Another 5 spd, BS deleted vibrating b5.5

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
One time long ago i built a 428 Cobra Jet engine. I went to Ford and asked them for a 428 CJ Flywheel. The parts guy gave me a 429 flywheel by mistake. I went back to the shop and installed it. Bolted up just fine. Got the whole project done and started it up. Vibrated pretty bad. I thought it was the flywheel. I asked the parts guy to ck the number. He apologized and said he gave me a 429 flywheel. Long story short, i put the correct 428 flywheel in....smooth as butter. Point is, i know what a flywheel vibration feels like.
Here are my questions:
[Conditions:
Im using the Whitbread 30 lb. Flywheel with the Clutchmasters FX-250. And the BS is deleted. To the Alh pump, Brm pulley version. Not the geared delete. I just completely rebuilt the motor from the crank up. New rings, bearings, light diamond hone, rebuilt head, only 200 miles on the rebuild at this time.
I have a vibration. Its not terrible, but its there. All the way through the rpm range]
Is the vibration from the BS delete?
I checked the rods. None are bent. Injector balance is 25% or less of the allowable deviation from 0.
Or is the 30 pound flywheel/clutch assembly out of balance?
Crank pulley bad?
Engine not broken in yet?
Anyone with the BS delete (non geared) without the 5sp?
What do you guys think?
 
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mozark

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Location
Mon Nat'l Forest, West Virginia
TDI
'05 Passat Wagon, Silver, 5sp '05 Passat Wagon, Indigo, auto
I have two 2005 Wagons. First I've owned since new, deleted the BS about 5 years ago. Converted to 5 sp 2 or three years ago. Clutch is the standard euro dual mass set-up. Maybe some additional engine vibration at idle, smooth and powerful at speed. There's a minor bit of harmonic vibration at 2200 or so. I don't really take it over 3600 or so, but it feels great through all ranges. The second I just finished. Nice wagon with a failed geared BS. I had a parts car with a good engine. 190K. Original cam and chained BS. All functional. Deleted the BS, but kept the cam as it looks pristine. Paired that engine with the DSG from the wagon and finished up a couple of weeks ago. Car runs well. Smooth at all speeds. Slightly less vibration at idle. Smooth throughout the gear/rpm ranges. Engine sound is similar. Powerful but obviously not as responsive as the manual 5 speed. Both engines have ALH pumps with the BRM cog/chain.

Which engine mounts?
Belts and pulleys run true?
Alternator, AC compressor and tensioners/idlers have no bearing noise?

I guess I'd rule out all the accessories first, then move on to the clutch/flywheel.
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
I used Febi engine and Corteco Trans mounts.
Belts, pulleys, accessories are all good.
Im thinking BSM delete is the cause.
Thats my instinct.
Could also be the Flywheel clutch assembly.
Its far less noticeable off idle....but its still there....
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Have you owned many diesels outside of VW? Diesels vibrate.


Your vibration is normal, maybe not euro entry level luxury car normal but normal for an oil burner


Stick to OEM engine mounts and especially foam type oem diesel front mount. I'm not sure the trans mounts had a different part number from the diesels, they looked the same to me side by side.
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
Thank you guys. Ill swap the mounts to genuine. Thank you for the part numbers Mozark.
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
PickleRick....
Yeah Ive had 7 one ton Fords, Dodges. And yeah the vibrate but they are 3x the size of the little 2.0 bhw.....
But inside the VW realm ive had dozens....i have 2 06 brm jetta stick cars that barely vibrate. Compared to those cars the b5.5 is vibrating much more. I was the head tech for Wild Rose Motors...Leonard Harview for 10 yrs. I deleted dozens of BSMs. I worked on hundreds of these cars. And so, as is normal for we humans, i am comparing the b5.5 vibration with all of those cars and its in the top 5% of vibrators. Ive seen worse. But not many. I really like to dial things in on these cars...so i asked you guys what you thought and so far it working out....got some great info.
I was thinking i could do something to greatly reduce the vibes.
Thank you
Also. I found this article. I found it interesting and informative:
 
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dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
From the post:
The way the balance shafts work is by canceling out the first-order vibrations from the asymmetrical I4 engine’s cylinder firing order which do not inherently cancel themselves out like, for example, V engines. Some people think that the decrease in vibrations allowed for by the balance shafts is because they are balanced with the rotating assembly at time of engine manufacture and counterbalance the crankshafts weight… that is not true, technically speaking, which consequently means the engine does NOT need to be re-balanced after they are deleted. So it doesn't have anything to do with weight. Rather, the reason the balance shafts cancel first-order vibrations is because they actually create their own second-order vibrations in the opposite direction. One balance shaft spins opposite the direction of the crankshaft to physically cancel out the directional vibrations from the engine and then the other balance shaft spins opposite that first balance shaft to cancel that shaft out. The net result is not complete vibration reduction since there are not additional shafts to keep cancelling each previous shaft and sequentially reduce vibration down to effectively nothing... but the result is still substantially reduced vibration overall.


Naturally, then, the end result of “deleting” them is huuugely increased engine vibration and a much angrier sounding engine. At certain RPM it sounds somewhat close to the Audi 5-cylinders. That might sound cool but that’s not the point; the point is it sounds like an “angrier” engine because IT IS an angrier engine. It’s angry because it’s producing a ****load of vibration and under more strain. Reducing vibrations is important for long term engine health and increasing them has the opposite effect. Trust me, when these balance shafts are deleted engine vibrations increase dramatically and not only will this make driving less comfortable it will also have a long-term impact on reliability of certain parts. Do NOT underestimate the impact of significant vibrations. They can do everything from loosen bolts over time, cause weaker materials like plastic more risk of cracking, cause seals/gaskets to fail earlier than normal, wear out harmonic balancers faster, prematurely destroy sensitive electronics, and increase strain on engine internals. Vibrations are the #2 killer for track/race cars (behind the #1 which is heat). Every Spring I thoroughly inspect everything on my car and torque check every critical bolt on my car, special attention to those that bolt in anything connected to or near the engine, precisely because I have such ridiculously stiff mounts and no balance shafts. God forbid my engine or trans mount bolts work themselves loose and I go out to the track that way…
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
Yeah. Agree. Ive always wondered why the bhw seems to vibrate more than the brm, alh, bew engines. I ordered the vwag new improved foam engine mounts. I'll report back on that.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I've also heard reports that the dual mass flywheel is smoother than the Whitbread single mass.
 

mozark

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Location
Mon Nat'l Forest, West Virginia
TDI
'05 Passat Wagon, Silver, 5sp '05 Passat Wagon, Indigo, auto
I've also heard reports that the dual mass flywheel is smoother than the Whitbread single mass.
I've not encountered the Whitbread, but the DM flywheel is unnoticeable in my 5 speed.

Ive always wondered why the bhw seems to vibrate more than the brm, alh, bew engines.
I have a Power Wagon that I swapped a 4BTA into a while back. Probably warped my perception, but I don't notice the vibration in the Passats. Maybe a little at idle in the 5speed. The one with the auto-trans just feels like a sedan.
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
My two mk5 jettas, tuned...are smooth as silk.Really no vibration at all in the drivers seat. They are fast too! Im ruined!
 
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dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
Maybe the vwag foam super-duper new improved mounts will make it better! They are on the way
 

mozark

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Location
Mon Nat'l Forest, West Virginia
TDI
'05 Passat Wagon, Silver, 5sp '05 Passat Wagon, Indigo, auto
Maybe the vwag foam super-duper new improved mounts will make it better! They are on the way
They are different, left and right. The engine is canted, obviously, and the weight distribution is weird, then add in torque. I think the VAG engineers deserve some credit. The OEM mounts do have merit. I hope they make a difference in your
car.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
My DD is a deleted B5.5 with 530,000km, 280,000 of those since the 6spd conversion and delete. I also went with the ALH pump and BRM sprocket. My clutch of choice is a 240mm stock DMF with an SRE clutch from darkside performance in the UK.

Up here in the Great white north, my car is more vibratey when the engine and mounts are cold. Fine in the spring summer and fall. Really only a little annoying when first started cold and temps are decently below freezing.

I've also owned ALH jettas and an 06 BRM jetta (along with a MK3 golf and a B4 passat). The VW pendulum mount system in the JEttas is vastly better at quelling vibrations. The Tripod mount system in the MK3 and the B4 allowed more vibration into the cabin, particularly at idle. I replaced all my mounts (engine and trans) with new OEM when I did the convert / delete. I would also echo getting a set of the OE mounts before anything else.

In my experience, with my car, the lack of BSM contributes to a mild (in my case) resonance around 2000 rpm. from the much reading I've done, the BSM is there mot to quell vibrations through the chassis at idle but higher in the rev range.

Your situation is not unique - there are a few threads here on the subject, and a few who have experienced multiple deleted cars have chimed in that some deleted cars just vibrate more inherently than others.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
My daily driver for a good 4 years was a 67 fj40 on 4 inch leaf spring lift and 33x12.5 mud terrains. No AC and heat worked ok for a soft topper in the southeastern winters. The engine was a 3.9 liter isuzu 4bd2t which is very similar to the 4bt. I used solid rubber hockey puck style engine and trans mounts.

My bsm delete bhw with factory mounts and 1.8t single mass 20 lbs valeo clutch/flywheel kit rides/drives like a Cadillac comparatively.

I've found compared to the 4btswaps, landcruiser and powerstroke forums I regularly visit the VAG crowd is much more sensitive to vibration.

After the conversion the little lady commented the car was louder(egr delete) but has never complained of the vibration.
 

QuickTD

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2002
Location
SW Ontario
TDI
2003 Audi A4Q 5spd 2.0 TDI 2056VK R783, 2006 Audi A4Q 6spd 2.0 TDI, 2007 A4Q 6spd 2.0 TDI
From the post:
The way the balance shafts work is by canceling out the first-order vibrations from the asymmetrical I4 engine’s cylinder firing order which do not inherently cancel themselves out like, for example, V engines. Some people think that the decrease in vibrations allowed for by the balance shafts is because they are balanced with the rotating assembly at time of engine manufacture and counterbalance the crankshafts weight… that is not true, technically speaking, which consequently means the engine does NOT need to be re-balanced after they are deleted. So it doesn't have anything to do with weight. Rather, the reason the balance shafts cancel first-order vibrations is because they actually create their own second-order vibrations in the opposite direction. One balance shaft spins opposite the direction of the crankshaft to physically cancel out the directional vibrations from the engine and then the other balance shaft spins opposite that first balance shaft to cancel that shaft out. The net result is not complete vibration reduction since there are not additional shafts to keep cancelling each previous shaft and sequentially reduce vibration down to effectively nothing... but the result is still substantially reduced vibration overall.


Naturally, then, the end result of “deleting” them is huuugely increased engine vibration and a much angrier sounding engine. At certain RPM it sounds somewhat close to the Audi 5-cylinders. That might sound cool but that’s not the point; the point is it sounds like an “angrier” engine because IT IS an angrier engine. It’s angry because it’s producing a ****load of vibration and under more strain. Reducing vibrations is important for long term engine health and increasing them has the opposite effect. Trust me, when these balance shafts are deleted engine vibrations increase dramatically and not only will this make driving less comfortable it will also have a long-term impact on reliability of certain parts. Do NOT underestimate the impact of significant vibrations. They can do everything from loosen bolts over time, cause weaker materials like plastic more risk of cracking, cause seals/gaskets to fail earlier than normal, wear out harmonic balancers faster, prematurely destroy sensitive electronics, and increase strain on engine internals. Vibrations are the #2 killer for track/race cars (behind the #1 which is heat). Every Spring I thoroughly inspect everything on my car and torque check every critical bolt on my car, special attention to those that bolt in anything connected to or near the engine, precisely because I have such ridiculously stiff mounts and no balance shafts. God forbid my engine or trans mount bolts work themselves loose and I go out to the track that way…
Most of this is untrue. The BSM in a BHW is used to counter the second order (twice crank speed) inertial imbalance that results from differing acceleration of the pistons due to connecting rod angle. This imbalance is inherent to every inline 4cyl flat plane crank engine. In automotive use, most 4cyl engines above ~2l displacement use balance shafts for this reason. The inertial imbalance does not "make the engine angry" or reduce the reliability, it just shakes a bit more in the vertical plane. It is possible that some accessories could be subjected to more vibration, but it does not harm the engine itself in any way. In fact, stresses within the engine are reduced by not using a BSM. A non balanced engine hops up and down in the mounts rather than stressing the BSM and crank bearings trying to constrain the forces within the engine block.

The longitudinal 2l TDI presents some challenges not seen in the transverse engines. The engine mounts are stressed in different directions at the same time due to drive torque being at right angles to engine vibration. Coupled to an automatic, the problem gets worse. The engine is now torquing against the mounts while stopped and in drive. Vibration control is difficult in this case. The engineers obviously decided that a balance shaft was necessary to make vibration levels acceptable. There are lots of 1.9 and 2l transverse engines that get by without balance shafts. Most of VW and audi's own 2l engines with a manual trans did not use balance shafts.

I have owned and driven many thousands of miles in BHW powered cars with BSM deletes. In my experience, the largest influence on vibration seems to be the snub mount adjustment at the rad cradle. I loosen the bolts on the oil pan/snub mount cup and let the mount settle on its own as the engine idles. Then tighten them up. Another source of vibration is non-oe engine and transmission mounts. I have tried several aftermarket mounts. None are as good as the dealer supplied items. The dealer mounts are expensive, but work the best.
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
Great info! Thank you! Genuine mounts are here....ill do the snub nose adjustment also. Thanks again
 
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dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
So the mounts i got from VW were oldish stock. 2013, and 2018. Do you guys think that will be a problem? Are mounts that old even the updated foam mounts?
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
Check, and check. They are the AR suffixes. And Genuine VWAG. I will use them. Thank you
 

Mozambiquer

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Location
Versailles Missouri
TDI
1998 VW Jetta TDI. 1982 VW Rabbit pickup, 2001 VW Jetta TDI
My first b5.5 had a bsm delete, and I just bought two more b5.5 wagons (got three of them now) all automatics still, but the new ones have the geared bsm conversion done by oilhammer, and they do have noticably less vibrations than the deleted one, but it's still a lot less than my old idi diesels.
The biggest advantages, in my opinion, of going with the delete instead of geared (besides the cost) would be the deleted one has more zip due to less rotational mass, and then the added oil capacity and less moving parts.
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
Ok. Heres the VWAG vs Febi Mount report:
NIGHT AND DAY!
VWAG mounts are great!
Febi mounts transmit too much vibration to the body. At Wild Rose we ALWAYS used VWAG mounts. Now i have direct first hand knowledge and experience as to why.
You guys are good.
Thank you!
 

Kravt

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Location
Lexington, Ky
TDI
2005 Passat
QuickTD, you bring up a great point about the adjustment of the snub mount contributing to more cabin vibration. I have found this to be true as well. It is apparent that VW spent considerable effort improving the main engine mounts to help dampen the vibration of these diesels. When the snub mount is adjusted even just slightly off, more of the engine load and vibration is transmitted to the frame via a tiny little foam donut - which to me doesn't seem capable of much damping.
 

dtrvler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5 spd
The new snub mount (Genuine) isnt here yet. I will install and adjust as described above. This morning I wired eveything to restore cruise control except for the clutch cancel switch which was not present on the car and is on its way to me. I'll have to use a different 2 wire male and female connector since the pigtail nor the clutch cancel switch were taken from the donor car.
I also want to update this thread which i started by talking about flywheel vibrations. There is no unusual vibration now so I cant intellectually honestly blame the W.B. 30 lb. Flywheel and the FX-250 for much if anything. Next clutch, i can try the 1.8 T Dual Mass with the Stg 3 SB clutch and see if it gets even quieter....
Valve cover feels similar to one of my smooth Mk5s now though....
 

J.P.

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Location
Northern MI
TDI
Black 05 b5.5V/6spd w/250k miles (daily). Silver 02 Golf/5spd w/240k miles (fun 1). Mint Tornado Red 01 Golf/5spd w/420k (ALH still perfect!!!).
For what it is worth, I have a BSM deleted b5.5 with a 6spd conversion. I bought it converted and it came with a single mass flywheel in it. Coming from an A4 ALH I considered the car very raspy especially from 1400-2100 rpm. Bad enough that I was picking shift points to keep the engine rpms above 2k so I didn't have to deal with the raspy vibration. Changing to OEM engine and trans mounts all around didn't alleviate it. I switched to the stock euro DMF, and it got much much better - no more nasty rasp. Still a little more vibration than the A4 ALH - enough that my wife doesn't like the b5.5 in the city because it aggravates an old jaw injury for her. Because I bought the car with the balance shaft deleted, I don't know if the vibration is due to the bsm delete, or the longitudinal BHW of the b5.5 compared to the transverse ALH of the A4. Note that there are other posts on tdiclub discussing the known issue of vibration with 6spds and single mass flywheels (long input shaft on the 6 spds).
 
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