Anyone else being short changed on Mileage?

da_jokker

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This is sort of a double post, but I wanted to put it under it's own title\thread to see if others have been short changed by VW for their mileage when they did the buyback.

So these would be for those who have actually done the buyback and after the "mileage" got a different amount than what the court docs stated (for me it was attachment 2b for Jetta)



... I added the below to post http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5246127#post5246127


Just thought I would mention I'm on the phone right now because I also actually got short changed on the mileage adjustment. The legal chart shows I fell in the +$300 range, however VW only gave me $250... they are claiming that the chart is just a "guide\estimate"

Right now, I'm on hold because I asked if they could tell me where in the court documents it was claimed that Attachment 2B was an estimate?

If they short everyone $50... well that is a lot of savings...



.... Post back... so when the person came back to the line, she basically said this...

"So in the next couple of days, you should be getting an e-mail from JP Morgan to top off the balance"...

I then clarified... "So I have already gotten 2 from them. The first was for my half. The second was for the second half (I had paid off the loan during this process)... and you are saying I am going to get a 3rd for the missing $50"...

To which she said "yes".


I think they are lying but I guess we'll see. Ironic how they were all willing to keep the extra $50 until I asked "prove it to me".
 

PacCoastFwy923

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Nope, not in my case. Not sure if you want everyone to respond or just those who were shortchanged? I may have read an account here from one other person in a situation similar to yours, but they may have been a 2015 in which case the valuation tables (not the mileage tables) WERE only an estimation.

Maybe set up a poll? I was really surprised to read your account in the other thread because the buyback values have proven to be reliably spot on, with reported discrepancies due to incorrect calculations that jumped a whole bracket, not just $50.
 

da_jokker

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Are you sure you're being shortchanged on the mileage and not some other factor (e.g., region)?

When I spoke to them a month ago and went on record protesting the total buy back amount, they broke downe the numbers and the mileage was 250. At that time I asked where the 250 came from because there wasn't a mileage bracket anywhere close to mine that even had 250 as a number.

We had ended that conversation with them redirecting me to the FAQS on how to protest the price.

And yeah, I was primarily just curious if anybody else was fed the bs line of "mileage estimate" because I'm pretty sure that chart is the final word.
 

chief poncho

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da_joker, please post what year and model you had, options, month turned-in and mileage at turn-in and I can tell you what your exact offer should have been.
 

da_jokker

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2009 jetta tdi ... no extras...northern California...actual mileage was 101400 (I think)..adjusted was 83k-84k.

Total should have been 13,350 and they gave me 13,oh..trade in feb. Pretty confident in my calc. I even started the post about how to do your calculations :)
 
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PacCoastFwy923

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And you're the original owner, in Ca the whole time?
 

j2112morris

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I was with one of the early buy backs. I inputed my mileage into the website that projected my car to have near 97,000 miles. I parked my car with 94,700 and was delivered to the dealer with less than 94,800. My payout was based on mileage of 95000-100000. I was shorted about $100 but, in the grand scheme of things, wrote it off after a couple of times to recoup it. It was not worth the hassle to me as I consider Dieselgate a farce anyway.

Drive safe.
 

bmwM5power

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I was with one of the early buy backs. I inputed my mileage into the website that projected my car to have near 97,000 miles. I parked my car with 94,700 and was delivered to the dealer with less than 94,800. My payout was based on mileage of 95000-100000. I was shorted about $100 but, in the grand scheme of things, wrote it off after a couple of times to recoup it. It was not worth the hassle to me as I consider Dieselgate a farce anyway.

Drive safe.
same with me, my payout was $321 less then the offer, did not drive the car since submitted everything, I was able to register with the claims portal with different email, put the VIN through again this time with the higher mileage than the actual at turn in was and still got the same final offer number. Not sure where the difference is coming from
 

da_jokker

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All... now that I'm on a computer.. I can break it all down...

2009 Jetta (no add on's), Northern California...

My Calculations when the court approval first went through...


Car "clean-trade in" $7950 <-- Straight out of the Nada Guide for Sep 2015
Restitution $5100 <-- My Calc was less so I fell into the "MIN $5100)
Mileage $0 <-- *

Total: $13050

* I was currently in the $0 mileage bracket based on the Court Document "Attachment 2B: Beetle and Jetta). I just so happen to put on my car 1038 miles per month as a work commute so I was literally breaking even with the allotment no matter how many months out I went.



Official Offer Letter...

Vehicle Return Amount $7950
Restitution $5100
Mileage $ (they leave this OFF the offer letter as TBD)

Total: $13050 <-- Good so far



Actual "Transaction Receipt" that was supposed to be adjusted for my actual turn in mileage (which was lower because I parked the car for 2 months while waiting for my appointment)

Vehicle Return Amount $8200 <-- See what they did here.. they hide sh*t (7950 + 250)
Restitution $5100
Mileage $ (they leave this OFF the Final Receipt)

Total: $13300 <-- So the mileage is now built into the "VRA" but where did the $50 go???


And now for the only missing facts...

1) My trade in date was Feb 2017
2) My Official Adjusted mileage was a tade over 82K.


What the numbers are supposed to look like without VW trying to rip me off one last time...

Vehicle Return Amount $7950
Restitution $5100
Mileage $ 300 (again, I officially fell into the 80k-85k range)

Total: $13350



When I spoke to the reps a month ago and went over the numbers, I was specifically told that they gave me $250 for the mileage. When I asked where they got the $250 from they couldn't really say.. "We are just the reps, you'll have to file in paper per our FAQs".

Not wanting to take any chances, I waited until the full amount (well the $13300) was actually in my bank account and I called them back...

"Well that $300 is an estimate and we tell our clients they can't go by that".. to which I responded "... Would it be possible for you to tell me where it states that Attachment 2B is an estimate? Because I've kept up on the court documents and haven't seen it anywhere and frankly, nothing again you personally, but I don't trust VW".

After a 5-10 "on hold" .. there response was "You should be receiving an e-mail from JD Powers in the next few days to top off your balance"


I just thought to myself... if they shorted 400,000 cars as little as $50 each, hell that's 20 mil.
 
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da_jokker

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I was with one of the early buy backs. I inputed my mileage into the website that projected my car to have near 97,000 miles. I parked my car with 94,700 and was delivered to the dealer with less than 94,800. My payout was based on mileage of 95000-100000. I was shorted about $100 but, in the grand scheme of things, wrote it off after a couple of times to recoup it. It was not worth the hassle to me as I consider Dieselgate a farce anyway.

Drive safe.

Ironically had they not given me anything for my mileage I probably would have figured because my Appointment was on the 11th, and the real date was Sept 15, they weezled their way out of that extra month.

But the fact they gave me $250 for mileage... gave me all I needed to simply ask... where do you see $250 because I don't see it on any chart? There actually is not a single $250 as a value in Attachment 2B for the 2009 column.
 

DanB36

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Total: $13350
Again, this doesn't match what the calculator says. For the details you gave above, it says you should get $13,300, which is what you say you got. This strongly suggests that you are getting the math wrong.

So, back to the tables we go. According to Attachment 1A to the FTC Consent Order, base buyback for a 2009 Jetta in CA is $12,527, and the modification amount is $4,577.

You had 101,400 miles at turn-in, which was in Feb. 2017, 17 months from Sep. 2015. 101400 - (17 * 1042) = 101400 - 17714 = 83686. Per Attachment 2B, that does (as you said) give a mileage adjustment of +300 for the buyback, or +50 for the modification. This brings the buyback value to $12,827, and the modification amount to $4,627.

Because the modification restitution is less than $5,100, there's an additional adjustment to bring the restitution to its minimum of $5,100. That amount is (5100 - 4627) = $473. That amount is added to both values.

So, your buyback calculation is:
$12,527 - Base buyback value
+$300 - Mileage adjustment
+$473 - Restitution adjustment
-----------------------------------
$13,300

VW got it right, and has been right all along. You have not been shortchanged.

Edit: ...but it sounds like you've talked with some clueless claims reps.
 
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Armby

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Again, this doesn't match what the calculator says. ....

VW got it right, and has been right all along. You have not been shortchanged.
And if you get the $50 extra they told you they would send I think you should donate it to the TDI Club :)
 

DanB36

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After reviewing this a little further, I believe it is an error in their calculation that should be corrected.
I don't think so. Look at the tables I cited--they work out to the exact amount he received. It may be that the tables don't exactly reflect what they were intended to reflect, but the tables are part of the court order, and seem to be what VW's following.
 

chief poncho

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From the settlement docs:

If the Modification amount from (5) above is less than $5,100:
a. Subtract the Modification amount from (5) from $5,100.
b. For Buyback: Add the result from (a) to the number from (5) above.
This is your Mileage‐Adjusted Buyback Amount.
c. For Modification: Add the result from (a) to the number from (5) above.
This is your Mileage‐Adjusted Modification Amount.
Edited after seeing Dan's Response:
You are spot on Dan, but IMO, this is still an error. I don't think VW or the courts intended to reward over mileage and penalize undermileage for vehicles whose modification amount was below $5,100. Logically, I'm still trying to figure out why they ended up putting that calculation in the final buyback number. Instead of calculating a "modification adjustment" it should have simply been if your mileage adjusted modification number is less than $5,100 then use $5,100. It still rewards higher mileage owners because they aren't getting any additional reduction below the $5,100, but it doesn't penalize lower mileage owners this way.
 
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chief poncho

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I think I figured out what they did with the tables. Essentially, if you are under the $5,100 modification minimum, you do actually get a heavier weighted adjustment for mileage than if you are above it. The closer you are to $5,100 after all adjustments the less the number is, and vice versa. The buyback number is inclusive of the adjustments in the Modification table, so in essence, you don't get to double dip the adjustment.
 
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da_jokker

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Very interesting math all. Funny how you can get the different numbers depending on how you do the math.

From my understanding of following the courts, the 5100 is restitution, has a Min amount and is the same whether you chose buyback or fix. AND many are getting more restitution than that. VW is not excluding mileage adjustments for them.

The restatution amount is not negotiable and has nothing to do with mileage.

Meaning the very simplified formula is: Nada Value + restitution - mileage.

The only adjustment allowed is for restitution in that if it falls below 5100, they have to give you at least that. There is no way the courts are allowing VW to play with that number based on your mileage. They are independent and not linked.

Sorry, but I disagree, and still feel my math puts me at 13,350... a few days will tell I suppose.
 
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chief poncho

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I'll be interested to see what they say, but if they follow the calculations called out in the settlement agreement, the $13,300 number is 100% correct. The effective argument that VW could use is simply this.

Base NADA Value = $7950
Adjusted Restitution Value = $4,577 + $473 + $50 = $5,100
Mileage Adjustment for Buyback = $300 - $50 = $250

Why the - $50? Because the $300 number already includes the $50 that was credited towards the mileage adjusted Restitution value. VW would argue that they did not reduce your restitution, but rather "correctly" adjusted your buyback value via the formulas in the tables. I wish you best of luck and also totally get your logic, but unfortunately, I think the logic is off because of the way VW structured the below $5,100 restitution adjustments.

I know it doesn't seem intuitive, but the Modification adjustment due to the lower mileage only gets applied once, not twice in the final calculation. If the mileage adjustment number is negative due to high mileage, that number is also not subtracted twice. Dan's post details exactly how to get to the final number and is 100% correct.
 
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da_jokker

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Yeah.. and as I mentioned, math can be funny, for example

(5 * 4) + 2 = 22
5 * (4 + 2) = 30

Us and the courts are probably looking at the 30 value (I know I am) and VW is looking at the 22 value because it saves them money :)


Just for kicks, I tried a few of the online calculators... one even put me at 13,397 :X


I just never read anything about the Sept 2015 value being negotiable, nor have I read anything about the restitution being adjustable (beyond the Min amount).

VW is now saying that the mileage is and I don't agree with them... In a couple days (hopefully) we'll see.

Who knows, maybe they will give me the extra $50 to just shut up :)
 

dmarsingill

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I came up with $13300 with the calculators and the VW chart.

Donald
 

da_jokker

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I love a good debate, even if I'm wrong :)

But remember all, forget all the calculations. I was told that the mileage charts are just and estimate and that is why they gave me only $250.

I simply ask you....where does it say the mileage chart is 'an estimate', and where did $250 come from? That number is nowhere to be found on attachment 2B (2009 jetta ).

I was at $13050 at every stage of the official docs when they thought my mileage was at the break even. But as soon as they had to pay me more, all of a sudden the mileage chart became 'an estimate'.

.... at least that is the story I've been given 2x by separate claims representatives.
 

DanB36

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...and any reps who told you the mileage chart was an estimate are laughably wrong. No, the charts are controlling. I'd suggest contacting class counsel, if for no other reason than so they know that folks on the phone are giving out completely bogus information.

But when your buyback amount went up $300, the restitution portion went up by $50. That meant that the amount of the adjustment needed to bring your restitution up to the minimum value of $5100 went down by $50, (partially) counteracting the $300 increase. That's why you only get $250 out of a $300 mileage adjustment. This is spelled out on the charts; you don't need to take my word for it.

What's frustrating is that this isn't exactly calculus--it's relatively straightforward middle-school (at best) math. The settlement agreements specify a particular methodology, and that methodology is set out in the tables. It's a failure of training or hiring for the phone reps to not be able to explain that.
 

chief poncho

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Dan is correct. It took me awhile to figure out why VW did it the way they did, but it makes perfect sense now.

You actually did receive an additional $50 on your first offer to make up for the difference between $5,100 and the base restitution amount. But you didn't get shorted on your second offer. What you didn’t get on your second offer is a double dip of the $50.00 mileage adjustment for the restitution amount. It’s already included in your BUYBACK adjustment. If VW printed your buyback offers in this way it might make more sense.

First offer:
SEPT 2015 NADA VALUE => $7,950
BASE RESTITUTION AMOUNT => $4,577
RESTITUTION ADJUSTMENT TO $5,100 MINIMUM => $5,100 - $4,577 = $523
TOTAL BUYBACK AMOUNT => $7950 + $4577 + $523 = $13,050

Second Offer
SEPT 2015 NADA VALUE => $7,950
BASE RESTITUTION AMOUNT => $4,577
MILEAGE ADJUSTMENT => $250 (Vehicle) + $50 (Restitution) = $300
MILEAGE ADJUSTED RESTITUTION = $4,577 + $50 = $4,623
RESTITUTION ADJUSTMENT TO $5,100 MINIMUM => $5,100 - $4,623 = $473
TOTAL BUYBACK => $7,950 + $4,577 + $473 + $250 + $50 = $13,300

The bottom line is that VW simply used a calculation based on the numbers in the tables to account for the fact that the mileage adjustment for the buyback contains two components. If that were not the case, then your logic would make perfect sense. Since VW is adjusting the restitution up to a minimum of $5,100 this does disproportionately benefit higher mileage vehicles whose restitution is below $5,100. The smaller your restitution amount the greater the discrepancy will be.

Here are the instructions in equation format directly from the settlement.

Keep in mind BUYBACK BASE = NADA + MODIFICATION BASE

a) TOTAL MODIFICATION AMOUNT = MODIFICATION BASE + OPTIONS + MODIFICATION MILEAGE ADJUSTMENT
b) TOTAL BUYBACK AMOUNT = BUYBACK BASE + OPTIONS + BUYBACK MILEAGE ADJUSTMENT

If TOTAL MODIFICATION AMOUNT < $5,100
If you choose the fix:
c) THEN TOTAL MODIFICATION AMOUNT = $5,100
OR
If you choose buyback:
d) THEN BUYBACK AMOUNT = BUYBACK BASE + OPTIONS + BUYBACK MIL ADJ + ($5,100 – TOTAL MODIFICATION AMOUNT FROM a ABOVE)
 
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da_jokker

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All,
So I have heard nothing back (surprise) so I'm going to have to followup again. I found the original document I had that actually told you the formula (forget all the charts). I still don't see how VW or you are getting the numbers....


Per the site http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/final-settlement-2-Liter#Summary


Buyback

If a Class Member who owns a car chooses a Buyback, the price Volkswagen will pay for that car is the September 2015 National Automobile Dealers Association (“NADA”) Clean Trade In value of the car adjusted for options and mileage (“Vehicle Value”). This figure is the value of the car in September 2015, before the emissions accusations became public. Owners receive their Vehicle Value, plus an additional cash payment (“Owner Restitution”). The Owner Restitution payment is calculated at 20% of the Vehicle Value plus $2,986.73. The minimum Owner Restitution payment for any Class Member—to be paid on top of the Vehicle Value—will be $5,100. Some Class Members may receive as much as approximately $10,000 in Owner Restitution.



Therefore....

NADA Clean Trade .............. 7,950
Adj for Mileage .................... 300
Rest (20% + 2,986.73) ... 4,636.73
Rest 5,100 Min Adj ........... 463.27

Total = 13,350


One thing to note all... the Mileage\Options adjustment step occurs BEFORE you apply the 20% restitution, not after. As highlighted in bold above, this is the "Vehicle Value" that is used as the base.





I'll be e-mail the appropriate complaint today.
 
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