Anybody boroscoped they're BSM through the oilpan?

[ditchbum]

Trying to find out if my 2004 frankenpassat has had the delete done. I have a scope, just don't know what to look for...

 

[oilhammer]

Helical gears driving the balance shaft module vs. a single roller chain.

I cannot speak to seeing it via a boroscope through the drain plug hole, but it seems plausible. It is at the front of the engine. Lots and lots of pictures out there, you'd be coming in from the back side.

The chain version has a little guard down low (the black piece as seen in this pic on the lower left):

 

[Lug_Nut]

What? The only piece that ISN'T broken?

 

[CantWrite]

I have read on here if your oil change takes 4.5 quarts, the BSM is deleted. If it takes the normal 4 or just under, BSM still present.

does the BSM have a windage tray associated with it? If not, on the delete you use a windage tray and so that might be another way the bore scope could help.

 

[Lug_Nut]

I have read on here if your oil change takes 4.5 quarts, the BSM is deleted. If it takes the normal 4 or just under, BSM still present.

Find that, and post the link. I'll wait.
The counter rotating balance shafts don't sit in the oil. They have no volumetric displacement to raise the surface level of the oil.

 

[PickleRick]

It's been a few years since I deleted mine and I've only deleted two compared to the hundred @oilhammer has done

The first thing id think you'd notice on a deleted engine is the plastic slash guard.

On the balance shaft unit you have a giant cast assembly. I think I still have mine in the floorboard of one of my parts disco, if it's still there I'll try to snap a picture.

The splash guard will be black and plastic. Pretty sure it will even move a little when you hit it with the bore scope as it's resting on a spring, just kind of floating in place if memory serves me correctly.

The balance shaft will have no give to it.

There's the possibility it's been gear driven BS upgraded however I'm not sure how well you'll be able to see if there's a chain or not with the bore scope.

The chain will be on the crank pulley side of what would be the balance shaft assembly, and the assembly would likely be in the way.

Come to think of it I can remember where the original BHW oil drain is located, my hybrid pan is in the middle on the passenger side so the location might affect this.

 

[CantWrite]

Find that, and post the link. I'll wait.
The counter rotating balance shafts don't sit in the oil. They have no volumetric displacement to raise the surface level of the oil.

good to know. I’m no expert and have a TB and delete to do in 1500 miles.

How do I know if my balance shaft has been deleted?

Car is an 05. I bought it at 170k miles with a recently installed cam, timing belt, water, and oil pump. It had been manual swapped for 20k miles. The seller couldn't tell me if it had the balance shaft removed. I blew the turbo at about 175k miles and have read that it might have been starved...

forums.tdiclub.com

post 4,5,6.

not trying to spread misinformation, just regurgitating what I’ve read here.

 

[oilhammer]

The balance shaft module most certainly DOES sit down in the oil. But how much it actually displaces is probably minimal. How do I know this? Because if you look at the dipstick hanging down in the engine, with the oil pan removed, the level indicator is about in the middle of where the lower side of the module sits ... remember, VAG tilts their engines to 15 degrees, and the dipstick is placed on the high side of the block.

This is a good pic to show the tilt:

Notice the #1 balance shaft (the little sprocket with the four screws) in the left? The dipstick level lands about even on the right side with the screw that is just to the right of the Audi rings in the casting of the tensioner assembly. Which means (because Archimedes said so) parts of the balance shaft assembly are indeed sitting IN oil when the engine is at rest and the car is on level ground.

 

[oilhammer]

Another shot showing just how far down into the pan that module hangs:

I've done a lot of these...

 

[oilhammer]

On the transverse engines, which are also placed at 15 degrees, the difference in oil capacity for balance shaft equipped engines (CBEA) vs. non (CJAA) is as follows:



CBEA:

Oil Capacities

Without changing the oil filter .................... 3.7L

With changing the oil filter .................... 4.0L


CJAA:

Engine Oil

Filling quantities
With filter .................... 4.3 liters (4.5 quarts)


Source: Alldata, and my own experience changing the oil on more of these engines than probably anyone here would ever encounter...

I would suspect the BHW to be similar.

 

[Lug_Nut]

That's my mistake: Conflating chained drive with geared drive, with complete removal.
Post #1 asks about inspecting the BSM. The implication is that the unit is available to be inspected.
Had the question been about confirming if the module were present, or not, I'd not have used post #2 as a 'filter'.
Post #2 seemed to me to narrow the 'three' configurations to just two:

Helical gears driving the balance shaft module vs. a single roller chain.

and I took off with that presumption.

Deleting the chain drive for the geared drive does not modify the oil volume in the sump.
Deleting the balance shafts housing might well make more space for oil in the sump.

 

[ditchbum]

So, just to be clear...I'm confused. When I push the scope towards the front of the engine, should I see the black plastic splash guard, or NOT see the black plastic splash guard. The car runs great by the way but I hear a noise when I change gears ( It has a FHN swap). Sounds like a tdi diesel to me when it starts up but I wouldn't know what a timebomb noise sounds like so...It could be a clutch thing but am trying to figure out one thing at a time, Hopefully before it explodes...

 

[ditchbum]

I misspoke also. Should I see the black plastic splash guard if it has been deleted? Or should I see it if it hasn't been deleted?

 

[CantWrite]

As I understand it. A BHW with the OEM BSM still installed will show the hunk of cast iron that is the BSM.

if the BSM has been deleted, a splash shield (windage tray) of black plastic should be in place of the BSM location wether it’s the ALH or BRM pump. The difference between those two is the oil pressure.

 

[CantWrite]

Please take photos of what you find with your borescope (if possible) as I am just a few miles behind you!

 

[zzdiesel]

If deleted the pump is at the front of the engine, the black plastic behind it.

I believe the pumps are the same. Just drive the BRM pump setup faster to give more volume. The pressure is regulated in either case.

 

[CantWrite]

Well I tried to borescope my oil pan today. I borrowed a Milwaukee M12 M-SPECTOR from a friend and thought it would work. NOPE, stupid me forgot to account for the beveled end on the drain plug vs just the threaded area. I could pretty much only see the other side of the oil pan and nothing else. The unknown continues. My car is quiet, no chain noise.

I am due for a TB change, and will prolly just order a BSM delete kit as well. But I have to make a trip back to South Dakota before tearing into it. Which will be 2k miles over the TB due mileage. I'm trying not to sweat the small things

 

[zzdiesel]

Try using something like an acetylene welding rod, or a metal hanger bent into a curve shape. Through the oil plug hole you should be able to tell if you hit plastic, the wind guard or metal, likely the balance shaft.

As for going 2000 miles over the timing belt recommendation i wouldn't worry.

How many miles on the car? The one I just deleted lost oil pressure at 165000. The chain found outside the engine.

 

[CantWrite]

My car has 230k miles. But the guy who did the manual swap (een) said at 150k he did the auto delete, continental TB, and replaced the chain and guides in the BSM.

 

[MrRobogoat]

I've boroscoped two BHWs, one BSM deleted, one not. On one, I could get the camera through the drain plug hole, on the other, I could not. So it seems to depend on whether the oil pan has been replaced or not.

I also went in through the dipstick tube. I think that way was more obvious. After experiencing the differences, I would feel confident in testing just by using the dipstick, there's a tell tale resistance increase with maybe an inch to go.

I can also verify the increase in oil capacity with the BSM delete, the deleted car did take noticeably more oil.

 

[CantWrite]

I would feel confident in testing just by using the dipstick, there's a tell tale resistance increase with maybe an inch to go

Just to confirm, the tell tale resistance is when the BSM is still present. That correct?

 

[MrRobogoat]

Just to confirm, the tell tale resistance is when the BSM is still present. That correct?

Yeah, and if you stick a boroscope down the dipstick tube on one with an intact BSM you'll see why: the dipstick rubs on the housing. With no BSM, it's loosey goosey all the way to the bottom.

The additional oil is less than a quart, maybe three quarters? It's noticeable but not enough to need to buy more than the 5 qts in an oil change kit.

The original BSM delete thread(s) have pictures that help back this up, that's how I felt certain when I assessed mine. I used all three methods to validate them, and now having that experience I feel 100% confident going by just the dipstick tube. A geared BSM might trick you, but that would likely be documented with the car because it's a rare part.