another hpfp failure

seamus19066

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North Carolina
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2010 sportwagon
Wow, my dealer wasn't lying! I just breezed though 30% of that list and my dealer is on there 5 times in the last year or so!!
 

vdubtdi11

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2011 golf TDI
I cant get the spread sheet on my phone and I will certainly look when I get back to my house, but 3000 is only. 24 percent of the 241000 If on the road in the us. That's 'point 24 percent'. Let it be known that i hate auto correct that won't let me change my text back from its correction when it's correction is wrong.
 

IMAAaron

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2013 JSW - Third time's a charm
Mmm statistics....

Lets also keep in mind that there have been no reported failures of 2014 vehicles. There appears to be a trend in 2009/2010 vehicles having the most failures. We could be optimistic and say that the troubles are all behind us. Or, we could presume its more a parabolic curve and that with time and distance, we'll see a whole lot more failures.

The <1% thing is a really tough sell. At least at the moment.
 

WutGas?

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The Last Real Jetta Sedan
I cant get the spread sheet on my phone and I will certainly look when I get back to my house, but 3000 is only. 24 percent of the 241000 If on the road in the us. That's 'point 24 percent'. Let it be known that i hate auto correct that won't let me change my text back from its correction when it's correction is wrong.
No, your math is off or at least your way of figuring percentages. 3000 is 1% of 300000.

Just saying the number is 3K (although it is higher), and there are 241,279 on sold, then to find the percentage is 3,000/241,279 x 100 which equals 1.24%.
 
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WutGas?

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The Last Real Jetta Sedan
The <1% thing is a really tough sell. At least at the moment.
It's not even possible. At this point it is a FACT that it is more than 1% I would say. That being said, this is total # and doesn't take into account misfuels.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Province of Quebec, Canada
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Gone...
It's not even possible. At this point it is a FACT that it is more than 1% I would say. That being said, this is total # and doesn't take into account misfuels.
The latter is a very important point. As I mentioned elsewhere, the 2013s now have a "fool-proof" anti-misfueling fuel inlet (just took delivery of a 2013 Golf wagon). It's pretty clever, it makes it impossible to fuel with a smaller RUG nozzle, it's too small to force open the small plate that blocks the inlet. A larger diesel nozzle is necessary for that. It will therefore interesting to see the stats for 2013. I'm willing to bet they'll be less than 1%.

The downside to this new design is that it makes it tougher if not impossible to fuel to the brim. On my 2011 (with the big gaudy Diesel Only recall label...but no Rube Goldberg apparatus), it's possible to squeeze in another 2.5 or so liters after the fuel pump auto shut-off, which is good for an extra 50 km of range... :(

Being on our 5th TDI, and with my wife having also driven TDIs exclusively since 2004, I doubt there's much chance we'd mis-fuel. If we do it's time to check into the nursing home...
 

WutGas?

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It is definitely over 1%. Not everyone of these failures is reported to them or on that list.
Possibly true, but know that this is a spreadsheet provided by VW. All failures should be reported to VW so if the numbers are wrong, VW would have to be outright lying.
 

tuan209

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Mar 29, 2011
Location
SLC
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11 Golf TDI
Update -

Well its been 3 days and according to my service rep, the regional VW manager is still mulling over if they will cover the repair or not.
 

seamus19066

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Location
North Carolina
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2010 sportwagon
Update -

Well its been 3 days and according to my service rep, the regional VW manager is still mulling over if they will cover the repair or not.
And others think the tide isn't turning??? I still say that VW should not have a pump design that cannot stand some contamination as it is not an issue the consumer can not prevent. Gm cars can detect when you put E85 in and the computer adjust to compensate on e85 cars as they are mapped for two fuels. Why can't there be a sensor to detect contamination and save the pump??
 

vdubtdi11

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NoVA
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2011 golf TDI
No, your math is off or at least your way of figuring percentages. 3000 is 1% of 300000.

Just saying the number is 3K (although it is higher), and there are 241,279 on sold, then to find the percentage is 3,000/241,279 x 100 which equals 1.24%.
Yes, thank you for correcting me. Never was good at solving math problems.:D

So based on the growing numbers, do you think that VW will be forced to
take responsibility at some point? Im hoping that they extend the warranty on these pumps. I guess they would have to recognize that its their fault first though..

Does anyone know why the JSW's have the highest failure rates? Sorry to those of you who have the '09! :( But it seems as though most of the parents having an issue have the '09 JSW. Is there any difference in the fuel system for some reason between the DSG and the manual?
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
At this point, given that the vehicle and engine in question is nearing the end of its production cycle, my prediction is deny, deny, deny, and this is supported by commentary near the end of one of the documents (basically blaming fuel). Obviously, that's not consistent with the Passat having had some redesign to the fuel system, and for prior year TDI vehicles not having these sorts of issues despite running on the same fuel.

There's no known difference between Golf, Jetta sedan, and Jetta/Golf wagon fuel systems. There's also no known difference between manual and automatic transmission, with regards to the fuel systems. The one that's different, is the Passat.
 

WutGas?

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So based on the growing numbers, do you think that VW will be forced to
take responsibility at some point? Im hoping that they extend the warranty on these pumps. I guess they would have to recognize that its their fault first though..
At this point, given that the vehicle and engine in question is nearing the end of its production cycle, my prediction is deny, deny, deny, and this is supported by commentary near the end of one of the documents (basically blaming fuel). Obviously, that's not consistent with the Passat having had some redesign to the fuel system, and for prior year TDI vehicles not having these sorts of issues despite running on the same fuel.
Have to agree with GoFaster on this one. Unless the NHTSA "makes" VW do the right thing, I don't think that they will. I don't quite understand all the politics, as it seems obvious to all of us that there is a design flaw in the pump, but I don't have as deep of pockets as VW.

Let's hope the Mazda diesel can take the VWs place :)
 

KonaJack

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Barrington, IL
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I hope someone can tell me I'm wrong about this, but the VINs on ALL the cases in the spreadsheet start with 3VWRL71K69M...which appears to be the 2009 Jetta general VIN ID (it always comes up as such when you google it). If that's true then the incidecne rate is 3037/2009 Jetta TDI units sold - a far higher rate than has been theorized before. e.g. if there were 30,000 2009 Jetta TDI's sold, then the rate is 10% and growing. I'm not a VIN expert so hopefully someone can clarify this.
 

KonaJack

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Now that I think about it, the original complaint filed with NHTSA had named only the Jetta as the subject, so it would make sense that only Jettas are reflected ion the database. Leaving out the new Passat, there were far fewer Golf's sold in the period versus the Jetta. However, it still appears that all the VINs in the spreadsheet are 2009 VINs, so, if accurate, it still means a very high HPFP failure rate, though likely less than 10%. But every fill-up is a crap-shoot, so the failure rate has nowhere to go but up. Also, 594 (or 19.5%) of the failures are labeled as misfuels, leaving 80% as not related to misfuels. Reasonably assuming that many of the misfuels were contaminated fuel (rather than someone actually adding gasoline to thier car) means that we really have little control over whether we are the next to fall victim, it's mostly luck of the draw. Just to help my chances, I don't let the tank run to empty (in case there are contaminants which can become concentrated) and I have used an additive (Opti-Lube XPD) to help make up for poor fuel quality at the pump. I also go out of my way to use a high-volume pure diesel supplier (rather than the 11% plus Bio that is so prevalent in IL) so I don't screw up my DPF or dilute my crankcase oil from repeated regen cycles. It's all a pain in the *** but I do enjoy my car.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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ARIZONA
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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I hope someone can tell me I'm wrong about this, but the VINs on ALL the cases in the spreadsheet start with 3VWRL71K69M...which appears to be the 2009 Jetta general VIN ID (it always comes up as such when you google it). If that's true then the incidecne rate is 3037/2009 Jetta TDI units sold - a far higher rate than has been theorized before. e.g. if there were 30,000 2009 Jetta TDI's sold, then the rate is 10% and growing. I'm not a VIN expert so hopefully someone can clarify this.
Yes, I saw that yesterday as I wanted to do a model year vs mileage analysis. That's got to be an error as there are repair miles less than 100 miles with the repair made date long after the 2009 MY. Well, it's certainly not the first error in VW's data and likely won't be the last.:rolleyes:

Example:
VIN....................................RepairDate.........RepairMiles
3VWRL71K69MXXXXXX.........3/31/2012.....................7
3VWRL71K69MXXXXXX..........6/20/2012....................9

Edit: Forget to mention that Passats are not included in the production data spreadsheet. Vehicles included are:
A3
Audi Q7
Jetta
Golf
Touareg
 
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KonaJack

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2011 VW Golf
Some great info here in VWGA response to NHTSA dated Novemebr 30,2012, and VW concludes: "THE DESIGN AND PERFORMANCE OF THE TDI CLEAN DIESEL HPFP DOES NOT REPRESENT ANY MATERIAL DEFECT", and "THERE IS NO DEFECT RELATED TO MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY WITH THE SUBJECT HPFP.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf

Some very noteful points:

1. TDI Production figures for 2009-2012 noted (37,889 jetts in 2009)
2. 579 Complaints with 532 Unique VINs on this issue
3. 5,891 (wow) Field Reports with 5,208 Unique VINs on this issue
4. VW claims less than 1% of incidents were determined to be manufacturing related.
5. VW found that out of 827 Diesel Fuel smples collected from throughout the U.S. about 25% were OUT OF ATSM specifications and therefore the HPFP "may not have been properly lubricated"
6. 7% of fule samples were detected with lubricity that did not meet the HPFP's nominal tolerance and may have caused increased wear.
7. 4 samples contained water which could damage the pump and cause rust and corrosion
8. 30% of Diesel showed flashpoints below ASTM specs, a good indicator of possible gasoline contamination.
9. VW called out biodiesel; stating that just under 10% showed more than 5% biodiesel (exceeding VW guidelines) and that while not DIRECTLY damaging the HPFP, deteriorated or aged Bio can CAUSE DEPOSITS AND CLOG FILTERS, thereby leading to HPFP FAILURE.

VW seems to be standing behind the theory that misfueling is the predominant reason for the performance-related inquiries and any outside influence (Fuel quality etc) is beyond their control or responsibility. VW also concludes that "ASTM specification ULSD fuel is generally reflected in the U.S. fuel supply". I guess VW figures 25% of stations being below spec is not substantive. All we need to do is avoid the 30% of stations that show signs of gasoline contamination and the 25% whose fuel is out of spec and we'll be fine. Seems reasonable to me.
 
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AGOODHI

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NorCal
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MKVII GSW, MKVI Golf
Some great info here in VWGA response to NHTSA dated Novemebr 30,2012, and VW concludes: "THE DESIGN AND PERFORMANCE OF THE TDI CLEAN DIESEL HPFP DOES NOT REPRESENT ANY MATERIAL DEFECT", and "THERE IS NO DEFECT RELATED TO MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY WITH THE SUBJECT HPFP.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf

Some very noteful points:

1. TDI Production figures for 2009-2012 noted (37,889 jetts in 2009)
2. 579 Complaints with 532 Unique VINs on this issue
3. 5,891 (wow) Field Reports with 5,208 Unique VINs on this issue
4. VW claims less than 1% of incidents were determined to be manufacturing related.
5. VW found that out of 827 Diesel Fuel smples collected from throughout the U.S. about 25% were OUT OF ATSM specifications and therefore the HPFP "may not have been properly lubricated"
6. 7% of fule samples were detected with lubricity that did not meet the HPFP's nominal tolerance and may have caused increased wear.
7. 4 samples contained water which could damage the pump and cause rust and corrosion
8. 30% of Diesel showed flashpoints below ASTM specs, a good indicator of possible gasoline contamination.
9. VW called out biodiesel; stating that just under 10% showed more than 5% biodiesel (exceeding VW guidelines) and that while not DIRECTLY damaging the HPFP, deteriorated or aged Bio can CAUSE DEPOSITS AND CLOG FILTERS, thereby leading to HPFP FAILURE.

VW seems to be standing behind the theory that misfueling is the predominant reason for the performance-related inquiries and any outside influence (Fuel quality etc) is beyond their control or responsibility. VW also concludes that "ASTM specification ULSD fuel is generally reflected in the U.S. fuel supply". I guess VW figures 25% of stations being below spec is not substantive. All we need to do is avoid the 30% of stations that show signs of gasoline contamination and the 25% whose fuel is out of spec and we'll be fine. Seems reasonable to me.
Wow, I'll have to keep a number for CA Department Of Measurement Standards handy (to file a complaint) and a small bottle for samples if there are any indications of a HPFP failure. Since I only drive diesel vehicles (and no one else drives my TDI), the chances of a mis-fuel on my part is very low for me.

--Ryan
 

tuan209

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Location
SLC
TDI
11 Golf TDI
Update

VW has finally agreed to fix the fuel pump. Got the call from VWoA interestingly.
 

seamus19066

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2010 sportwagon
Some great info here in VWGA response to NHTSA dated Novemebr 30,2012, and VW concludes: "THE DESIGN AND PERFORMANCE OF THE TDI CLEAN DIESEL HPFP DOES NOT REPRESENT ANY MATERIAL DEFECT", and "THERE IS NO DEFECT RELATED TO MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY WITH THE SUBJECT HPFP.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf

Some very noteful points:

1. TDI Production figures for 2009-2012 noted (37,889 jetts in 2009)
2. 579 Complaints with 532 Unique VINs on this issue
3. 5,891 (wow) Field Reports with 5,208 Unique VINs on this issue
4. VW claims less than 1% of incidents were determined to be manufacturing related.
5. VW found that out of 827 Diesel Fuel smples collected from throughout the U.S. about 25% were OUT OF ATSM specifications and therefore the HPFP "may not have been properly lubricated"
6. 7% of fule samples were detected with lubricity that did not meet the HPFP's nominal tolerance and may have caused increased wear.
7. 4 samples contained water which could damage the pump and cause rust and corrosion
8. 30% of Diesel showed flashpoints below ASTM specs, a good indicator of possible gasoline contamination.
9. VW called out biodiesel; stating that just under 10% showed more than 5% biodiesel (exceeding VW guidelines) and that while not DIRECTLY damaging the HPFP, deteriorated or aged Bio can CAUSE DEPOSITS AND CLOG FILTERS, thereby leading to HPFP FAILURE.

VW seems to be standing behind the theory that misfueling is the predominant reason for the performance-related inquiries and any outside influence (Fuel quality etc) is beyond their control or responsibility. VW also concludes that "ASTM specification ULSD fuel is generally reflected in the U.S. fuel supply". I guess VW figures 25% of stations being below spec is not substantive. All we need to do is avoid the 30% of stations that show signs of gasoline contamination and the 25% whose fuel is out of spec and we'll be fine. Seems reasonable to me.
This is the exact point I tried to make earlier. So VW NOW knows they designed a fuel system and pump that cannot survive in REAL world conditions!!! Typical german engineer mentality....they are never wrong!!!! It's the fuel!!!! This is a load of cr##! They make a gas powered car that has a computer to tune the engine to real gasoline. So if your octane rating is not accurate it retards timing so the car doesn't sustain damage from detonation. Yes you the consumer/owner put in required 92 octane from the tank but it was 87, your knock sensor detects it and the computer retards timing and your car just doesn't run optimally but it doesn't blow up!!!!! So they are testing American fuel instead of realizing they designed a fuel system that cannot survive it's environment. Looks like they want to win the lawsuit and blame the fuel not their design. So now we the consumer have to take into account engineering of the product???? Not reasonable.
 

seamus19066

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Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2010 sportwagon
Update

VW has finally agreed to fix the fuel pump. Got the call from VWoA interestingly.
Interesting! Congrats. I couldn't imagine you having a problem but then again.....

We are having a major problem w/ the Corvette c6 ZO6 LS7 motor. Alot of motors are grenading after an exhaust valve lets go. 14K motor on a flagship car. 6 years it's going on many motors. Most all warrantied. GM admits nothing. But the corvette forum started a thread sticky regarding the failures.

You got it...GM monitored the site and bad press. Zo6 sales slowed. Only 518 sold in 2010. There is a 5yr/100k warranty but no extended warranty offered by them!! But they have a customer service rep on the site now posting and helping to some degree. So this site can make a difference and be heard.
 

luked

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Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Location
Indianapolis, IN
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal Edition, 2013 JSW TDI SE
This is the exact point I tried to make earlier. So VW NOW knows they designed a fuel system and pump that cannot survive in REAL world conditions!!! Typical german engineer mentality....they are never wrong!!!! It's the fuel!!!! This is a load of cr##! They make a gas powered car that has a computer to tune the engine to real gasoline. So if your octane rating is not accurate it retards timing so the car doesn't sustain damage from detonation. Yes you the consumer/owner put in required 92 octane from the tank but it was 87, your knock sensor detects it and the computer retards timing and your car just doesn't run optimally but it doesn't blow up!!!!! So they are testing American fuel instead of realizing they designed a fuel system that cannot survive it's environment. Looks like they want to win the lawsuit and blame the fuel not their design. So now we the consumer have to take into account engineering of the product???? Not reasonable.
I both agree and disagree with this.

It's not VW's fault that diesel sucks here. All of the fuel contamination claims should get kicked back to the fueling stations. I don't really feel like VW should pay for any of them, though I do believe that they should deal with all of the paperwork for people when this happens because it's a responsible thing for a huge corporation to do. This is particularly true because these are going start to occur outside of VW's warranty (like when I get contaminated diesel 5 years from now at 90k miles), if VW has procedures in place to help out with this it would be incredible. I almost think that some lawyers should set up a national campaign for this sort of thing.

On the other hand, it would have been nice if VW built in some protection for this issue, and maybe they have in the newer models.
 
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