Another BRM Cam victim

[eddif]

The 36HP air cooled VWs were a non rotating lifter. Not that any may care, but just for historical information.

The use of instant 2,000 RPM was used in engines with high spring pressures and in non-interference engines. Even if someone had pre over-pumped lifters they would probably do no harm.

I fooled with SBCs and always turned the oil pump before the engine ever turned over, to make sure the oil was everywhere it was supposed to be. I also used cam lube and did use moderate high idle speeds (about 2000 RPM to break-in cams. I was using a Duntov solid lifter 1010 and had no problems. I usually had everything set at fire up time: valves, timing, all fluids full and double checked. I would start up elevate speed, re-check water level and hit the road for ring break-in. Was I right? I do not know, but I had no failures.

The conflict in the VW TDI PD comes with the inability to set valve clearance before start up. The first short time that oil pressure is up, usually normalizes the clearance issue. If you go to 2,000 RPM you could have some pretty good valve clatter the first few seconds (but no valve piston contact if everything is ok). The idle time VW chose is to make sure no piston valve contact happens and no severe valve clatter happens. IMHO... There are conflicts in the PD: no way to set valve clearance and need for elevated RPM for follower break-in (silver top followers ?).

Peace
eddif

 

[Bob S.]

Don't use more than 1800 ppm of ZDDP. It attacks iron

In my own conclusion , there are few things to blame.

the engine design ( too much stress on cam bearings ) , narrow cam lobes , possible underhardened cams and weak 505.01 oil

The lobes wear out first , then the lifters since they are not rotating anymore.

at the end , even with a properly hardened cam and superb oil , the inevitable cam/lifter wear will show up . It might take 300K but it will happen

It's a simple matter of physics, coupled with microscopic analysis; let alone decades of experience of those that have learned the hard way. But then *** do I know eh? (to quote Harv) Did it for too long (almost 20 years) and yet nothing has really changed. I'd say "Later" but then Harv would surely slam me!

Opinions vary greatly. When it comes to camshaft failure opinions abound. A professional cam maker believes to have found a significant defect in the base circle-to-ramp transition on the lobe profile of the BEW/BRM sticks. He's been grinding cams for many many years. Has the technology. Has the capability. Has the theory and mathematics to back up his theory. Nobody listens.....

IMHO, with all this shouting, bashing of VW, endless reposting of the same photos, urging owners to inspect bearings on a 1k to 5K interval that is being taken as gospel , it is no surprise that a bit of technology, theory, math and experience of someone who would probably qualify as an expert witness (if he is not already so qualified) is being lost in all the noise.

Thanks for bring a bit of sanity to the subject.

 

[TonyJetta]

Bob, I agree. There's too much regurgitaton of information and it winds up convoluting and confusing real and new information that would otherwise be useful.

Tony

 

[hid3]

Bob, I guess that mathematician should prove practically that his mods are efficient and prevent failures.

 

[AD5GB]

Bob, I guess that mathematician should prove practically that his mods are efficient and prevent failures.

He's not a mathematician per se, but a camshaft manufacturer that understands the geometry and trig and the dynamics of the different valvetrains, differences between the characteristics of solid, hydraulic, mushroom and roller tappets. He's got 25+ years experience at it as well. Stay tuned. I'll likely be installing his stage II stick at T/B change time. If for nothing more than the added HP and torque and gentler injector lobe profile.

 

[indy_tdi]

Have I missed the pictures? Seven pages of thread, several promises of pictures. What up?

 

[AD5GB]

Have I missed the pictures? Seven pages of thread, several promises of pictures. What up?

Are you behind a firewall that blocks images? There are several pictures in this thread. Way too many more in other related ones.

 

[indy_tdi]

I guess I dont know how to find TonyJetta's picture gallery. I have studied with great interest eddif's pictures. I have 78K on mine, due for an oil change at 80K. Planning at taking a look at the cam to see if my timing belt change will be a cam change as well at 90K

 

[eddif]

I guess I dont know how to find TonyJetta's picture gallery. I have studied with great interest eddif's pictures. I have 78K on mine, due for an oil change at 80K. Planning at taking a look at the cam to see if my timing belt change will be a cam change as well at 90K

Sorry if there is confusion.
POST #58 has some TonyJetta pictures. He was having problems so I posted some of his pictures for him. Every time you see your #1 etc that is his pictures in post 58.

Have you signed up for a picture gallery account? If you have signed up look in the general search engine in the gallery and type in TonyJetta.

eddif

 

[TonyJetta]

OK...lets try the photos again...

Cyl#1:


Cyl#2:


Cyl#3:


Cyl#4:


I'll take some pics of the cam tonight or tomorrow.

Tony

 

[mobiledaveb]

Given all the nice encouraging posts lately toward eddif, you sure are brave to ask me anything. Thanks for asking, and I appologise to Mach1 up front.

The original oil for the PD was a partially rated CF oil. I am just now understanding what that means. The CF oil (and I would have to look up where this statement came from) is for IDIs with copper, brass, bronze (?) (I believe) bushing etc. We have problems with copper so it is possible the oil met those needs. Everything changes and so now the additives are changing.

I support Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 oil, as a minimum viscosity oil. I also support using Mobil 1 15W-50 mixed with the TDT for hot weather. What ratio is being tested now. I tend to test what I talk about and I have almost straight 15W-50 in the car now.

The testing thing on ZDDP is interesting. If I am going to make a statement I am going to try it. No use to make glorious eddif statements and not give it a whirl. I tried 5000 parts per million of ZDDP to see what would happen (Hot Rod break-in level for flat tappets and high spring levels). I had copper all over everywhere. Streaks were forming on many lobes. I got a sneaky idea that this is related to ZDDP. Railroad engines (some) use under 30 parts per million ZDDP. Not 1200 but below 30. It is my opinion (not worth much sometimes), that due to the copper being forced into contact with the cam journal lobes we can not tolerate much ZDDP. I think ZDDP bonds to the cam journals at high levels. How much ZDDP....I do not know. That is what the CF oil might have helped. I do not know. So I bought 5 bottles of ZDDP that is sitting on a shelf. With thicker oil keeping the cam bearings from wearing, and giving a thicker hydrodynamic film, I may use it later.

I do not know what the reaction of black followers is to ZDDP. Sorry I will not hazard a guess. I did tell the long ZDDP test results.

Good luck. Little idle time then bring RPMs up.

eddif

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and recommendations. I had the DMF replaced yesterday and Cam replaced today. I pick the car up in the AM. My mechanic said the cam wasn't terrible, just an fairly worn exhaust lobe. He said the bearings were pretty worn and the followers nicely "dimpled" as he put it. He has a lot of experience replacing bad cams (and DMFs). I'll post photos of the pulled parts after I pick up the car. He did a fresh fill of 5w-40 and recommended a similar break-in procedure you outlined: After start and brief idle, brought RPMs up to ~2000 until oil reached operating temperature.

Lets hope I'm good for another 75K at least after today's investment.

Thanks everyone for sharing their perspectives.

 

[Dimitri16V]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and recommendations. I had the DMF replaced yesterday and Cam replaced today. I pick the car up in the AM. My mechanic said the cam wasn't terrible, just an fairly worn exhaust lobe. He said the bearings were pretty worn and the followers nicely "dimpled" as he put it. He has a lot of experience replacing bad cams (and DMFs). I'll post photos of the pulled parts after I pick up the car. He did a fresh fill of 5w-40 and recommended a similar break-in procedure you outlined: After start and brief idle, brought RPMs up to ~2000 until oil reached operating temperature.

Lets hope I'm good for another 75K at least after today's investment.

Thanks everyone for sharing their perspectives.

it gets old dipping into your pocket to keep the VW on the road , doesn't it ?
lets just wait till the CR diesels start aging

 

[Bob S.]

it gets old dipping into your pocket to keep the VW on the road , doesn't it ?
lets just wait till the CR diesels start aging

 

[TonyJetta]

it gets old dipping into your pocket to keep the VW on the road , doesn't it ?

You don't have to tell me! December 2008, I replaced the DSG DMF, in addition to relatively normal maintenance; rear brakes, DSG maintenance, oil change, timing belt, filters.
I certainly don't mind the normal maintenance; it's when I have to pay for VW's inadequate engineering: DMF's (5sp and DSG) and PD camshafts should last a LOT longer than 100k miles.

lets just wait till the CR diesels start aging

That scares me. Granted there are a small number of failures and complaints garner more attention than non-complaints, but classic VW handling of the situation makes the issue worse. The dealerships ignore the issue and blame the owner, rather than taking care of the owner. This is the classic issue that VW deals with. Couple that with relatively low number of diesel engines imported into the US, and the lack of experience that the US dealerships have with diesels, and it's a recipe for disaster that we see a lot of on this site.

Time to get back to work!

Tony

 

[hid3]

it gets old dipping into your pocket to keep the VW on the road , doesn't it ?
lets just wait till the CR diesels start aging

Dimitri, you make REALLY GOOD POINTS!

 

[TonyJetta]

Cam break-in is underway...No leaks! All seems to be going well.

Nice to have wireless internet at the house and vcds on a netbook...At least i'm not bored out of my skull, watching the tach! Oh, and the AC is nice too! Unfortunately, I can't close the windows. It is still nice, nonetheless.

Tony

 

[Franko6]

Ok,

Since I had something to do with all of this, and I can say thank you Tony for the confidence...

There are a few things I'd like to comment about.

1. Joe Gibbs, my preferred break-in oil has around 2700ppm ZDDP, and oh, damn, it's got some lead in there too.. It's an off-road, racing oil. It is not intended for regular use, but has a fast-acting ZDDP. Also, the oil is NON-DETERGENT. The usual detergents in oil work at odds with the effectiveness of the ZDDP.

2. The reason I recommend a break-in with a break-in oil is because every cam manufacturer I know does. It's not MY idea. It's a GOOD idea.

The engine speed is not what I'd call 'high speed', but it is appropriate to do. 1/2 hr at temperature, dump the oil and filter. Refill with the break-in oil and go again for 500 miles. Drive.. don't particularly baby the engine, but don't blow it out either. The ZDDP is activated under heat and load. Work the oil.

Dump the oil and filter. Resume your regular oil at that time.

Also, you want the engine to start and run IMMEDIATELY. Bring it up to rpm and don't stop unless you have strange noises, leaking fluids etc. Which leads to another point...

3. There are cam kits by some vendors that include the tandem pump seal. I don't include that in my kits, because it is not only unnecessary to remove the tandem pump, but it will interfere with start up, as you unnecessarily break into the fueling system.

In order to pull the cam without removal of the tandem pump, bring the engine to TDC. Remove the Timing belt. Rotate the engine crankshaft BACKWARD 90 degrees. Rotate the camshaft 90 degrees. The pistons are out of the way. The cam is rotated so the slot in the tandem pump is vertical. Remove the cam pulley, the rocker shafts and the cam caps. The cam will lift out. Restore in reverse order.

4. I hear lots of comments that there is no cam/ lifter issue. The claim is it's oil abuse or driver abuse.

Usually the ones getting the best wear are in cooler areas. The further South and the hotter it gets, the greater the wear appears to be, especially for the BRMS. Oil analysis has led one Florida customer to go to Amsoil 15-40. Although I am not a proponent of Amsoil, he says his iron went down only after moving to the heavier oil. I absolutely think that 5-30 is a big mistake virtually everywhere except extremely cold climates.

Get a high quality oil, 5-40, intended to be run in the PD's.

5. There has been an issue raised by Colt Cams about the cam profile. As Geoff has told me, discussions with his engineer that creates the cam profiles, the cam appears to have a profile intended for a solid lifter, which means a more abrupt contact at the start of lift. Also, there is a rather abrupt lift on the injector lobe, intended for the mechanical injection done by the unit injector. These two lifts are hard on the cam, lifters, and cam bearings.

Geoff has looked at my modifications, and I have seen his. We both agree with the others mod. His provides better lift. Mine provides better oiling. Between the two modifications, the expectation is increased longevity and performance.

I am stocking Geoff's cams. There is an issue getting enough PD cams. Preemptive repairs; ones where the cam is still able to be reground, will have a core value, or your cam can be reground and returned to you. I stock OEM, PD cams, along with ALH, AHU, and will soon have a stock of Colt ALH and AHU Stage II with more Colt PD Stage II are coming. I currently have a limited supply of PD Stage II cams.


Other than that, I don't like repetitive pictures. I won't go muddling this thread up with any more. I think the descriptions I give are plain enough. Any questions, email me.

 

[Bob S.]

Frank; Thanks for the info.

On Edit: Frank, given that heat appears to be an issue, My sense is to R&R the oil cooler with the largest available. Your thoughts? http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=78993&highlight=large+oil+cooler

 

[TonyJetta]

Frank, thanks for adding valuable information we have talked about. I can't thank you enough for answering my questions last weekend and just your level of support. You are a perfect example of what customer service should be.

The engine / car is finally back together. There were no issues with cam break-in. Drained the JG BR oil and refilled with Lubro-Moly 5W40 and 1 bottle of ZDDP. After I got the covers back on, went for a 40 mile drive down the back roads and the freeway. No issues at all!

Once the wife gets working again, I'll probably get a tune to get the BEW cam performing at BRM specs, and just a little more. It feels like the old car is back again!

I also took some rough measurements surface erosion of the lifters; #1 was at least 0.060" dished. #4 was ~0.020" dished. All the intake lifters seemed find/normal.

I will be posting pics, later today of the #1 exhaust cam lobe. I will also be adding a mini-tip list, to help others that have the mechanical ability to do this work at home. There are a few tools that will help, and others that are required!

Thanks to all!

Tony

 

[TonyJetta]

Here are some pics that I hope will shed a little more light on the failure.

Camshaft, Cylinder #1 Exhaust lobe. Notice how it is rounded over.


Camshaft, Cylinder #4 Exhaust lobe. Notice how it comes to a peak. Sorry it's a little blurry.


Tony

 

[TonyJetta]

As promised, some tips for those who have not done this work, yet need to do it.

1) Buy your parts from Frank! No, i am not a shrill, just a VERY happy customer. And, he will support you as much as possible!
2) The valve cover will NOT come off, until the EGR is out of the way. Remind me to punch the engineer that designed it this way!
3) The picture below shows the top and bottom-left (when looking from the flywheel side of the engine) bolts for the EGR. The bottom bolt is a major PITA. See #4 for the tool.



4) The tool is a generic magnetic 1/4" hex drive adapter that holds a T30 bit. The magnet is required...otherwise you will lose the T30 bit. Use a 1/4" socket with a swivel/universal on the end of a 1/4"x10" extension+socket to drive the screws in. Have some patience.


5) A telescoping inspection mirror.
6) A telescoping magnet pickup tool.
7) Growlers timing belt checklist
8) Metalnerd (or any other) triple-square driver set. You will need them, when pulling the ASV from the EGR and when pulling the injector rocker bolts, and the cam cap bolts.
9) Buy a new EGR flange gasket. Depending on condition, the ASV o-ring, and EGR o-ring may be reusable. In my case, they were.
10) When installing the EGR gasket, leave the three EGR bolts plenty loose. This will allow easier alignment of the EGR feed pie, it's gasket, and the bolts. Install the bolt topside, then torque (10NM) from the bottom with a 3/8" ratchet and 12" extension. Use a wobble adapter; it allows just enough slop to get the allen driver into the bolt head.
11) Pull the plastic belly pan (and skid plate if you have one), and the passenger side front skirt, just like you are replacing a timing belt.
12) When installing the timing belt: Remove the lower idler pulley, and loosen the three cam sprocket bolts, about 3/8"-1/2" This allows the sprocket to wedge at an angle that makes the belt much easier to slip onto the pulley. Try to set the pulley midline in the adjustment slots. This makes it easier to adjust torsion, after the engine is running.
13) Full timing belt tool kit
14) Leave the upper timing belt cover off, until your torsion adjustment is complete.
15) As Frank recommended, buy the Joe Gibbs break in oil. Either buy it from Frank, or find a local engine builder that stocks it. I was able to find it locally, because I did not want the shipment held up due to ground shipping. (Oil cannot be shipped via air)
16) Have 10L of your favorite 5W40 oil, +2 bottle of ZDDP standing by. 5L (4.x) for the 500 mile oil change after break in; flushes oil contaminates and break-in particulates out. And another 5L for the next standard oil change interval, after the 500 mile change. Add 1 bottle of ZDDP for this oil change, then 1 bottle with every oil change after.
17) Have 3 oil filters ready; 1 for JG, 1 for 500 mile, 1 for final fill.

That's all I can regurgitate right now. I'm sure I'll have a few more over the next few days.

Tony

 

[Bob S.]

Tony; Thanks for the info & tips. Am I correct in looking at the photos that your bearing surfaces were pretty decent & that yours was primarily a cam/lift wear problem?

 

[TonyJetta]

Bob,
Yes, it was primarily cam lobe/tappet wear issue. However, the lower half of #1 bearing was showing significant wear due to injector lobe loading and marginal oiling.

Tony

 

[TwoTone]

Not to bust your chops, but I don't remember having to take off the EGR to remove the valve cover.

 

[TonyJetta]

Not to bust your chops, but I don't remember having to take off the EGR to remove the valve cover.

Maybe it was my inexperience. The valve cover would not come off, until I removed the EGR.

Tony

 

[Mach1]

Tony, glad it all worked out for you..the VC will come off W/O EGR removal, you have to shake/move it just right..

 

[TonyJetta]

I was incorrect in my earlier oil statement.

I am using Lubro-Moly 5W40 (article number 2022), and adding 1 bottle of ZDDP per oil change.

Tony

 

[auntulna]

Sorry I got to this thread late, but if others are in this situation, I have a lower cost option:

I have a BRM cam with numbered lifters that was used for 3000 miles in my 05 Passat. I have switched to a BHW cam again. This cam was broken in with Joe Gibbs BR oil, and ran with ZDDP after that. Purchased new from Franko6 and inspected by him when removed. It is completely as good as new, and break-in will not be needed. Asking $300

 

[knuther]

Tony i have a simalar story but i am right at the point before ordering the cam... Can you please let me know if your BEW cam is working out well and if you notice a reduction of power or any MPG issues?

also is there an easier way to remove the cam then to purchase the cam tools from snapon?? i tried to and they are 1 month back ordered on those 2 units

 

[TonyJetta]

Buy the cam / crank lockdown tools from http://www.metalnerd.com/ A trusted TDIclub vendor!

The BEW cam seems fine. I really don't notice a difference in power. Having said that, I think it is more of an issue where the original cam was down on power, leading up to the failure.

Haven't run enough fuel to check MPG, yet.

If you want the power back, Frank says to work with Malone tuning (was Alligator tuning) and that'll give you the power back (and maybe a little more). Once the wife is back to work, I'll probably get a tune.

Tony