I’m doing a manual swap on my b5.5 Passat TDi. I am wondering once the automatic transmission is out. Can I rebolt up the subframe before installing the manual transmission? Will I have a problem putting it in. I’m watching Levi’s video on YouTube and it appears his subframe was put back together before installing the manual transmission. Thanks for any help.
Another silly question
- Thread starter Yetii
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DivineChaos
Top Post Dawg
you should be able to. never as "easy" but yeah.
I appreciate the help but I need a more definite answer. The bolts used for the subframe are one time use and don’t wanna have to reorder and wait for new ones to come in if I can’t get it in. I know it will be harder to get it in with the subframe bolted up but is it possible without an insane amount trouble.
PickleRick
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2017
- Location
- Greenville sc
- TDI
- 05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I never drop my sub frame or loosen it when I did my 5 speed conversion or when I replaced my clutch.
Pull the engine and Trans out as one.
if I had a lift at home I'd look into other options but I have a cherry picker with leveler that makes easy work of it plus I don't have to work on my back under the vw.
Pull the engine and Trans out as one.
if I had a lift at home I'd look into other options but I have a cherry picker with leveler that makes easy work of it plus I don't have to work on my back under the vw.
That’s not the way I did it. I loosened the rear half of the subframe because I watched Levi Jeffries’ video on how to remove the automatic transmission. Then I watched his video on tranny swap. So I would be putting the transmission back in through the bottom. I don’t have a lift but it’s on Jack stands high enough off the ground. It seems like it won’t be a problem but I was asking for a second opinion from someone who has done it.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
You can R&R the manual gearboxes without dropping the subframe. You cannot R&R the automatics that way, the ZF 5HP19 is just too big.
I have had hundreds of B5 subframes off, and have never once replaced any of the bolts, and have never had any problems. In fact, you'll have to shift it around afterwards to get the alignment right anyway.
Up to you if you want to work around the subframe putting the manual box back up in there, but I wouldn't... it is certainly easier with it out, and you already have it out, so....
But keep in mind, I am not doing anything on the ground, either. I have everything up on a lift, I can walk around underneath.
I have had hundreds of B5 subframes off, and have never once replaced any of the bolts, and have never had any problems. In fact, you'll have to shift it around afterwards to get the alignment right anyway.
Up to you if you want to work around the subframe putting the manual box back up in there, but I wouldn't... it is certainly easier with it out, and you already have it out, so....
But keep in mind, I am not doing anything on the ground, either. I have everything up on a lift, I can walk around underneath.
DivineChaos
Top Post Dawg
There was only 2 actual stretch bolts on my mk6. They had the small shank. Immediately replaced them with grade 10
Thank you for the input. I do have the alignment pins for the front so that will help with aligning the subframe.
I guess I’m getting a little impatient because after a few months of waiting for parts, disassembly, doing bsm delete, tandem pump etc. also not touching for two months because it was way too cold to lay on the ground. I’m so close to putting the tranny in. I’m just waiting on the stupid clutch alignment pin to come in on Thursday. I figured I’d put it back together as much as I could so when I put the manual in and bolt it in I can start and drive it with less work. But I’ll just wait to make my life easier
Theres a little more ease in reinstalling the manual with the subframe out, namely the mount brackets and mounts. Other than those, not much else. I've had my manual trans out a few times since install and never taken down the subframe.
Yeah I’ll take oilhammer’s word. Since the subframe is already down might as well leave it down to make things easier for my install.
MEgearhead
Veteran Member
Seriously considering OH's advice is always a good idea. It will be easier if you leave it out/down. Especially for the transmission to engine bolts, mounts/brackets, and the slave cylinder if you put it in after the transmission. I finished a swap a few months ago. You'll enjoy it!
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
The good news is, in the future, should you for whatever reason have to R&R the manual box (hopefully you won't), you can get it out without dropping the subframe. There is enough room to work around it, and the transmission is thin enough to slip through and out.
Knock on wood, both my ZF slushboxes are still working fine, 240k and 250k. But I really should start collecting the pieces for manual swaps. One of mine is a 4mo car, though, so that also requires the REAR diff get changed.
Knock on wood, both my ZF slushboxes are still working fine, 240k and 250k. But I really should start collecting the pieces for manual swaps. One of mine is a 4mo car, though, so that also requires the REAR diff get changed.
PickleRick
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2017
- Location
- Greenville sc
- TDI
- 05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Levi made a great video but he also has a lift. Do you have a shop lined familiar with the b5.5 chasis to do a proper alignment? That's another reason why I never touch the sub frame. And I also dont have a transmissom jack.
Doesn't matter what trans is attached, there's plenty of room to pull the bhw or even v6 out the front of the car once in service position.
If you have a helper to guide you don't have to remove cv axles with the 5 speed. Just don't try it solo. Works on removal, not so much on intsall.
MEgearhead
Veteran Member
OH, is your 4mo a BHW? Not wanting to sidetrack the thread, just wondering?
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
No, it is an AWM. 22 MPG on Premium, LOL.... (not a daily driver, thankfully).
I know since you’re a mechanic and deal with these cars obtaining parts would be easier for you. Only real part you’d need to import is a FHN or tdi equivalent transmission because the gearing would be a little off with the gasser trans no? I know you can do it but your rpms would be high on highway driving.
Anyway you are probably well aware of Frans from Dutchautoparts and I just did business with him. I am willing to add my vouch (for what it’s worth) to the long list of other happy people.
I’ll take it to my local dealer For the alignment. Being a VW club member I get 15% off so the price will be somewhat comparable to a indie shop and I can trust they’ll do it right. My family has been going to that dealer for a while and haven’t had any problems. Believe it or not, I’ve had worse experience with indie shops vs dealerships which seems to be rare haha. They are called stealer-ships for a reason.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Frans couldn't seem to help me when I was wanting to convert my AWM 4Mo to a BHW+manual. At the time, the AWM's breather system was in need of rebuilding again, the SAI was in shambles, and it was flagging catalyst DTCs. I ended up just pulling the intake and rebuilding the breather, deleting the SAI, and having an RC1 tune placed on it, so it no longer cars about the SAI or the catalyst. Runs a bit better, too.
The issue is, the B5's rear end is not like the Audi A4 on which it shares its basic platform... it instead uses the bigger Audi A6 rear diff and suspension. And the automatics use a different REAR diff ratio. So regardless of what engine, if I want to convert from auto to manual, I also have to change the rear diff. Can't use A4 quattro rear diff. I think Audi sold about 5 A6 quattros with manuals here total (LOL... could also use the Allroad, same mechanicals), so essentially any stateside parts binning was out.
And as it turns out, there evidently were not many 4Mo diesel manual B5s sold in Europe, either (Frans said this, I found that hard to believe, but I wouldn't know).
Sure, I could use the manual bits from one of the handful of AWM 4Mo manuals sold here (those cars are very, very rare), or even an ATQ car (rarer yet), but those would not be geared as ideal as a gearbox from a diesel. And given the BHW's small V8 levels of torque and its relatively low RPM sweet spot, I really wouldn't want to go through all that work and have it spinning 3000 RPM at 75.
The issue is, the B5's rear end is not like the Audi A4 on which it shares its basic platform... it instead uses the bigger Audi A6 rear diff and suspension. And the automatics use a different REAR diff ratio. So regardless of what engine, if I want to convert from auto to manual, I also have to change the rear diff. Can't use A4 quattro rear diff. I think Audi sold about 5 A6 quattros with manuals here total (LOL... could also use the Allroad, same mechanicals), so essentially any stateside parts binning was out.
And as it turns out, there evidently were not many 4Mo diesel manual B5s sold in Europe, either (Frans said this, I found that hard to believe, but I wouldn't know).
Sure, I could use the manual bits from one of the handful of AWM 4Mo manuals sold here (those cars are very, very rare), or even an ATQ car (rarer yet), but those would not be geared as ideal as a gearbox from a diesel. And given the BHW's small V8 levels of torque and its relatively low RPM sweet spot, I really wouldn't want to go through all that work and have it spinning 3000 RPM at 75.
Sounds like with your specific situation it’s just a harder swap due to parts availablity. When I got my trans from Fran’s he told me that the DUK and FHN trans were becoming scarce and he had generic TDi trans available (I got a GFL trans) which if you look them up their final drives and gearing aren’t much off from each other. I guess people prefer the FHN due to it coming off a Passat TDi? Not sure but either way I know I got a TDi transmission and if it works and does practically the same thing as a FHN then who cares haha.
As for parts availability from Frans there probably weren’t many made in his country. I’m assuming he doesn’t go out of his way looking in different neighboring countries for parts. He probably just sticks with local stuff (cost effective and less headaches).
i was at one point thinking of importing a European passat tdi. Simply for the fact you can get a 4Motion Passat TDi in manual stock from the factory. Everything oem, no BSM, no EGR, you get climatronic which is cool and the European xenon headlights plus other cool quirks with a euro spec car.
I forgot what website I was using to look over in Europe but it showed used cars for sale all over Europe not just UK or Germany. They had plenty of 4mo manual and most of them were wagons (estates) seems like wagons were more abundant over there than here. I prefer the sedan look and it was hard finding a 4mo manual tdi Passat. Prices weren’t ridiculous either.I remember seeing some lower kilometer ones like 130-150k going for like 3-4K euros. But that was awhile ago not sure how Covid effected the prices.
MEgearhead
Veteran Member
I asked because if he had a BHW 4mo, I might just have to take a road trip to see it, have my Passat aligned properly, and a good check-up to boot.
Back to your original question regarding the subframe:
Seems like you already removed the subframe, But, if I were to do another one I would probably go the route PickleRick did and pull everything out the top. However, I don't mess with the service position. It's no more work to just take the whole front off. I leave the condenser connected rotate it up and over the passenger fender, throw an old blanket on the fender and hang the condenser upside down with a bungie.
I had already removed the subframe twice before (balance shaft, then TC) so I knew that drill. I don't mess with only dropping it either. I just take it completely out. You just have to support the engine well at both the front and back.
If you have a lift, good engine support, and trans jack out the bottom makes sense.
If you don't these, but can get a good cherry picker and have a reasonably smooth surface to roll in on our the top makes sense.
If like me, you have no lift, no cherry picker, no smooth surface, but a passable engine support, floor jack, and transmission adapter. Out the bottom works and you have my sympathy.
Just my opinion and we know about them.
Back to your original question regarding the subframe:
Seems like you already removed the subframe, But, if I were to do another one I would probably go the route PickleRick did and pull everything out the top. However, I don't mess with the service position. It's no more work to just take the whole front off. I leave the condenser connected rotate it up and over the passenger fender, throw an old blanket on the fender and hang the condenser upside down with a bungie.
I had already removed the subframe twice before (balance shaft, then TC) so I knew that drill. I don't mess with only dropping it either. I just take it completely out. You just have to support the engine well at both the front and back.
If you have a lift, good engine support, and trans jack out the bottom makes sense.
If you don't these, but can get a good cherry picker and have a reasonably smooth surface to roll in on our the top makes sense.
If like me, you have no lift, no cherry picker, no smooth surface, but a passable engine support, floor jack, and transmission adapter. Out the bottom works and you have my sympathy.
Just my opinion and we know about them.
That’s how I’m doing it. No cherry picker, no smooth ground. Just a harbor freight engine mount and Jack stands and a regular car Jack to lift the transmission up and down. I just had the whole front end off to do my balance shaft delete. Disassembled it just like you said and now all put back together. What a fun project this car has been. I truly have enjoyed it.
MEgearhead
Veteran Member
Just make sure you support the engine from both the front and rear lift rings. With the transmission on, the c.g. is close to the rear ring. Without the transmission, the c.g. is near the front ring. If supported only from the rear ring, without the subframe/engine mounts, after you separate the transmission, the engine can move back and pull the front engine snubber out of its bracket. It will then fall forward and down until the timing cover hits the lock carrier. (Radiator support to us. Had to make a little jab at the bizarre German naming)
While it's open, I highly recommend you check the condition of the coolant flange and hoses on the back of the head. If the hoses are swelled look for fuel/oil leaks (tandem pump/valve cover). I replaced mine the first time from the top. That will make you hate the car for a while. With the transmission out it's a breeze. Oh, and it's best done prior to fitting the clutch since jacked up high on the front, coolant will go everywhere even after draining the radiator. Even then it's not too hard to bag off the clutch if you already installed it.
While it's open, I highly recommend you check the condition of the coolant flange and hoses on the back of the head. If the hoses are swelled look for fuel/oil leaks (tandem pump/valve cover). I replaced mine the first time from the top. That will make you hate the car for a while. With the transmission out it's a breeze. Oh, and it's best done prior to fitting the clutch since jacked up high on the front, coolant will go everywhere even after draining the radiator. Even then it's not too hard to bag off the clutch if you already installed it.
I’ve literally replaced everything, rear coolant flange, temp sensor and gasket, tandem pump and gasket, any fuel, vacuum or coolant hose that was brittle was replaced. New N75, new air filter New thermostat and flange for that. Balance shaft delete, valve cover and gasket, oil hammers big battery upgrade and new fuel filter ( can free with the car the guy didn’t do it yet) I will be doing the fuel filter upgrade after that. New engine, snub and tranmission mounts. Brake fluid flush, coolant flush. New timing belt with water pump rollers and tensioners. New accesory belts with new ac tensioner. I spared no expense since I had it completely apart. I’m a huge Volkswagen guy and a big tdi guy and wanna see this car live forever if possible.
TPW
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2017
- Location
- Minnesota
- TDI
- 2003 A6 Avant BHW 6 speed manual, 2003 Golf ALH 506k miles
I've used a 14mm deep well socket for an alignment pin. Never had any problems, but I always check first before removing subframe bolts. I also use a pick to score the supports in front to help put the subframe in the exact same spot as it was in.
My dad owns a machine shop and made me copy of the 3393 VW tool in 303 stainless steel. Thanks to “Figure It Audi” on YouTube I got the measurements for the VW 3393 test mandrel tool.
I was simply watching his video to see how the tool works and in the beginning of the video he gives you the measurements for the tool. I was originally going to buy the tool since they are cheap but I got the measurements so why not make them for even cheaper haha.