setup, if you can even find it at all. And the geared setup does still retain at least one potential failure point as well (hex shaft) which the delete eliminates.

Both Passats are equally smooth in the 1500-3k range where most engine operation occurs. No difference I can feel.

I think on some flywheel/clutch combos there is vibration transmitted through the trans mounts and axles below around 2k rpm if the clutch doesn't have enough spring in the disc (or a DMF). That could be a place to look for those with vibration reaching annoying levels. Seems like that is most pronounced on the AWD swaps some folks have done. Auto trans BHW cars seem like they are sensitive to axle and CV joint condition for idle vibes too. For whatever that all is worth.
 

CantWrite

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2005 Passat Wagon (BHW/5-spd conv, 03T). I keep in touch with the (2) ALH's I sold.
@d24tdi lots of great info there!!

I have an EEN trans. OEM mounts less than 10k ago. The new mounts helped my idle vibes. But if I raise them to 1k, they almost completely go away. Since my car doesn’t idle much, I plan to raise them.

At what rpms do your (2) B5.5’s idle?

My 2k buzziness is under hard load, which based on your experience, makes me think it’s a tune or flywheel issue.

thank you so much for your post and experience as it gives me a lot to reference and work with.

Smooth operation between 1500-3k would be great. Also want some higher rpm power as our Mtn driving has short passing lanes.
 

Lug_Nut

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The balance shafts are for canceling vibes at high rpm when reciprocating forces are greatest, not idle speed....
I disagree. Apparently the designers do as well. The balance shafts were installed in the automatic transmission equipped cars, not the manuals from which the 'delete kits' come. When stopped in traffic, the load from the engine working against the transmission torque converter in drive, and the increased fueling to hold idle speed was enough to cause a vibration in a vertical axis. That was deemed to be unacceptable in a car intended for a more upscale market.
Manual transmission versions, stopped with the clutch pedal pressed, less load on the engine, revved up to a higher rotation rate and using the clutch at the start-off, were not.

Bear in mind that the combustion force pushing the piston down is also applying the same force pushing the head up. The head is then trying to pull the block up. <edit addition>The 2.0 BHW pistons are far heavier than the 1.9 ALH. The ratio of piston mass to block mass is different. A heavier piston and a lighter (comparatively, by percent of the total) block mass make the block move up and down more as the piston moves down and up.
Also the 4 cylinder 4 stroke firing order is 1-3-4-2, or starting from a different point, 3-4 and then 2-1. The two power pulses at the 'back' of the engine followed by two at the 'front' make the block prone to a 'rocking horse' movement at 1/2 the rpm. That slower oscillation is far more detectable than a more rapid one. <end edit>

Swap the auto-only (US market) B5.5 TDI to a manual? Do a delete.
Keep the slushbox? Geared.
 
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d24tdi

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@Lug_Nut - I can see where you're coming from with your points on the product planning decisions VW made and how they chose to spend their resources. But on the function of counterrotating balance shafts in inline-4 engines, it's not a matter of whether we agree or not, it's the facts of the engineering principle. No need to take my word for it -- read a few SAE papers or Mitsubishi's old patents from the '70s.

You're completely right that the significantly greater piston mass in the BHW is an important factor, but the vibration that the BS system is intended to address is the vibration/buzz/drone that those heavy pistons cause near the top of the RPM range, not at idle speed. The greater acceleration forces of those heavy pistons at 4k rpm and beyond are what caused concern that they sought to address with balance shafts. Or I guess I'm speculating there on what they "sought" to address, but in any case those vibrations are what the shafts CAN address. My recollection from engineering days is that these are what they call "second order" vibrations, occurring in the vertical plane.

The "first order" vibrations like the low frequency idle shake/rock you're referring to can only be addressed by crankshaft counterweighting. The relatively lower inertia balance shafts can't get that much motion going at idle rpm to counteract the pistons, rods, and crank weights flailing around. Their effectiveness only comes into play at elevated speeds. At idle they're more or less just sitting down there spinning at a speed where they don't have much impact. And a lot of the vibration at idle is from the low frequency of power pulses and torsionals that arise from that. Part of why a 90deg V6, or an inline 5, which are also inherently imbalanced and prone to bad vibration harmonics at high RPM, nonetheless "feel" smoother at idle than even a balance shaft equipped 4-cylinder. 4-cylinder engines, especially diesels, have a far more severe variation in crankshaft torque output at idle due to the infrequent power pulses. Dual mass flywheels or heavy flywheels try to counteract that. The only extent to which I suppose the balance shafts could aid smoothness of operation at idle speed is simply the rotational inertia they add to the engine. In that sense they might help dampen the cyclic torque swings like a flywheel does.

Now I'll speculate on the marketing decisions: I think VW knew that the nature of the powertrain mounting in the longitudinal cars was naturally more likely to lead to objectionable levels of vibration and they simply wanted to do all they could to limit it. I doubt it was a manual vs automatic question. They had the same concern regarding the '98 B5 Passat which was supposed to reach the US market with a 1.9L TDI and a 5-speed (got EPA cert for them and two of them actually did get legally sold). The reason I understand that model was pulled at the last minute was NVH concerns. That was a manual-trans model with lighter pistons and no balance shafts. By the logic of the automatic trans being the determining factor, it should have been considered acceptable, but it wasn't. The transverse Mk4 cars using a different mounting system do a better job of isolating 4-cylinder vibes. Even the gas 1.8T equipped B5 Passat cars transmit noticeable idle vibrations, with much lighter gasoline engine pistons and rods. My guess is that when they decided to release the BHW cars here, they did the best they could with the idle shake using hydraulic mounts but still wanted the balance shafts to deal with high RPM drone/buzz in their upmarket model diesel car that also had more displacement and heavier pistons than the other cars did. But who knows.
 

d24tdi

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I'm happy to be corrected on the above if you know that in fact VW had an unconventional approach with balance shafts that targeted idle shake on the BHW rather than high rpm buzz, but to the best of my recollection the engineering concepts are pretty well settled on the dynamics questions and what kind of vibrations they can be effective for.

I'll also give a couple other points of context: our only gasoline vehicle in regular use here is a 1999 Accord with the F23 4-cylinder engine that we have had since it was almost new. That car went in last summer for its third timing belt service at 240,000 miles to a local Honda specialist. When he started taking it apart, he called me to report that we had dodged a bullet: he found that the balance shaft timing belt (separate from main timing belt on that engine) sitting inside the timing cover, snapped. Luckily the balance shaft belt had stayed clear of the cam timing belt when it broke, and as a result the engine had not suffered any other damage. Turned out the spring from the lip seal for the balance shaft had come free and jammed in the balance shaft outer bearing, seizing the shaft and shearing the belt. Longer story on what that entire repair ultimately involved, but in the end the car went back on the road with the balance shafts spinning again, after we had apparently driven it with the balance shafts inoperative for a long time, maybe years.

With the balance shafts in the Honda reactivated, we noticed NO difference in the idle quality, which on this car (like all older 4-cylinder Hondas I have ever driven) has always included a little bit of dash shake, especially when the A/C is on. But climbing a mountain pass with the trans kicked down at 4000-6000 rpm, the car was far quieter and smoother than it had been. We had become used to how it felt without the balance shafts, not realizing they were disabled. With the shafts back in action the difference was obvious but only when you had the revs up.

Just my understanding and experience, but figure it's worth sharing for the sake of the OP here in case his goal in spending significant extra effort and time tracking down and installing a geared BSM is to address idle shake, where I doubt it can help him much.
 

d24tdi

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@d24tdi lots of great info there!!

I have an EEN trans. OEM mounts less than 10k ago. The new mounts helped my idle vibes. But if I raise them to 1k, they almost completely go away. Since my car doesn’t idle much, I plan to raise them.

At what rpms do your (2) B5.5’s idle?

My 2k buzziness is under hard load, which based on your experience, makes me think it’s a tune or flywheel issue.

thank you so much for your post and experience as it gives me a lot to reference and work with.

Smooth operation between 1500-3k would be great. Also want some higher rpm power as our Mtn driving has short passing lanes.
Mine both idle at the factory ~800 rpm. I too have thought a few times it would be nice to elevate the idle speed a little, especially on my BHW sedan which has the gear driven BSM but sets the entire interior rattling at stoplights particularly on cold days when the motor mounts are stiff. Even raising it to 900 or so clears it up on my car, and that's the speed where many of the older 1.9 TDI engines idle. If you find that works for you, I will be interested to hear about it. :)

Have you looked at your transmission mounts? A few folks seem to have found that those can be a source of idle vibration too. You mentioned recent new mounts, not sure if you just meant motor mounts and snub there or trans mounts too.

Buzz under load for sure would be a function of vibration transmitted through mounts and/or torsionals through the drivetrain (flywheel, clutch, axles presumably being the variables there). The crank/rods/pistons make the same motions and dynamics spinning at 2k rpm regardless of what the engine load is..... That's not something internal balancing of the rotating assembly or presence/absence of balance shafts could affect, as far as I can think about it at least.

I didn't necessarily say my BHW cars are both "smooth" from 1500-3000.... In both of them it's not at all offensive but you don't forget you're driving a diesel 4-cylinder, I wouldn't mistake them for the gas hog V8 in my Ford pickup for instance, where you feel nothing at all no matter how hard the engine is working. I was just saying that the two BHW cars are about equally smooth to each other. :p If you stick the pedal to the floor and run under heavy load you can feel vibration in the car in both. But light load operation in the non-shafted wagon above 3k keeps a buzz going, not bothersome to me at least, but you can tell it's there even with a good set of diesel mounts in that car that is fairly smooth at idle. In the sedan with gear driven BSM, light or no load above 3k rpm is butter smooth, even with the stiff gasser motor mounts that shake at idle. That's my report!
 

zzdiesel

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05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
When I changed from the single mass flywheel to a dual mass one the vibrations were noticeably much less. Both at idle and the 1900ish rpms. I didn't change for the vibrations but for the synchros which the single mass proved to destroy.

The reduced vibes were a plus. EEN tranny.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
As someone who has experienced more BHWs than most, and also bought one brand new, I can assure you that they absolutely make a noticeable difference in the engine smoothness at ALL times. The RPMs are not a key factor, as it all spins in time, but is certainly most noticeable in gear at idle.

Manual conversions don't matter. Completely different situation. Not comparable. Transplants of the engine in other cars, completely different situation. Not comparable.

The longitudinal VAG cars have a specific deal happening with them. The later cars changed a lot of things, one of which is disengaging the transmission torque from the engine at a stand still (my 4 cyl Sprinter also did this). But the ZF 5HP19FL behind the BHW wasn't that sophisticated. The 4 cyl gas engines had the same issue.... and once they hit 2.0L, they also got balance shafts... the V6 also had a single balance shaft (NVH transfer on a V6 is different than an I4, but the end goal is the same).

It is a shame we never got to experience the later longitudinal cars with an I4 diesel. I think it would be a nice package. Because the gassers are stellar, one of the very nicest to drive cars IMHO... just that the stupid EA888 engine is such a liability.
 

CantWrite

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2005 Passat Wagon (BHW/5-spd conv, 03T). I keep in touch with the (2) ALH's I sold.
As someone who has experienced more BHWs than most, and also bought one brand new, I can assure you that they absolutely make a noticeable difference in the engine smoothness at ALL times. The RPMs are not a key factor, as it all spins in time, but is certainly most noticeable in gear at idle.
OH, I assume are you referring to Balance Shafts.

If you plan to keep the car forever, and if money and parts availability were no issue, would you choose to delete or install a geared BSM? Thanks!!

oh mine is 5-spd swapped.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Again, if it is no longer bolted to the ZF slushbox, then you can (and probably should) do what VAG did, and turn your BHW into a BGW. Which is the same engine, sans balance shafts, bolted to a manual transmission via a DMF style clutch assembly.
 

ScooterPete

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Texas
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OH, I assume are you referring to Balance Shafts.

If you plan to keep the car forever, and if money and parts availability were no issue, would you choose to delete or install a geared BSM? Thanks!!

oh mine is 5-spd swapped.
I swapped mine to a FHN from frans a while back and now that I know a BS assembly was for the auto ill delete it. I didnt realize it was to replace a flywheel.
 

zzdiesel

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sask. mostly now Wa.
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05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
Oilhammers key to vibrations was a DMF in the manual tranny.
 

caffeine

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03 Allroad w/04 BHW/02X conversion, 00 ALH Jetta
I think someone people are just more sensitive to the vibrations than others. Then there are people who can live in a home where a smoke alarm beeps every 30 seconds and it never bother them.

I don't find the idle in our 2011 Audi A3 TDI to be significantly smoother than the deleted BHW in my Toyota with solid mounts.
I have a friend with a '13 TDI A3 and my Allroad BHW w/stock hydraulic mounts is more smooth/quiet than his. I thought it would be the opposite but no.
 

PickleRick

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87 4 runner BHW swap, 2011 A3 tdi, several b5.5 bhw's.
I have a friend with a '13 TDI A3 and my Allroad BHW w/stock hydraulic mounts is more smooth/quiet than his. I thought it would be the opposite but no.
I wouldn't bet money on this but I'm 90% sure our '11 has both a DMF and a balance shaft. Honestly I hope I don't need to spend much time under the hood of it. The DPF at 80k has me concerned. Thinking about making a down pipe to replace it and having it tuned out, I've not talked to any of the tuners north of the border since all this tarrif talk began but I'm hoping it doesn't mean an insane price hike to send an ECU back and forth
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Once again, the Audi A3's CBEA is mounted transversely, bolted to a DSG. It isn't at all the same as the BHW+ZF. It also has a MUCH more sophisticated fuel system, that can do all kinds of amazing things with injection timing, frequency, etc. because the CR system is no longer mechanically tethered to a timing window of either an injection pump (VE) or cam-driven unit injectors (PD).
 

PickleRick

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87 4 runner BHW swap, 2011 A3 tdi, several b5.5 bhw's.
Once again, the Audi A3's CBEA is mounted transversely, bolted to a DSG. It isn't at all the same as the BHW+ZF. It also has a MUCH more sophisticated fuel system, that can do all kinds of amazing things with injection timing, frequency, etc. because the CR system is no longer mechanically tethered to a timing window of either an injection pump (VE) or cam-driven unit injectors (PD).
I realize this, with such a sophisticated I engine in a sport luxury model like an Audi, I just figured the engine would be smoother at idle than my BS deleted BHW with solid mounts. The Toyota 3.4 flywheel is obviously single mass as well.

I can't tell differences at highway speeds thanks to the 10 Ply mud terrains and lifted torsion bar/rear leaf spring suspension.
 

MrRobogoat

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Jan 17, 2024
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2004 Passat TDI Wagon, 2005 Passat TDI Wagon
I actually have a spare geared BSM, and this thread has me thinking about hanging onto it. :p

With both manual swapped BHWs I've driven, neither felt like they needed the BSM. But there are occasions where I feel like it would be nice, if that makes sense. It would definitely not be worth undoing the delete by itself, but if I was pulling or swapping the engine for another reason, I would put the geared BSM in since I have it, (not that I hope that happens anytime soon at all).
 

CantWrite

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2005 Passat Wagon (BHW/5-spd conv, 03T). I keep in touch with the (2) ALH's I sold.
I plan to follow oilhammers advice and just make my BHW into a BGW. So I’ll do the delete and the DMF.

My TB is due in 3k. The person who manual swapped this changed the guides and the chain at 150k. Not sure why he didn’t delete it then.
 
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