another wont start intermittent

[CWI_TDI]

another car won't start-intermittent starting

03 Jetta, 01Money trans, 150.5k miles...

Symptoms: on slight grade, car wont start. With key in the on position, all lights appear normal. Start position-no abnormal light patterns. This has occurred several times in last couple of weeks(but not every time). First couple of times I put gear selector in neutral, let the car roll a few inches-the car started like the first day I bought it. Today (on level ground, zero slope), I put the selector in neutral, key to start position...all lights normal, but no start. Put the gear selector in PARK, opened door, used my foot to rock the car forward and backward...started up immediately. I thought I heard a click somewhere(maybe below shift lever (?) when rocking car), but couldnt determine where. I dont think it was the shift lock solenoid...I can hear and feel it when depressing the brake pedal. I have reviewed Bentley pg 97-129 (TCM, Shift lock solenoid), and am wondering if this could actually be the cause. Any guidance or ideas would be greatly appreciated...

I think I scrubbed the forum looking for something similar, apologize in advance if this is a repeat question...thanks again

update: read "useless info post"...recent maintenance...replaced rear rotors/pads thanks to this forum. Not sure if relevant, but thought I'd mention...

 

[Ookpic]

Just a shot but could it be the shifter position sensor? Maybe try putting the car in neutral when it won't start on the grade and see if it will start?

 

[CWI_TDI]

car wont start/intermittent

This is intermittent...first couple of tries, I put it in neutral and then it worked. Yesterday when i put it in neutral it didnt work. Thats when I rocked it back and forth in PARK, then it worked. I imagine it would have then worked in neutral. I'll take a look at the position sensor in the Bentley and see if I can deduce from there...thanks for the response.

 

[CWI_TDI]

wont start-intermittent

current status: went to use car this am, started with no problems. Upon return I tried to replicate shutdown sequence that would create the problem..ie shift lever in PARK, gently released brakes( by habit I always apply parking brake before 1) shifting into PARK and 2) releasing brakes.) I could feel the trans load up in the PARK gear (?). Went to start, it started up. Repeated about 3x, every time it started up. More to follow...

thanks in advance for reading this...

 

[CWI_TDI]

another "car won't start" - intermittent starting

8/6/08 pm update

Started car 3x this afternoon - first 2 times (on slight grade) had to release parking brake, coast and let the trans rest on the PARK gear ( I hope that makes sense and correct terminology is used -if not please let me know.) Car started up. Third time, slight slant, car started on first attempt, didn't have to release parking brake. Two more observations... 1) on first 2 failed starts, I was pointed upslope. Third time (when it worked) was pointed downslope. 2nd observation) when it started, it seemed like there was a 1/4 to 1/3 of a second delay from the time the key was turned until the time the starter cranked. Not sure if relevant but am trying to relay any and all info that might help diagnose.

Anyone seen a shifter position sensor and can describe how it works...

Thanks in advance for reading...

 

[Ookpic]

Man I have been pouring over the Bentley and all I can see is a reference to the Park/Neutral PNP relay but I can't seem to locate what enables the relay? I have had a good look at the exploded view of the shifter assembly and I can't seem to find any switch contact or toggle that would give the signal to turn on this relay. Unless it is getting some signal from inside the tranny somewhere?

<snip>

Ok, while I was typing this, I was looking at the Multifunction TR switch which attaches to the selector on the transmission. There is adjustment here and this switch could be your culprit. In my Bentley manual it is on pages 37-17 and 37-18. These are in the automatic transmission section. If you don't have these pages, PM me and I'll email them to you.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help maybe one of the more experienced people here could chime in with some ideas.

 

[whitedog]

Will it ever NOT start in Park?

 

[CWI_TDI]

I was just looking at the J226 (relay) myself in the Bentley. Agreed, the TR is worth looking into. Since its an 01M, I suspect the only thing I can do is to unplug and plug it back in. Hope I am wrong. Also fear, as you stated, that the signal is initiated from something mechanical inside the trans.

All failed start attempts today were initially in park with the ebrake on. Released the brake, car rolled an inch or two, then started when key turned to the start position (and lever in Park position). So to answer question, it has never not started in Park (except when it wouldnt start in either Park or neutral). Hope I got my message across there(ie hope I was clear)

 

[Ookpic]

Hey, maybe you'll get lucky and the plug will be loose or the relay may be bad. If there is identical relays beside the PNP Park/Neutral relay you could try swapping with one beside. Make sure that the contacts are EXACTLY the same though.

 

[CWI_TDI]

Will give that some thought and a look this weekend, hope I make it until then. thanks for your input...

 

[JB05]

Do your back-up lights work?

 

[whitedog]

Do your back-up lights work?

Interesting question. What are you thinking is going here?

 

[CWI_TDI]

Todays activity: 6-7am, no issues, started 2x, immediate start both times. Arrived at work, shut down. Immediately tried to re-start, it started up 3 of 3 attempts.

5pm: Key in ignition and in the on position(not yet started), put the shift lever in reverse, applied parking brake. (2) back up lights working as expected. Put shift lever in Park, no start. Released parking brake, let it roll a couple of inches, successfully started. Then put shift lever in reverse, parking brake set, both back-up lights working as expected.

630pm: shut down, immediate re-start successful (3 of 3 attempts). 6:45 shut down, parking brake set, shift lever in park. 5 mins later, no start. Released parking brake, let it roll a couple of inches (in park), good start.

New observation: I hear a faint click, sounds like the J226 relay(left side of steering column), and makes a noise before a good start, no noise before a no-start. Will try to gather more data on this piece.

I'd like to see what's behind the seal on the TR switch. If it's gooked up with fluid, then maybe something is not retracting or extending as designed.

 

[Ookpic]

Here's something to try

Seems like everytime you involve the parking brake, you have issues. It also seems like you are using the parking brake properly. IE Come to a stop, pull the parking brake while in "Drive", place shifter in park position. This IS the proper way to avoid unnecessary wear on the parking pin.

Just for giggles, maybe try to put it in park, let the car rest on the parking pin and then pull the handbrake. Then try a restart and see if you have different results. At the very least it will eliminate the parking brake from the equation.

 

[CWI_TDI]

good idea...I cringe every time I get in the suburban after a woman has been driving it and almost have to rip it out of park...

 

[40X40]

Maybe I missed it...

When it doesn't start, DOES it crank at all?

Bill

 

[Ookpic]

good idea...I cringe every time I get in the suburban after a woman has been driving it and almost have to rip it out of park...

LMAO!! I hear you loud and clear. Look at my driveway in the background of this photo

I have on too many occasions to count told the wife to...

Pull in driveway
While holding the brake, place car in Neutral
Pull handbrake
Ease off on the brake and make sure car "holds"
Place car into Park.

Do you think that ever happens??? LOL Nope! Half the time she doesn't even use the handbrake. I quite expect to see the car across the street in the neighbours front lawn someday.

 

[CWI_TDI]

When it doesnt start, it doesnt crank at all. When it does start, it starts like the first day I bought it...

 

[40X40]

You've probably already seen this thread... but if not, Here it is!!

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=199398 It can be found in Whitedogs' sig as well cause he wrote it.

Bill

 

[CWI_TDI]

Yeah, thats where I started...I dont drive around with all the keys hanging on the key chain any more thanks to advice on that thread.

So just got back from an errand, one new observation. Upon leaving, wouldnt start. Did the usual lever to neutral, roll back, lever to park, key to start position. This time, there was a delay -1/4 to 1/3 second or so -and thought I heard the shift lock solenoid click- and at that exact same time the engine cranked and started. I'll be watching for more of that tomorrow.

 

[CWI_TDI]

Ok, update...todays attempts to start failed using yesterdays method. Today, turned key to start position, held it there, wiggled the shift lever in park and found a sweet spot and it started. So, in process of pulling shift lever and console. Looks like i have late version selector lever -bentley 37-25. Except its white with a couple of red dots on it, so assume that means red-brown.

With locking sleeve slid down on lever, pull upward on handle. Sounds simple, but not so. Feels like it's glued or like am going to break something if I use force. Anyone been here before?

 

[CWI_TDI]

for what its worth, a driver side view of the shift column under the trim...

 

[CWI_TDI]

In the TDIFAQ section, Troubleshooting, 8b1(c): Gear position interlock switch fault... could it possibly be named something else? Am looking at bentley 37-21 and cant locate. thanks...

edit...could that be the TR Transmission range switch?

 

[Ookpic]

In the TDIFAQ section, Troubleshooting, 8b1(c): Gear position interlock switch fault... could it possibly be named something else? Am looking at bentley 37-21 and cant locate. thanks...

edit...could that be the TR Transmission range switch?

I'm running out of ideas for you

I wish I had an older Bentley manual to check whether the TDIFAQ could be referring to some sort of switch in the shifter mechanism in previous models. I have been over and over the Bentley manual for our model and I see no such switch anywhere. That's what led me to believe it may be internal or somehow incorporated into the TR switch as we discussed above.

Did you have a look at the TR switch? Also wondering if i might be an idea to do the procedure starting on 37-27 to adjust selector lever cable? It looks like a fairly simple procedure. I would make sure you are on level surface when/if you do it though. Wish I could be of more help!

 

[CWI_TDI]

working on the TR switch now...might have to try getting to it from the underside, not much room there from the top side.

edit- pull air filter housing, much easier. geez

 

[CWI_TDI]

TR switch lobe spring action feels smooth, rollers are rolling, guess its time to take it apart...

couple of pics of TR switch and tranny cavity

 

[CWI_TDI]

plug side of TR switch. From top left to bottom right (#1-7), per Bentley 97-120 wiring diagram:
1. <null>, but has continuity with #2
2. Brown - ground
3. purple(lilac)/black - to T68/40, 68 pin connector on TCM
4. red/yellow - to T10/8 10 pin connector then to TCM
5. blue/yellow - to T10/6
6. grey/black - to T68/62

Contacts are very clean, both in male and female ends.

Cant get continuity between #2 GND and any other contacts, while plunging either piston individually or both simultaneously. Is this the correct way to check this?

Dealer is open but not answering or returning calls - for curiosity's sake I asked Kragens, was quoted $234

 

[JB05]

In my earlier post I was thinking of a neutral/safety switch which I thought controlled the back-up lights on some vehicles, but I don't know about VW's. I see the OP has checked the relay 175(Park/Neutral) Position, but I'm not sure if this relay functions like the afore mentioned NS switch.

 

[CWI_TDI]

Inside view of 01M TR Switch. Somehow I think that simple continuity testing is not going to work here...anyone know how one could go about checking this? Do I need to run 12v thru it?

Starting to think I'm at the replace-it-and-see-if-it-fixes-it-point... thanks in advance for reading this..

 

[whitedog]

Find the thread by Alphasenior about killing the automatic. In there you will find people that have gotten rid of their automatic tranmisions and you may find a switch. Cheaper than the dealer.