Another BRM Cam victim

[TonyJetta]

Well, the tell tale noise reared it's ugly head today. After talking with Frank, and inspecting the cam, I can fell a pronounced burr on the lobes, particularly on the exhaust.

I'll be ordering a BEW kit from Frank, tomorrow morning.

I tell you, this could not come at a worse time. Just moved; Wife is out of work, looking for a job; unemployment wants 4 weeks to get that going for her; trying to sell the old house....

Oh, well, rolling with the punch!

Tony

 

[hid3]

Mileage? Complete Oil usage history with intervals? Otherwise this thread is useless...

 

[Mach1]

Sorry to hear Tony...

 

[TonyJetta]

101k miles

5W40 until VW/Castrol changed to 5W30. I'll have to look at my spreadsheet to give you an idea of when in time/miles I changed to 5W30.

Tony

 

[Ol'Rattler]

Got pictures?

Just looked at my 06 with 70K miles and noticed a faint copper colored ring on the face of one of the lifters. As near as I can tell the cam lobes are O.K.

 

[hid3]

I'll have to look at my spreadsheet to give you an idea of when in time/miles I changed to 5W30.

Would be useful to know that info...

 

[eddif]

Got pictures?

Just looked at my 06 with 70K miles and noticed a faint copper colored ring on the face of one of the lifters. As near as I can tell the cam lobes are O.K.

If you yell at a person about to fall over a cliff, you might startle them and cause the fall.

I want to carefully walk up to you and suggest something. Please replace the cam bearings in your car. The copper is coming from the cam bearings IMHO, and experience. You only have about 100 miles to get this done. Soon that copper ring / or possibly rings turn into raw wear. I watched it happen on mine.

You have described what happened to me at 105,000 miles US. I replaced the cam bearings and lightly polished the copper off (it just wipes off with abrasive machinists cloth). The cam has no sign of the copper now 30,000 miles later (except the rollers kept a copper color on them).

If I have you standing away from the cliff edge; could I help talk you through getting new cam bearings in. In 100 more miles the tiny copper streaks were turning into raw wear marks. I parked my car till I could get the bearings in.

eddif

 

[TonyJetta]

Got pictures?

Nope...cam still in the engine. I don't plan to take it apart, until I can get parts late this week. Once I have it apart, I will take pictures.

On mine...the wear shows up as a burr on the edge of the came lobe. Frank confirmed this is evidence of the failure.

I ordered a BEW cam and associated parts. From conversation with Frank, it appears the BEW profile wears better than the BRM, but produces ~10hp less. I'll also be talking to alligator to bump up the power a little. I don't want too much: This is the wife's daily driver and has a DSG. If it had a 5sp, I would have gone with a Colt cam.

Tony

 

[Ol'Rattler]

If you yell at a person about to fall over a cliff, you might startle them and cause the fall.

I want to carefully walk up to you and suggest something. Please replace the cam bearings in your car. The copper is coming from the cam bearings IMHO, and experience. You only have about 100 miles to get this done. Soon that copper ring / or possibly rings turn into raw wear. I watched it happen on mine.

You have described what happened to me at 105,000 miles US. I replaced the cam bearings and lightly polished the copper off (it just wipes off with abrasive machinists cloth). The cam has no sign of the copper now 30,000 miles later (except the rollers kept a copper color on them).

If I have you standing away from the cliff edge; could I help talk you through getting new cam bearings in. In 100 more miles the tiny copper streaks were turning into raw wear marks. I parked my car till I could get the bearings in.

eddif

Thanks for the heads up. And I agree. most people will drive a car till it's completely fubared. Would be great to save the cam and lifters.

So if I've got this correct, the cam has worn through the bearing material at the cam bearing near that lifter and the copper is the bearings backing material flaking off that cam bearing and being deposited on that lifter by that lifter's cam lobe?

so I will need the timing belt tools, the bearings and miscellaneous gaskets, of course. What do you use to press in and out the bearings? Also, I had read something about revising the oiling to the cam bearings. what is the most recent wisdom on that?

Almost forgot, used 5W30 505.01 at the 50K mile and 60K mile oil changes.

All the other oil changes have been 5W40 505.01..............

 

[eddif]

Thanks for the heads up. And I agree. most people will drive a car till it's completely fubared. Would be great to save the cam and lifters.

So if I've got this correct, the cam has worn through the bearing material at the cam bearing near that lifter and the copper is the bearings backing material flaking off that cam bearing and being deposited on that lifter by that lifter's cam lobe?

so I will need the timing belt tools, the bearings and miscellaneous gaskets, of course. What do you use to press in and out the bearings? Also, I had read something about revising the oiling to the cam bearings. what is the most recent wisdom on that?

Almost forgot, used 5W30 505.01 at the 50K mile and 60K mile oil changes.

All the other oil changes have been 5W40 505.01..............

Gracious me. You did your home work pretty well. The only little difference, that can be true, is: the copper flakes being released can bounce around a lot under the valve cover, and can come from another failing bearing. It is probable that it is the lifter next to the failing bearing, but it does not have to be.

I have put in about 39 cam bearings in our car for testing and have never: loosened the tension on the timing belt, replaced the valve cover gasket, used any silicon sealer, replaced the wonderful TTY bolts (I bought some once), replaced the cam seal. I have been under the VC about 14 times now.

Are you going to do the work yourself? Have you ever rolled bearings in before? Do you have a beam, inch pound, pointer style, torque wrench (not ft lb but inch pound) (not click torque wrench but old pointer style)?
Could you listen to a jerk from Mississippi without freaking?

If you remove the cam bearings and a lot of copper release is going on, you have to pull the cam to polish the cam bearing journals.

Parking the cam with the number one, belt end cylinder, exhaust valve down right over the follower helps. You can not take all the caps off at once ETC. I used a piece of copper roof flashing material cut the width of the bearing and de burred. It is too thin but with the help of a screwdriver it can be done.

My process is not for the faint of heart. You can ruin the whole cam if you scratch the wrong thing. It takes Grace to get through it the way I approach it. If you wish to hire someone and give them $400 USD that is your choice. A fellow in Oregon said that if I could do what I was doing, I could do a lot to the PD.

The cheap way covered. The best way is to get all the tools, remove the cam from the car, polish the cam bearing journals, get the copper lightly off the cam lobe (lightly). Replace bolts, seal, bearings.

If you will send 12 bearings to me (I will probably ruin two) I will cut a set for free. Or I will even consider letting you send 6 VW bearings (only VW bearings) and you can test the new 5 ea lower (unreleased / un-posted) bearing set.

You do need to do it now. In 100 miles my cam lobes were changing. Just by Grace I got mine early enough. Your wear can only be the one copper streak or so. If you have sharp edges on the cam lobe I am afraid it is too late. You have to tell the absolute truth. If wear is there just suck it up and say so. It will fail with even a small amount of lobe wear.

I am on the 5W-40 TDT oil wagon I suppose. With wear I am on the Mobil 1 15W-50 --- TDT 5W-40 mix. Location defines mix. You are fooling with a fellow that gets some pretty healthy criticism. If I can help let me know.

PM me.

eddif

 

[Ol'Rattler]

Really interested in your process. Would be great to remove the cam without loosing the T/B tension.

Bad news is I cannot stop driving the car immediately, perhaps within 500 miles,with the schedule I keep.

Can you elaborate on the mods required to the cam bearings to improve oiling?

Oh ya, something I learned from my time south of the Mason Dixon line is that folks from the south are anything but slow. Making that assumption is a very serious mistake..............................

 

[hid3]

Really interested in your process. Would be great to remove the cam without loosing the T/B tension.

Bad news is I cannot stop driving the car immediately, perhaps within 500 miles,with the schedule I keep.

Can you elaborate on the mods required to the cam bearings to improve oiling?

Oh ya, something I learned from my time south of the Mason Dixon line is that folks from the south are anything but slow. Making that assumption is a very serious mistake..............................

You won't be able to remove cam without loosing the TB tension. Eddif wanted to say that you can remove CAM BEARINGS without loosing the TB tension.

Also, I think it's worth to say that it's better to replace the cam bearings with new ones (even with stock, not modified) than leaving those failing ones inside for longer.

 

[eddif]

Really interested in your process. Would be great to remove the cam without loosing the T/B tension.

Bad news is I cannot stop driving the car immediately, perhaps within 500 miles,with the schedule I keep.

Can you elaborate on the mods required to the cam bearings to improve oiling?

Oh ya, something I learned from my time south of the Mason Dixon line is that folks from the south are anything but slow. Making that assumption is a very serious mistake..............................

Step away from the cliff edge once more.
Calmly drive slowly to the nearest store that sells Mobil 1 tdt 5W-40 buy a gallon.
Calmly drive slowly to the nearest store that sells Mobil 1 15W-50 and buy a 5 quart jug.
Change the oil now. I suggest 2.5 quarts of 5W-40 and two Quarts of 15W-50 mixed together. I feel that you need to do this like two ole southern boys on a coon hunt. Wide open an wild. You ain't doin nothin but slepin from 3:00 AM till 5:00 AM anyway.. Get the oil changed now.

I was serious about the need to stop driving the car. In 100 miles I observed about two little raw wear streaks begin to form. Now you may drive 5,000 or 20,000 more miles before the cam fails, but you only have miles before you are beyond the ability to save the cam. Ihis is based on my experience.

Look at this cam lobe (not mine).


The faint copper streak is all you should allow. The raw wear streaks should not to be allowed to form. 5W-30 oil is too thin to form a hydrodynamic film thick enough to protect your cam lobes. IMHO. 5W-40 tdt oil will still allow contact marks on cam bearings (from experience).

These are the current mods needed. You can do these cuts at home.


And you can see the backside cuts here.


The backside cuts are done on the lower and upper shells; to make the top unused oil slots active.

eddif

 

[Ol'Rattler]

Thanks for the info. So the problem is that there is no oiling to the top halves of the bearings?

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact I will be replacing the cam and lifters with the T/B but will probably try the 15w50/5W40 oil and monitor for wear every week or so. From what I've heard, is that the new cam and lifters will not be failure prone.

 

[dieseldorf]

Do we know for a fact that the replacement parts are a new/improved design?

T, good luck with the repairs!

 

[hid3]

Thanks for the info. So the problem is that there is no oiling to the top halves of the bearings?

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact I will be replacing the cam and lifters with the T/B but will probably try the 15w50/5W40 oil and monitor for wear every week or so. From what I've heard, is that the new cam and lifters will not be failure prone.

I would also change the bottom bearings if I were you. The bottom bearings are those which wear out, not the top ones.

 

[mattds]

is there an aftermarket/performance Cam available?

 

[AD5GB]

is there an aftermarket/performance Cam available?

Colt cams is the only one I'm aware of. I spoke with Geoff from the company a couple months ago. Not only is he offering a stock replacement but also a "stage II" performance grind good for about 15 extra HP and 30 LB/FT of torque. Further, he believes he's found a problem (thus a solution) to the lobe eating problem in that the ramp profile of the lobe itself isn't suited for a hydraulic type of follower. He's addressed this in both the cams and time will tell I guess, but I believe he's on to something as do many others.

 

[hid3]

Really? What's wrong with the cam? And what's the fix for it?

 

[Bob S.]

Tony; Sorry to read that you joined the ranks. I am right behind you.

 

[TonyJetta]

Bob / dieseldorf, thanks for the support. It is appreciated!

Tony

 

[AD5GB]

Really? What's wrong with the cam? And what's the fix for it?

As I said he feels the lobe ramp profile is unsuitable for hydraulic followers. The fix is grinding a more suitable ramp. http://www.coltcams.com He doesn't have TDi cam stuff on the website yet, but send him an email if you wish. He can answer any questions you have and is a heck of a decent guy to talk to.

 

[eddif]

You won't be able to remove cam without loosing the TB tension. Eddif wanted to say that you can remove CAM BEARINGS without loosing the TB tension.

Also, I think it's worth to say that it's better to replace the cam bearings with new ones (even with stock, not modified) than leaving those failing ones inside for longer.

I gave two ways to approach the problem Rattler has.
1..Just replace the lower bearings with the cam in place and the tension still on the belt (if the copper realease is minor)
2..Remove the cam if the copper release is severe. The cam removal requires all tools etc.

Thanks for the info. So the problem is that there is no oiling to the top halves of the bearings?

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact I will be replacing the cam and lifters with the T/B but will probably try the 15w50/5W40 oil and monitor for wear every week or so. From what I've heard, is that the new cam and lifters will not be failure prone.

The problem is not that the top bearings have no oil. The problem is that the lower bearings oil supply is cut off as mileage goes up, and that causes the lower bearings and the followers to starve for oil. The supply of oil to the top bearings helps the followers oil better and slightly helps the lower bearings.

Do we know for a fact that the replacement parts are a new/improved design?

T, good luck with the repairs!

No we are just told the design is better . It will be five years of testing before we know the design is better. High mileage commute drivers can get mileage on in a hurry, but that will not tell how long a cam will last for the average 20,000 mile a year shorter trip car. The short trip car needs years to test. Most of the people with 280,000 miles on the cars drive 200 miles plus a day. Highway miles historically get good parts wear, and results do not relate to some drivers.

Colt cams is the only one I'm aware of. I spoke with Geoff from the company a couple months ago. Not only is he offering a stock replacement but also a "stage II" performance grind good for about 15 extra HP and 30 LB/FT of torque. Further, he believes he's found a problem (thus a solution) to the lobe eating problem in that the ramp profile of the lobe itself isn't suited for a hydraulic type of follower. He's addressed this in both the cams and time will tell I guess, but I believe he's on to something as do many others.

Again it will take five years to really know if they are better. IMHO

As I said he feels the lobe ramp profile is unsuitable for hydraulic followers. The fix is grinding a more suitable ramp. http://www.coltcams.com He doesn't have TDi cam stuff on the website yet, but send him an email if you wish. He can answer any questions you have and is a heck of a decent guy to talk to.

I have seen no pictures of cams at 50,000 miles .... 300,000 miles yet. Again high daily commute miles do not always reflect the general wear experience.

eddif

 

[aja8888]

Tony, sorry to hear about the economic dilemma. Hopefully, things will get better for you and your wife in short order. I have a daughter going through the same deal and with a college degree.

We are starting to feel the loss of jobs in Houston and the south with the BP/gov intervention mess.

Tony

 

[Ol'Rattler]

I think all we really know about this is that because of the narrow cam lobes, the contact area load between the lobes and the lifters is much higher than on a conventional engine. I don't really see a correlation between can bearing wear and lobe to lifter wear, unless it is because of the copper contamination.

One nugget I have found is that the BEW engines don't seem to suffer from this problem. Maybe the cam profile on the BEW engines is different, leading to less maximum loads between the cam and lifters. Perhaps, Colt Cams is on to something.

My intent is to remove the cam as soon as possible and get the micrometer out and try to figure out what is really going on. It would be great if I could revise how the bearings oil and slow the wear down to an acceptable rate.

 

[eddif]

I think all we really know about this is that because of the narrow cam lobes, the contact area load between the lobes and the lifters is much higher than on a conventional engine. I don't really see a correlation between can bearing wear and lobe to lifter wear, unless it is because of the copper contamination.

One nugget I have found is that the BEW engines don't seem to suffer from this problem. Maybe the cam profile on the BEW engines is different, leading to less maximum loads between the cam and lifters. Perhaps, Colt Cams is on to something.

My intent is to remove the cam as soon as possible and get the micrometer out and try to figure out what is really going on. It would be great if I could revise how the bearings oil and slow the wear down to an acceptable rate.

This all is complex:

There are 5 oil use scenarios (which oil group to use and OCIs for that group)

The cam bearings: how they effect oiling, when they effect oiling, the delay in effecting oiling, the oiling reduction and how it effects particular engines (follower types), the cantilever effects on the bearings (middle and end)and general cam oiling

Copper release and how it effects different followers

The follower type (silver top and black coated follower and how they individually fail)

The follower mix or the removal of the mix and use of all black followers

The oil pump drive ratio and how oil volume effects the cam position.

The realization that high commute miles generally means high miles before failure

The fact that area and temperature influence failure.

Etc,

This all is not just one thing. It is all the engineering problems, intertwined with a whole list of oil specifications, wear rates and interactions. There is not one simple pill to fix the problems. I can appreciate the desire of people to support their individual pet thoughts:
oil type group
oil viscosity group
bearing group
cam design group
UOA group
No problem group
etc.


Everyone needs to expand their mind a little to encompass the whole picture. This engine is great in many ways. I need to know that as a teenager I thought I knew it all but as I grow older I find that a few more people know things too.

I am not against individuals having an idea different from mine. We all need to know how our ideas mesh with the ideas of others. I need an oil that seems not to be available (just one instance).

Hang in there Rattler and everyone.

eddif

 

[eddif]

I think all we really know about this is that because of the narrow cam lobes, the contact area load between the lobes and the lifters is much higher than on a conventional engine. I don't really see a correlation between can bearing wear and lobe to lifter wear, unless it is because of the copper contamination.

One nugget I have found is that the BEW engines don't seem to suffer from this problem. Maybe the cam profile on the BEW engines is different, leading to less maximum loads between the cam and lifters. Perhaps, Colt Cams is on to something.

My intent is to remove the cam as soon as possible and get the micrometer out and try to figure out what is really going on. It would be great if I could revise how the bearings oil and slow the wear down to an acceptable rate.

The previous post really was so general as not to really address the post in particular.

What we can know about the PD:
1... The cam lobes are narrow, but the base circle diameter is greater helping the contact ares.

2...The cam bearings do not have enough support under them and experience cocking from cantilever forces (both balanced and un-balanced)

3... All the different followers and follower mixes each give different types of failures

4...Oils and their use is complex

5... Reduced bearing support area requires higher viscosity oil

6... Cam bearing oil slot coverage (and thus follower oiling) takes place at different mileages for different people.


Try to learn all the different areas. Then you can fit solutions together that help you and your car.

By the way, my BEW basically failed at 105,000 miles US. There are a lot of BEW failures too.

eddif

 

[eddif]

The BEW:
Cam position is fairly even from end to end of head. Belt end climbs slightly due to friction and cantilever forces.

Followers are silver topped and if oiling is good: are resistant to carbon strikes and if no copper flakes get on the cam / follewer interface, it wears a long time.

Cam bearing condition and oiling is very critical to the BEW. The cam bearing modifications mean everything to the BEW

The BRM:

Cam position is worse. The belt end climbs a lot and very early copper release can happen. Cam position can possibly contribute to failures.

Follower mix of silver top and black followers.
Exhaust followers wear well, but sometimes seem to fracture due to carbon strikes and are more fragile at high RPMs
Intake followers are still effected by copper flake release and this gives you an idea why intakes sometimes fail early on the BRM.

Cam bearing condition effect on oiling is different, in a BRM.

I wish the effect of eddif modified cam bearings was tested on a BRM. If the test shows what I expect, we could see the BRM get better in short order. We need a volunteer.

This is just where I am in seeing the differences. I could discuss other things but this is a work in progress.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Cam design and failure

I understand a little about opening and closing ramps, follower velocity and their effect on cam life. I can not get into the formulas and just go on and on.

It is interesting, and a major point, that over and over you hear something about like this. At 100,000 miles a cam inspection showed no wear at all, but at 120,000 miles I have a bad follower and two other failing lobes.
You never ran low on oil
The oil was a good brand and changed at a good interval
The engine did not run hot
Nothing changed in the use of my car

Talks about cam design, materials, oils make little difference at this failure point. What happened was equal to running out of oil. The cam position fimally got close enough to the cam bearing oil slots to cut off oil to the cam bearings and follower tops. It is really the same thing as running out of oil.

We sometime talk about failed cams: as the cams fault, as the oils fault. In many cases it is the oiling has basically suddenly slowed to a trickle, and copper deposition low oiling has caused failure. IMHO

eddif

 

[Ol'Rattler]

So a different opening and closing ramp such as with a BEW cam doesn't really address the root problem, it might just buy you a little more time because the ramp up/down loads are perhaps gentler causing less cam to lobe wear but not less bearing wear.

Your implication seems to be that lobe/follower wear is a result of reduced oiling caused by bearing wear.

Could you expand on:

• Cam bearing oil slot coverage (and thus follower oiling) takes place at different mileages for different people.
• The cam bearings do not have enough support under them and experience cocking from cantilever forces (both balanced and un-balanced)
• (BRM)Cam position is worse. The belt end climbs a lot and very early copper release can happen. Cam position can possibly contribute to failures.

Lack of oiling to the lobes/lifters could be supplemented easily enough, but I don't quite understand the dynamics of the bearing oiling.......................