Alignment after Complete Suspension Refresh- Dealer or Firestone?

[325_Guy]

So I'm about to kick off a complete suspension refresh and I'm asking for advice on where to take for the alignment afterwards? Besides the shocks and struts, I'm replacing-
Front-
LCA bushings
Ball joints
Tie Rod inners and outers
Dropping subframe and installing a collar kit w/ new one time use bolts
Swaybar bushings

Rear-
Lower control arms
Swaybar bushings
All other bushings and rubber pieces

I'm also replacing all the one-time-use bolts and nuts. Reading the alignment instructions in the workshop manual, everything's to be tightened at ride height, which is fine, but then when things are to be loosened for alignment all the one-time-use nuts that get loosened for adjustment are to be replaced.

Is it end of the world if the one-time-use nuts are re-used (which I'm sure they will be) or should I take it to the dealer for the alignment and make sure those nuts are replaced?

Orr...am I being a nutcase? I do drive about 4k miles a month so I'm looking for a decent alignment that I won't be regretting.

 

[Rx7145]

I’m sure some will disagree but one time use nuts on suspension?! I can see it in the Head for the cam and main head bolts but suspension? Sorry I’d just run them down tight.

 

[oilhammer]

I hardly ever replace suspension fasteners, unless there is some cause for concern like excessive rust or a mangled thread or something. Just be cautious about how you tighten things down.

I'd also not install that subframe collar kit nonsense, unless your specific car is the only one that ever left the factory where the subframe and body landed absolutely perfect without having the provisions for a slight adjustment. Because as soon as it gets up on the alignment rack, and you find the camber/caster needs some minor tweak, that all comes back out and goes in the scrap bin and the regular bolts go right back in. (I personally get a kick out of doing this to all the sideways-hat wearing GTI goofus kids who just blew their allowance at ECS Tuning on that worthless crap, LOL).

 

[325_Guy]

Appreciate the input so far. This is my first suspension refresh and I’ve been piecing it together for months. Everything I read about the collar kits sounded good but oilhammer, you make a good point about losing the ability to make adjustments.

(for the record, I don’t wear my hat sideways )

 

[oilhammer]

I think the rigid subframe mounting is probably intended to be used in conjunction with some other form of added on adjustable parts, in particular upper strut mount plates. Because then, you could fine tune those adjustments (camber, caster) a different way, and no allowance for shifting the subframe would be necessary.

But the fact that VAG does allow the subframe be shifted, allows for better perfecting the alignment. Most other manufacturers do not allow for this, and the fit the subframe to pins welded to the unibody. Great if everything is perfect... not so great if the car has railed a big pothole and is no longer absolutely straight. Then, you're only remedy is to mount the sucker up on a frame rack and start the arduous and finicky procedure of pulling it back straight. Which is not only an art that takes a skilled set of hands and eyes, but takes the equipment to do so.

 

[Zak99b5]

You might want to tighten all the TTY bolts you’re replacing only to the initial torque value and skip the extra XX-degree turn. Bring immediately to a good alignment shop (not Firestone) and have them do the final torque after it’s aligned.

Firestone will not shift subframes to even out cross camber etc. If the manual says only toe is adjustable, then that is ALL they will do. I had to swap a rear beam on a B5 Passat then brought it in to Firestone. Told them the main reason I was there was for them to check and adjust it if needed. “We don’t do that.”

 

[Lug_Nut]

Don't pretend to expect that a dealer or a tire retailer will do any adjustments that aren't cam adjustable.
Sub-frame shift? Replace TTY bolts or nuts? Anything on the rear axle?
You pay for a 'four wheel alignment'. They park the car crookedly on the table, print out a sheet that shows all four wheels are out, then say the rear axle is non-adjustable, nor is the front caster or camber, but they did adjust the toe (to the crooked parking). You drive off poorer by $100 with a steering wheel canted to one side.
I use the local Firestone for the Saab, pay for a two wheel alignment just for the print-out, specifically for the caster. I DON'T get the alignment then, but drive home, use the factory look-up tables for shimming the upper arms to dial in caster and camber, then set the toe, and THEN drive back to get an 'after' printout.
Her Audi? The dealer said they couldn't dial in the rear camber after a rear half-shaft axle replacement.

 

[oilhammer]

The big alignment machine companies (Hunter, John Bean, Bend-Pak, Hofman, etc.) all have in their instructions the proper method to adjust, which on VAG products includes shifting subframes. If some shop doesn't do it, that's on them, and they are dumb. Because that is absolutely how the factory procedure says to do it.

 

[Zak99b5]

Hell, Firestone wouldn't even touch the ball joint-to-LCA nuts after I had replaced them.

I'm lucky that there's a truck spring shop that does alignments here in town. Only issue is they are always booked a month or so out. They for sure shift subframes/ball joints.

 

[325_Guy]

Only reason I brought up Firestone was because I have lifetime alignments on this car from them. They were running a special a few years ago, lifetime for the same price as a one time. Made sense. But remembering back on it, even then they said that only toe is adjustable on these cars.

I live in a remote area so I’ll be driving to get this done regardless, sounds like I’ll have to call specific places and see if they can adjust the rear wheels, shift the subframe if needed, etc.

 

[pebjr]

325_Guy,
How did you make out with the alignment?
I'm in the process of complete suspension refresh on 09 Jetta and replaced the front control arm bushings, mounting brackets, ball joints, stabilzer connecting links, tie rods ends. I had to drop the subframe down slightly to get the bolt out behind the transmission. Was curious if you had issues with the alignment.
Also, did you replace the subframe bolts? I didn't know I had to drop the subframe so, I didn't order them. I'm placing an order tomorrow for bolts that I didn't realized that I needed..

 

[pebjr]

I hardly ever replace suspension fasteners, unless there is some cause for concern like excessive rust or a mangled thread or something. Just be cautious about how you tighten things down.

Oilhammer, Does that include subframe bolts and TTY bolts?
I'm doing a refresh on my front suspension and didn't realized that I had to drop the subframe to get the bolt out thats behind the transmission? Also, thanks to you for an earlier post you made to another member about getting that bolt out. Using your suggestion made it much easier.

 

[325_Guy]

325_Guy,
How did you make out with the alignment?
I'm in the process of complete suspension refresh on 09 Jetta and replaced the front control arm bushings, mounting brackets, ball joints, stabilzer connecting links, tie rods ends. I had to drop the subframe down slightly to get the bolt out behind the transmission. Was curious if you had issues with the alignment.
Also, did you replace the subframe bolts? I didn't know I had to drop the subframe so, I didn't order them. I'm placing an order tomorrow for bolts that I didn't realized that I needed..

I did great, actually! The indy shop in town did a fantastic job with the alignment and got it center-of-spec on all 4 wheels.

I ended up replacing every bolt that goes through the subframe since I also removed the steering rack and sway bar.

Since I didn't know if the shop would follow the TTY tightening (torque + 90*) on the replacement bolts, for alignment purposes I re-used the old bolts holding the subframe to the body. After the alignment, I drove home gently and replaced those 6 bolts with new ones one at a time so as to maintain the alignment.

 

[pebjr]

I did great, actually! The indy shop in town did a fantastic job with the alignment and got it center-of-spec on all 4 wheels.

I ended up replacing every bolt that goes through the subframe since I also removed the steering rack and sway bar.

Since I didn't know if the shop would follow the TTY tightening (torque + 90*) on the replacement bolts, for alignment purposes I re-used the old bolts holding the subframe to the body. After the alignment, I drove home gently and replaced those 6 bolts with new ones one at a time so as to maintain the alignment.

325_Guy,
Did the bolts come as a kit? Where did your order?

 

[MrCypherr]

Ive thought about getting the subframe kit for the rear subframe on my wagon. Every time I do an alignment, months down the road its out and the tires start to wear again. Everytime its dead on lol. I feel like there is a bushing(s) thats gone because something is shifting for sure.

 

[325_Guy]

325_Guy,
Did the bolts come as a kit? Where did your order?

They sure didn't! Here's what you'll need:
VW Part # / Quantity / Location
N91073401 / 4 / anti-roll (sway) bar to subframe
N10579702 / 8 / 4 for steering rack to subframe, 4 for front LCA rear bushing brackets (inner bolts) to subframe
N91039801 / 4 / 2 for outer front LCA rear bushing brackets, 2 for front subframe bracket to body
WHT000434A / 2 / rear subframe bolts to body

That's all you need if you left the left/right subframe brackets on the subframe. If you took those off, you'll need these too:
N10528602 / 2 / left/right subframe brackets to subframe

Per the workshop manual, you should be replacing the lower pendulum (dogbone) mount bolts too:
N91066101
N91167101
N10558002

Where do I get them? Right now I get them from Oklahoma City Volkswagen, parts.okcvw.com. They offer about a 30-40% discount on MSRP and ship quickly. They're also close by me (I'm in Texas).

If you go to parts.vw.com you can shop various dealers and see who offers the best pricing and who's close by you.

You can also get them from IDParts, FCP Euro, etc, but I've noticed that they charge MSRP, which of course is fine, but if you do a little research you can beat it by a good amount.

 

[pebjr]

Thanks so much!
I just received parts from FCP Euro ... will be installing tomorrow.

 

[pebjr]

Finally got everything installed 2 weeks ago. Went by the Bently manual. Due to work schedule wasn't able to get to alignment shop till last week. The alignment for the front went great. I did a complete front in refresh and was surprised how close I got the alignment.