Another BRM Cam victim

[Jnitrofish]

Buy the cam / crank lockdown tools from http://www.metalnerd.com/ A trusted TDIclub vendor!

The BEW cam seems fine. I really don't notice a difference in power. Having said that, I think it is more of an issue where the original cam was down on power, leading up to the failure.

Haven't run enough fuel to check MPG, yet.

If you want the power back, Frank says to work with Malone tuning (was Alligator tuning) and that'll give you the power back (and maybe a little more). Once the wife is back to work, I'll probably get a tune.

Tony

I would have to back up that statement.

Having just put a BEW (albeit a Colt BEW Stage II) in my car too, I was down on power before, and now I have more power, but in comparison to my old BRM (totaled) with a new stock BRM cam (burning rubber and fogging soot without a tune), maybe slightly less power. I'm definitely looking in to getting a Malone tune when I have some spare cash.

More power is always better right?

 

[knuther]

i have the tools for locking down the cam / crank for belt assembley.. but the walk through on myturbodiesel.com shows him useing a snapon tool to remove the gear from the cam.

anyway i went back and forth about this had a talk with frank thrus morning and discussed that i needed to order somthing by the end of the day and never received any quotes so i ordered stock BRM cam kit from metalmanparts.


I know everyones theroy's i have changed my mind up10 different ways i think the thing that is doing it for me staying with a stock cam is that the duration on the injector is different on the brm vs bew the loss of power but a tune required to bump back up and the non tested lifespan of a colt regrind and with the ability to control exacally what oil i put in it i will control my desitny with the newer black lifters.. Maybe we expect to much out of these little buggers.. who knows.. I do know that VW dosnt want to make a engine that will go 1million miles between work because you would never purchase another car.. it is the one reason i went to hondas then went away from them becuase of how my 07 civic was made. i love the honda engine.. hate the way they make cars now..

but this car currently has 119k on it... and the wear is just happening now... its just 1mm or so down where its creating sharp edges on cyl 1 and 4. I am thinking i dont know how many more miles i want to put on it and in the mean time let the 09+ run past 100k to see how they preform and see how long the colt cams holdup..

i only want to break her open like this once.. so i guess its my choice.. not to be in the top end for another hundred k .. or so i hope.

 

[tactdi]

i have the tools for locking down the cam / crank for belt assembley.. but the walk through on myturbodiesel.com shows him useing a snapon tool to remove the gear from the cam.

anyway i went back and forth about this had a talk with frank thrus morning and discussed that i needed to order somthing by the end of the day and never received any quotes so i ordered stock BRM cam kit from metalmanparts.

I am also looking at replacing my cam. Did you determine that the snapon gear tool was needed (or would a typical gear puller work)? Also, will the cam turning tool used for the TB change hold the cam so the nut can be removed?

 

[TonyJetta]

Don't bother buying more tools....Use a brass drift and a hammer to tap the cam pulley off. Unless you don't have a hammer or brass drift.

Be careful around the edge, as you might bend the edge (sensor ring) with the drift. BTW...that's how we get the pulley off from the 1Z/AHU/ALH motors.

It'll come right off.

Tony

 

[TonyJetta]

On thing I forgot to mention...Setting the injectors to the cam lobe peaks.

You'll need the following:
1) Dial indicator
1) Magnetic base w/ Extension arm & arm mounts/clamps

I don't have their mag base w/ extension arm. It looks like it comes as a single purchase item.


If you don't have one, you'll need a dial indicator for resetting the injecotrs to the cam lobe peaks. A harbor freight dial indicator and base that I linked above, will work fine.

For the base: Use a 1" wide by 2" long by ~1/8" thick piece of aluminum, with 2 holes in it. One hole is to mount the staff from the magnetic base you just bought. The other hole is to mount the base to a valve cover bolt. If this does not make sense, I can take a picture for you.

At this point, just follow the procedure in the Bentley manual.

It took me about 2-3 cam revolutions with the dial indicator riding on the injector spring retainer, to get used to the indicator, and to find the low point, which is full travel. Using a ratchet with the appropriate allen, tighten (take up slack) the injector adjustment, until it gets tight. Use a light touch - you'll feel it. Then back off 225 degrees: 180 + 45. Torque to Bentley specs.

Tony

 

[knuther]

I came to the realization that yes the special tools were not needed. i also came to the conclusion that allthough i had 4 lobes wearing 3 were not causeing any issue on the lifters.. but the exhaust lobe on cyl 4 was dished and material was being removed.. very fine.. dip but from the way it looks here i would say that yea it was a good move to replace it when i did... being open. I am waiting on the cam still .. should be here tommarow then i will work on it. I did the whole turn 90 degree's TDC to remove the cam without needing to remove the vacume pump.. see if that works going back together as smooth as it did coming out.


but i got this 06 package 1 manual with 119k miles on it for 7800 after a cam / belt ... i would say i still got a good enoughf deal... But realizeing what i had when i had it ... belt was out of time never been changed lobes were wearing and performace was off it would die letting out the clutch in first fairly easy.. to easy.. This is my first german/mexican car and first diesel to boot got turned onto them from my boss who is a diesel lover..

and btw leatherette does not breath... gotta get the windows tinted for summer sun / parking lot warms it up so hot that my back melts on the way home..

 

[TonyJetta]

I did the whole turn 90 degree's TDC to remove the cam without needing to remove the vacume pump.. see if that works going back together as smooth as it did coming out.

Yes, it does! Even though my car sat for 2 weeks, it started right up, and I throttled it up to 2500rpm, which is what you want for breaking in a new cam.

More helpful hints:
1) Install / Rotate the cam carefully so that lobes on cyl #1 are pointing up. Don't forget the cam seal!
2) Don't install the cam bearing journal caps just yet.
3) Be careful rotating the crank back to TDC so as to not squish valves.
4) Install & torque the cam caps. Make sure to hit them HARD, after torquing, with a dead blow hammer. That seats the bearings nicely. Ask Frank, if you are unsure.
5) Double check the cam seal.
6) Resume installation of all the bits & peices.


Tony

 

[tactdi]

I ordered a BRM cam kit, and noticed in the parts description, that the kit includes a EU (European Union?) cam, and that the VW OEM cam was more than $300 more.

Is this EU cam the cam that most people have been installing? I would not have a problem installing this aftermarket cam, but was wondering what peoples impression of the cam is. Quality comparision to the OEM?

 

[TonyJetta]

Who did you buy the kit from?

What is the part number on the cam? EU could be a part number suffix.

Tony

 

[Crosley]

Interesting read on the replacement of the cam and related parts.

My 2006 Jetta has 106k miles on it. I do not plan on removal of the cam cover for a look see. When the engine starts acting poorly, then I will look

 

[eddif]

Interesting read on the replacement of the cam and related parts.

My 2006 Jetta has 106k miles on it. I do not plan on removal of the cam cover for a look see. When the engine starts acting poorly, then I will look

You have made the choice of thousands.

I had 107,000 miles US when I pulled my valve cover. 107,200 miles more and I had little copper streaks. 107,300 miles I had copper streaks and small raw wear streaks (tiny). I parked the car got cam bearings, installed them, polished off the streaks (very light wipe not rough). I now have 142,000 miles US on the same cam. You can see my polishing marks (400 grit ?).

I just pulled the VC by Grace. 1,000 more miles and it would not have mattered (too late). I suggest as an option for others (Crosley has already made his decision)----you might consider changing the cam bearings at the first belt change (if you have no wear). May be a waste, but if youur cam fails at 120,000 miles you might wish you had.

Of course blapping used to be the sound your air-cooled VW had pulled the head stud threads out of the magnesium case. If your air-cooled missed one morning till warm; you were warned that the exhaust valve was streaching and you could have a dropped valve soon. I used to buy torn up, or worn air-cooled beetles. If they had about 50,000 miles on them I would yank the engine put in exhaust valves and wait till the block was worn and needed main bearings (low oil pressure). I never had an air-cooled drop a valve for me, but I fixed a lot that did have dropped valves. If you waited till the valve dropped you probably had:
A bent rod
A hole in the top of the case
A destroyed piston and cylinder
A head that needed welding
Sometimes a destroyed follower bore where the valve head landed and was hit by the crankshaft
Possibly some pulled head studs.
Trash to clean out of the oil system

We have really made progress. We still wait for misses and bupping to make decisions. Now bupping is the sound your TDI PD has a flat cam lobe and worn through follower.

eddif

 

[Bob S.]

Interesting read on the replacement of the cam and related parts.

My 2006 Jetta has 106k miles on it. I do not plan on removal of the cam cover for a look see. When the engine starts acting poorly, then I will look

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Plenty of high milage PD going strong. You may be the owner of one. Inspect at the T-belt change. If it starts giving trouble, contact FrankO or one of the other trusted vendors. He/they can fix you up with what you need.

 

[TonyJetta]

I agree with Bob. In this case, let it run to fail. I don't see the value in everyone pulling their valve cover every 5k miles to see bearing and lifter/lobe wear. That's just an exercise in anticipation. I also do not see this as preventative maintenance. You are just waiting and watching until it fails.

If you feel better about the motor, then check it as often as you like. I can't afford that much time, between family, work, and what little time I can put into hobbies. Crap, it's been 1.5years since I've been out fishing!

Drive more worry less, and be prepared as best as possible when the cam lobe/bearings wear out.

And, no I am not suggesting we just roll over and take this from VW. But, when the factory warranty runs out, we are our own warranty. If there's a viable improvement to put into the cam bearings/lobe profile, I am all for it. As of right now, it's mostly speculation with a little fact & analysis behind it. The factory high mileage cars are just starting to fail in numbers; some of the early aftermarket fixes are just starting to get into the 60-80k range where the failure modes can be examined for improvement.

Bottom line: The jury is still out and opinions are running rampant. That's why I went the conservative route for my repair.

Tony

 

[Crosley]

I am coming up on 40 years working on cars privately and professionally. I never skimp on maintenance.

Our Jetta has received all the proper maintenance, proper oil changes have been at 6000 - 7500 miles. I searched out and found - used only 5w-40 oil 505.01 since AZ is hot usually

Freeway is 1.5 miles from house every morning, when I get on the freeway I am on the throttle for 35 miles.

When this Jetta wears out , it will be towed away if the cost of repair is too high in my mind

 

[Mach1]

Tony, give me a call and I will haul it away for ya..I will even give ya $1000 cash..

 

[eddif]

I am coming up on 40 years working on cars privately and professionally. I never skimp on maintenance.

Our Jetta has received all the proper maintenance, proper oil changes have been at 6000 - 7500 miles. I searched out and found - used only 5w-40 oil 505.01 since AZ is hot usually

Freeway is 1.5 miles from house every morning, when I get on the freeway I am on the throttle for 35 miles.

When this Jetta wears out , it will be towed away if the cost of repair is too high in my mind

I do not mean this as an argument (although it my thoughts are different from yours and others). The German mindset seems to be (go through the engine every now and then and replace any wearing parts, or parts known to fail). It is much like the aircraft maintenance program. You physically check some areas of the engine (especially those areas with known wear histories or problems).

Most people check brake pad wear as part of their maintenance program (known wear area). Sometimes you even remove a wheel to see clearer. There have been a few brand tires that were replaced after so many miles to prevent problems with internal cord seperation (sometimes on recall) etc.

Cam bearings in the TDI PD, IMHO, are one of the wear areas that can not be seen and checked easily. I can pull and check mine in 2 hours with no problem. I can replace them in the same time frame. After seeing how bad the stock, belt end, cam bearing can wear in 5,000 miles, I consider it a definite wear item. My BEW cam running position is different than a BRM, and a lot of my thoughts are geared to BEWs.

This thread is a definite help (one approach) for those who need to replace a cam. There is just ,IMHO, another approach than waiting for failure.

Run to failure you dump 2 teaspoons of wear material for each ruined follower (bupping failure).

You do not have to check the cam but once. If it is good replace the cam bearings and wait thousands of miles. I had to do the short inspections to establish what goes on. After the knowledge of the wear story, you just use that information. Checking the wear every week does not do any good. Replacing the cam bearings before wear is the other option. If none of the repair shops will support this thought, then I do seem to be one voice. One voice that has a cam with an additional 35,000 miles of wear free service. The lite damage I had may show up later (tomorrow?) and cause failure.

eddif

 

[TonyJetta]

MPG results are in, and look promising:
1st tank average: 30mpg - not so good, but had 1/2hr of 2500rpm to break in the cam
2nd tank, only marginally better: 32.5mpg
3rd tank: 33mpg

Yesterday, had to do a turnaround trip to Phoenix: 125 miles all freeway check, 39mpg.

Everything is looking good!

Thanks to all that helped!

Tony

 

[TonyJetta]

Well, it appears the BEW cam is vulnerable, too. Even with ZDDP!
Heard the tell-tale 'bupping' sound last weekend. Checked the cam today and found the chamfer near the apex of #1 exhaust lobe to be gone.
Looks like I'll be ordering a BRM kit with Frank's cut bearings tomorrow from Bora Parts!

Tony
Sent from my e-diesel fleet

 

[GreenLantern_TDI]

So you used a BEW cam in your BRM to try to slow wear and it ate it? How many miles? How do you feel about all that?

 

[TonyJetta]

Insert smart comment here...

I got 98k miles out of it.

Tony
Sent from my e-diesel fleet

 

[James & Son]

Tony,
I am trying to reach a hundred thousand miles with my second cam replaced by dealer under warranty in late 2009 at only 83000 kilometers. I am now at 224000 kilometers but have replaced exhaust followers on exhaust #1 and #2 twice or every third oil change.

I blame the problem with my cam on excessive rough grind that took to about 45000 miles to get the nose broke in. Once the nose was broke in then i feel the base circle roughness was wearing the black coating out as well which because of its large diameter of over 2 inches is a lot of surface for the hydraulic follower to drag against.

I found #1 and #2 exhaust are fine until the black coating wears through and galls the very center of the follower 2-3 mm even though the total wear area was about 16mm. This happens at 30 to 35 thousand miles thus the reason to replace every third oil change. Very frustrating as the base circle is only now starting to smooth out some. My #1 and #2 exhaust lobe measures 2.4295 and the rest measure 2.430 to 2.431
new spec. is 2.430/2.432

If you can get it to break thru the coating with out galling and tearing metal I think you are safe and any minor scoring will heal itself as i have the majority of the followers doing just that.

Since you did the proper breakin then all I can say is your cam in general was to rough to breakin properly and wore out the black coating before a proper oil film developed to prevent the galling at break thru of the black coating.

I am only bringing this up as this is a challenge that I want to say I beat. I had my hands on a colt stage 2 not more than a year ago but I sent it back. I bought the cheapest BRM cam I could find on the net just as a challenge, so I can say I solve the problem even though the body rusting out will probably be more the problem than the cam.

 

[TonyJetta]

Thanks for the input.

The kit I'm buying is from Bora Parts. It includes a chromed camshaft. Not because it's pretty, but because the chrome is a surface hardening that should help with cam life. The kit also includes Frank's modified bearings. I skipped this last time because it was literally cutting edge at the time. Now, it seems to be a defacto aspect of prevention.

Tony
Sent from my e-diesel fleet

 

[turbocharged798]

Well, it appears the BEW cam is vulnerable, too. Even with ZDDP!
Heard the tell-tale 'bupping' sound last weekend. Checked the cam today and found the chamfer near the apex of #1 exhaust lobe to be gone.
Looks like I'll be ordering a BRM kit with Frank's cut bearings tomorrow from Bora Parts!

Tony
Sent from my e-diesel fleet

What oil?

Our stock BEW has almost 200K and the OE cam still looks like brand new....

 

[icecap]

I am only bringing this up as this is a challenge that I want to say I beat. I had my hands on a colt stage 2 not more than a year ago but I sent it back. I bought the cheapest BRM cam I could find on the net just as a challenge, so I can say I solve the problem even though the body rusting out will probably be more the problem than the cam.

Phew, that is a relief. I read your posts in the past and was under the impression that you installed the Colt Stage 2 cam. I replaced mine with the Colt 2 last June using the correct break in procedure, moly zinc assembly lube and Shaeffer break in oil for 500 miles followed by an oil change with 505.01 spec Lubro Moly 10-40 and a bottle of ZDDP. I don't have a long commute anymore so I've only put on 12K since last June. I intend to do an oil change at 15K or June whichever comes first.

Next oil change I will switch to Shell Rotella T6 or Mobil 1 TDT I haven't decided yet depending on the price at the time at WalMart lol. I intend to keep adding ZDDP. Out of curiosity I just took an oil sample I'm sending off on Monday since I'd like to know how well the break in went and have better things to do with my time than to pull the valve cover again for no reason other than curiosity.

Oil sampling in the past tipped me off that my cam was beginning to fail while I was still in the last 6 months of my conventional warranty and got so bad during my 2 year VW extended that it fell in to the category of "unacceptable and failure in progress" which VW refused to fix since "I had no symptoms".

At any rate I'm quite happy with the way the car is running now, its smooth and the mileage seems to have improved since I'm getting close to 1,000 Km's to a tank highway. My original Michelin Energy MXV4 tires finally wore down to the wear bar and a week ago when the snow tires came off I replaced them with Nokian eNTYRE's which I like even more than the Michelin tires they replaced. I may just keep this car for another 150K.

 

[GreenLantern_TDI]

I too installed Colt 2 cam. Though i have heard of using a regrind of the bew cam in the brm i decided to go with the 300,000 mile warranty in hopes of the cam out living the car. If not then new cam for me.

 

[Henrick]

Wow. Second cam failure. This is really strange.

Tony, what oil were you using?
How much ZDDP did you add and when?
What were your OCIs?
Care to describe your driving style? e.g. city/highway percentag, average speed...

 

[Spiked1Z]

Tony,
I am trying to reach a hundred thousand miles with my second cam replaced by dealer under warranty in late 2009 at only 83000 kilometers. I am now at 224000 kilometers but have replaced exhaust followers on exhaust #1 and #2 twice or every third oil change.

I blame the problem with my cam on excessive rough grind that took to about 45000 miles to get the nose broke in. Once the nose was broke in then i feel the base circle roughness was wearing the black coating out as well which because of its large diameter of over 2 inches is a lot of surface for the hydraulic follower to drag against.

I found #1 and #2 exhaust are fine until the black coating wears through and galls the very center of the follower 2-3 mm even though the total wear area was about 16mm. This happens at 30 to 35 thousand miles thus the reason to replace every third oil change. Very frustrating as the base circle is only now starting to smooth out some. My #1 and #2 exhaust lobe measures 2.4295 and the rest measure 2.430 to 2.431
new spec. is 2.430/2.432

If you can get it to break thru the coating with out galling and tearing metal I think you are safe and any minor scoring will heal itself as i have the majority of the followers doing just that.

Since you did the proper breakin then all I can say is your cam in general was to rough to breakin properly and wore out the black coating before a proper oil film developed to prevent the galling at break thru of the black coating.

I am only bringing this up as this is a challenge that I want to say I beat. I had my hands on a colt stage 2 not more than a year ago but I sent it back. I bought the cheapest BRM cam I could find on the net just as a challenge, so I can say I solve the problem even though the body rusting out will probably be more the problem than the cam.

Have you thought about trying Franks cut Bearings? servicing the bearings every 30K is impressive dedication my friend. what oil are you using?

 

[icecap]

Next oil change I will switch to Shell Rotella T6 or Mobil 1 TDT I haven't decided yet depending on the price at the time at WalMart lol. I intend to keep adding ZDDP. Out of curiosity I just took an oil sample I'm sending off on Monday since I'd like to know how well the break in went and have better things to do with my time than to pull the valve cover again for no reason other than curiosity.

Just got my oil sample results via *.pdf attached email. My oil has about 11K Km's on it now and my new Colt Stage 2 cam has 11.5K Km's. I've been running Lubro Moly Top Tec 4200 5W-40 with an added a bottle of ZDDP.

My oil sample came back with amazingly low numbers in all wear metals and test results were even marginally better than those when the car was just broken in, in its first few years of service.

I didn't have a baseline test of un-used Lubro Moly to evaluate its additive package but was blown away by the comparison to previous sample of Castrol TXT and SLX compared to the Top Tec with an added bottle of ZDDP. My Zinc and Phosphorus levels were triple what the Castrol (but without ZDDP) indicated and this sample for the first time showed the presence of Boron.

I'm quite pleased that the new cam broke in well with minimal wear.

 

[James & Son]

The first 20 minutes to one hour is where the major wear or breakin happens if the cam is ground properly. One of the aspects of a proper preparation is to have a coating to facilitate breakin. That coating may be a moly grease or it may be parkerized (manganese phosphate) and the new kid on the block is DLC, diamond/carbon like coating. These are all a type of solid lubricant to get thru the first 5 to 10 minutes of cam life without galling. Zddp may not even come into play for 15 to 30 minutes after fire up and takes pressure and heat to develop the sacrificial sheets that also prevent galling after the initial breakin.

To really know how the cam is doing you will want to have another analysis at 80,000 kilometers and then one at 160,000 kilometers. If they check out then you got through the critical period when the black carbon coating wears through and at some point you are now relying on an oil film and your additive package to minimize wear and of course the sooner the better in that regards.

The cam is very hard at at least 58 RC because of the need to support the injection roller. The carbon coating is quite thick for DLC but ralatively soft as it will transfer to the lobe and that is when you see this transfer as black elliptical rings on the nose of the cam. This transfer of coating is necessary to reduce friction and is well documented in the many studies now on the internet. Some of the harder DLC must be very thin or they create surface stress and fracture. The type of dlc we have is ralatively softer and therefore slightly thicker allowing for the reduced breakin stress of the cam lobe.

It is now obvious from the OP that his cam problems are more than injector lobe related as that is the only difference between the Brm and Bew cam, the bew injector lobe being .010 inch shorter not much of an effect if you consider the injector springs are 200/250 lb per inch and .010 inch reduced compression amounts to 2 or 3 lbs.

 

[bl00tdi]

In you all's opinion, what do you think of the smaller gear of the BRM oil pump and its potential effect on cam running position relative to the oil slot, and therefore oil flow to the followers? That's the third major mechanical difference between the BEW/BRM other than the injectors and cam.