You're right. The only valid comparison between products is with standardized testing - normally with ASTM and/or ISO procedures - with un-used oil. These are the bounds within which OEMs and/or governing bodies (API, ACEA, ILSAC) create specs and these are the tests and procedures used when oil and additive companies formulate products to meet the requirements.BKmetz said:Informercial style testimonials have no place in this thread, or any oil thread for that matter. Posts of this type only attract detractors that will post that they have used other brands of oil longer with better results. Nothing can be quantified so nothing is ever resolved.
You're right. We have a behavior problem, not an oil problem.AndyH said:Brian,
I don't think this is even all of the issue. Many of the threads that have deteriorated into the polar-opposite issue you've outlined didn't begin as attack threads, and most didn't begin as AMSOIL threads! They were hijacked and then took on a life of their own. I think that, if we're looking to identify which link of the chain broke, it's about hijack, not a specific oil company. So maybe the real quest should be adult-behavior rules?
Just one mindset of many that needs to change.One of the areas I've tried to work with here - from as completely a vendor-neutral position as possible - is warranty. The FUD minority shouted that if the oil used wasn't on the list, the warranty is automatically gone. This is one of the reasons for the recent looks at MagMoss and the aftermarket laws in the US - which offer significantly more options for the US consumer than our Euro bros/sisters have. Regardless of OEM requirements, oil companies are on the hook for their products and are the guys that write the check when the oil fails. So - from a strictly aftermarket view, the bottom line is still product performance - just as it is for pistons or camshafts. Contrary to the screams of the FUD minority - these discussions were warranty-centric, not oil-centric. Some of the happenings in these threads that lead me to believe that the membership still isn't clear on this - and is therefore are in a position to be controlled by a dealership and not in control of their consumer rights - are arguments like 'engine warranty will be void for the wrong oil the same way the warranty is void for biodiesel use' (one of these is covered by a VW position statement, the other is not).
I'm being tolerant during this transition period. I'm going to let everyone get their grievances aired in this thread. So let it all out, this is the thread to do it. And they better get it all out of their systems now, by catharsis, behavior modification, hypnotism, whatever it takes, because how we finally decide to conduct ourselves, I will make sure we will conform.Personal attacks are even happening in THIS thread! This is an area I'd like to see some 'teeth' in the moderation process.
I agree. Great information gets lost, especially when I have to send a thread to the black hole. This is about my biggest pet-peeve, having to watch great information ruined by the antics of a small minority who put their egos above the good of the club, and the babysitting I am forced to do to get people to behave.I learned a GREAT deal from the last few month's threads (as I did from the 'discussions' of the late '90s) - and we as a group learned some things about the 505.01 spec that we didn't realize earlier in the year - so there has been some value! I just wish there wasn't so much garbage to wade thru to get the good info.
It would be nice, that's a hard mindset to change.It would be far nicer if we could find a way to 'work together' in a Napoleon Hill 'mastermind' type of structure -- where two or more people come together in a spirit of harmony to achieve a common goal. People not in harmony need not apply.
We shouldn't have to use a keyword. The behavior for posting already exists in us as adults. Everyone already knows what the behavior expectations are, when one registers one agrees to a contract of conduct. I see it as changing the juvenile mindset that people bring with them.SO -- in the interest of continuing to advance the community's 'corporate knowledge', I'd like to propose the use of a key-word in thread titles. Threads having 'mastermind' in the title are for the express purpose of solving an issue. Any of the rules violations mentioned in the first post of this thread will (not can) result in deleting the post from the thread - two deletions max - the third 'strike' is a temporary ban from the forum. Thoughts? Andy
THe Motorcycle shifts smoother, and has less engine noise at higher rpm.Frank M said:What does the Suzuki run like when you use a different oil?
There really is no way to take your comments other than advertising. I was trying to illustrate that unsubstantiated claims invite abuse, which is what I'm trying to avoid. That's what this thread is about.BryanP said:I am sorry if you took my comments about Amsoil as a from as advertising. I only wanted to state that I was happy with Amsoil, and will continue to use it
Say it again, brother.I was trying to illustrate that unsubstantiated claims invite abuse, which is what I'm trying to avoid. That's what this thread is about.
exactly!LurkerMike said:Is empirical data meaningless?
. This was not done under careful laboratory conditions over several hundred experiments. It was a one time occurrence and nothing of value can be learned from it.
Thanks for the endorsement!Frank M said:exactly!
I get a kick out of " I use XXXXX oil and it works great"
Definition of "great":
- I filled it with the oil and the engine did start
- the engine did not immediately seize
- no thrown rods
- i went all the way to 10k mile oil change
- after 30,000 miles I submitted oil analysis and it is the same as any other oil
Ever heard the phrase 'lies, damn lies, and statistics'? (I may be able to use some of your Beagle Brand - is it wet clutch compatible?!)LurkerMike said:It is very funny how two people can agree on the "facts" but draw exactly opposite conclusions!
I have no problem with Amsoil in general, it does appear to blend reasonable oils. I don't even have a problem with it's multi level marketing - It is effective. And I don't have a problem with your being a salesman here, you certainly know your product and your market and are very good at your job, Zig Zigler would be proud.AndyH said:If your definition of 'pushing' is any activity in any forum by a registered vendor, than I respectfully disagree - with both you and jombl.
I have NEVER emailed you in my life. I have NEVER even responded to the multiple "Private Messages" that you have sent me. I have NEVER EVER written anything anywhere about your parents.AndyH said:But one has no reason to suggest that my parents were never married, or to e-mail me at home with more attacks.
Relax, jombl - and give the theatrics a break. I'm not asking you to take ownership of anything that doesn't belong to you. I'm simply reporting some of what's come my way in the past 5 months. Me thinks you doth protest too much.jombl said:To attempt to destroy someone over debate is unacceptable, I'm sorry but I will not take the bait. You should be ashamed of yourself.
EXACTLY!AndyH said:Brian said this is where he wants this to be hashed-out
FWIW When reading your post, I initially thought it was jombl that sent emails and made reference to your parents. Either that was an error in communication or it was deliberately written that way in an attempt to discredit someone..AndyH said:Relax, jombl - and give the theatrics a break. I'm not asking you to take ownership of anything that doesn't belong to you. I'm simply reporting some of what's come my way in the past 5 months. Me thinks you doth protest too much.
Andy was referencing what others have done in the past. Currently since the discussion is with jombl--- some has felt that that remark was implicitly towards himFrank M said:FWIW When reading your post, I initially thought it was jombl that sent emails and made reference to your parents. Either that was an error in communication or it was deliberately written that way in an attempt to discredit someone..
Lets hear your explanation because this is hitting below the belt if jombl is correct..
How about staying out of matters that don't concern you. I've been babysitting personal battles here for years, about the worst part of the job. I abhor needless escalation when bystanders feel the need to jump in, and I'm unsympathetic to their complaints when they get time-outs.Frank M said:FWIW When reading your post, I initially thought it was jombl that sent emails and made reference to your parents. Either that was an error in communication or it was deliberately written that way in an attempt to discredit someone..
Lets hear your explanation because this is hitting below the belt if jombl is correct..
Spleen venting?BKmetz said:EXACTLY!
This is the proper place for rants and spleen venting, so go for it and don't hold back. My expectations are that it would be ugly, as it should be. So far I have not been disappointed.