ALH TDI engine transplant into '84 Vanagon

[AndyBees]

Bellhousing and timing mark issues

Andy, I noticed that you are using the same bell housing that my son and I are using on our '82 Westy TDI conversion. We are using an AHU engine where you are using an ALH, but I suspect we are having a problem that you delt with.

When I put the flywheel on the crankshaft then put the bell housing on, the fly wheel timing mark does not line up with the timing inspection port pointer in the bell housing. It looks like it is about 90 degrees off.

I am thinking I will set our engine to TDC using an old AHU bell housing we have in the shop, then put the Vanagon bell housing on and scribe a mark on the fly wheel and pressure plate that line up with the Vanagon inspection port pointer.

Having an accurate way to line up TDC will be critical for future timing belt changes.

Did you have this problem and if so, how did you solve it?

Actually, I've not got that far yet. However, I'm following the path that Markward took. I'll be using the 1.6 flywheel, pressure plate and clutch disk. He claims no issues and seems to work just fine after several thousand miles. Sounds like you have come up with a very good way to address the issue.

At the present, I'm modifiying the Vanagon Cluster to accept the TDI cluster (photos will be posted). Also, I'm dealing with the oil pan/oil pump pick-up tube and motor mount issues.

 

[markward]

Are you using the stock vanagon diesel flywheel?

 

[AndyBees]

Stock Vanagon Flywheel

Are you using the stock vanagon diesel flywheel?

Yep, I'm using the stock flywheel and clutch assembly, 215mm. I had the Flywheel cut slightly to have a good clean surface (see pics earlier in this Thread). Also, I will be using a NEW pressure plate and clutch disk.

 

[markward]

Andy, I know you are using stock, I was wondering what PJ Diesel was fitting up. If you can determine true TDC, it would be fine to make a new mark, but be absolutely sure you are correct. Not so important now, but when the time comes to change the timing belt it will be. You could also make a mark and reference on the belt side of the engine for future reference. That is where you will be looking when you change the belt anyhow. mark

 

[jjordan11]

We're using a AHU style flywheel with a 228mm 2.0 air-cooled clutch disk and a pressure plate from a 1.8T beetle (I'm not 100% sure about this pressure plate, the throwout forks protrude a bit more than the stock diesel's forks), I'll have to do some checking once it's together. I decided to mark both sides (belt side and flywheel side).

 

[AndyBees]

You know, over at 101, the "specialists" will give you a reaming when you mention "marking." So funny, of all the years I have maintained my own vehicles as well as a good number of family member vehicles, I had never heard or read about the term "mark and pray" until I become a member of this forum.

In your case, and maybe mine some day when I decide to use a different flywheel, there will be a need to "mark."

What's so ironic is the fact that the engine comes from the factory "marked" and I'd say a good number of folks do a little praying every time they do a TB change!

Well, I'm hopeful that the 215mm clutch will serve my needs! I had the flywheel surface slightly milled and will be installing a new clutch disk and pressure plate.

 

[jjordan11]

Have you been able to work on yours much? How's the cluster coming along?

 

[AndyBees]

Actually, since early March, my father, who will be 85 next month, has not been doing very well. I've spent a lot of time with him as well as taking care of his needs, etc.

Working on the Vanagon conversion project has been pretty much on back burner. However, I do have the TDI Cluster and Vanagon Cluster Housing marked for cutting. Hopefully, next week after the holiday, I can get back to it.

As I recently told rsxsr (Mark), the oil pan mod got screwed up... my fault. So, I've found another welder that's willing to tackle the job of correcting it. I'll be getting it to him next week also. I plan to bolt the tranny to the engine which is sitting on a temporary mounting table.

I have some ideas about my turbo. I've considered using a Vanagon Manifold to move the Turbo forward away from the engine mount.... long story how to accomplish that. If I go that way, I'll make photos and post!

 

[AndyBees]

Transplant update!

An over-due update:

I finally moved the engine out of its storage place. It has been sitting in my basement level garage since the Fall of '07..... wife is happy that I moved it out.

It's now in my workshop hanging from a Block and Tackle. I've drained the oil, removed the TB cover, and removed the Valve Cover. I'm inspecting it to determine if there is anything that could and should be eliminated, i.e. exhaust cooler for the EGR system.

Anyway, I also set and locked the engine on TDC. I will be temporarily bolting up the Diesel Bellhousing to "mark" the spot where the TDC timing mark groove will be cut on the flywheel. (I'm not sure if the 1.6 flywheel TDC timing mark will be in the "window.")

The oil plug has been out a couple of days draining the oil. Of course, since this engine has not been started since sometime in 2007, the vast majority of the oil has all drained to the oil pan.... so, I'm guessing the oil pump and pick-up tube/strainer will not be too messy when removed.

The oil pick-up tube/strainer will have to be modified for the 50 degree layover angle of the engine in its new home and to fit into the new modified/fabricated oil pan!

 

[AndyBees]

*EDIT: I did not make a Jig as described below (not at all)... read on.

Well, I'm going ahead with making a wood JIG to hold my engine/carrier bars/tranny, etc., so that I can fabricate the motor mounts prior to installing in the Van. Due to garage space, etc., I'm thinking this will allow me to work as I can and let it lay as may be necessary.

When I get the JIG prepared, I'll post photos.

Right now, I need to know the demensions for locating the carrier bars. I need the distance the carriers are apart, at the front and at the back..... say from center to center or first inside bolt hole on one side to the same bolt hole on the other side. Seems there is no info in the Bentley, etc., for such.

 

[manual_tranny]

You know, over at 101, the "specialists" will give you a reaming when you mention "marking." So funny, of all the years I have maintained my own vehicles as well as a good number of family member vehicles, I had never heard or read about the term "mark and pray" until I become a member of this forum.

In your case, and maybe mine some day when I decide to use a different flywheel, there will be a need to "mark."

What an excellent thread! For marking the bellhousing, why not use a little fingernail polish? The gurus won't give you a hard time, I know one who paints a bright pink TDC on the bellhousing to make it easy to find. The "mark and pray" marks that are bad news are if you're marking your cam pulley and your IP pulley... marks there suggest that the mechanic doesn't know how to properly tension the belt.

What's so ironic is the fact that the engine comes from the factory "marked" and I'd say a good number of folks do a little praying every time they do a TB change!

Funny...

 

[AndyBees]

Charting the way for future maintenance

Actually, Manual Tranny, I'm very much aware of what Mark and Pray means (now)...LOL.

So, that the readers don't misunderstand the discussion, mounting a TDI engine to a bell housing from an early 1980's Diesel Vanagon tranny requires identifying the TDC position of the flywheel for future TB changes, etc. (if it doesn't match/show).

Right now, the engine is hanging from a Block and Tackle with the Cam lock-plate in place and the IP lock-pin in place... TDC on the crank! I just need to install the flywheel and bell housing to see how things line up!

Funny? Yes! They won't admit it, but I'd say, even the gurus feel a sigh of relief after a TB job is finished and upon hitting the starter the engine springs to life without "any" unusual sounds......LOL

 

[jjordan11]

I would like to help, but I think I'll leave the measuring to Mark. Our westy isn't here, it's at my parent's house getting pampered (cleaned). I have the 82' bars and I've heard the 83+ are better, I'm not too sure about the mounting points either, if they are the same.

Jon

 

[Growler]

Funny? Yes! They won't admit it, but I'd say, even the gurus feel a sigh of relief after a TB job is finished and upon hitting the starter the engine springs to life without "any" unusual sounds......LOL

I am not afraid to admit that I for one am Thrilled to hear an engine come back to life after I have ripped its guts out and replaced everything in the timing belt path that needs doing. even tho I use all of the proper locks, and bar the engine over by hand a few revolutions to feel for anything amiss before it gets started with the key.

and there is nothing at all wrong with using any method available to mark out a good TDC mark on a flywheel, when you are liberally grabbing from the VW/Lego parts bin to put together something you really want.

Enjoy the build, I know I am.

 

[AndyBees]

Thanks Aaron for those kind remarks.

Yep, today I have been working with the flywheel/bellhousing and engine trying to determine the TDC position. Looks as if a very fine cut on the flyhwheel with the Drimel tool is the best option.

I'll post photos later!

 

[Growler]

personally I use a sharp screwdriver and a mallet.. makes a nice indent in the corner of the flywheel where the TDC mark is found that is also easy to spot.

granted, I do this with the flywheel mounted in a vise most of the time, but i have done it before thru the inspection/TDC lineup hole on an ALH in a pinch.

 

[markward]

Andy, were you able to determine if the 8mm welded nuts were in your rear valance? It would be hard for me to determine the rear width from mine because I ended up reindexing my r/s carrier to make room for the AC compressor. I think your best be is if the bars can be bolted up to the chassis, do that and then tack weld some braces to hold them in place while you remove them to mockup your jig/fixture. Are you using the early bars or the later ones? The early bars had a cross brace of flat stock that bolted under the engine mid way between the carrier bars. One end was slotted by the factory so there must be some wiggle room. I fabricated my own from tube once I had the saab mounts fab'd up. I should have the factory strap from before. I can measure the distance if that helps. Let me know if you have the weld nuts on the rear valance and we can go from there. mark

 

[AndyBees]

Mark, this morning I took a look for the welded nuts. It appears they are there. Hopefully later today I will be able to confirm for sure upon removing the heat shields.

Based on your description, apparently I have the early model carrier bars. In fact, I have three sets, of which two are complete sets..... things I picked up in deals a few years ago.

 

[markward]

Andy, I would for sure then bolt up the bars and then make your jig rather than counting on someone's measurements. I still think you are heading in the wrong direction. I don't have pictures, but the transmission mount is really going to dicate where the engine ends up. The aircooled transmission while the case is similar to the diesel had a different transmission mount bracket. It is hard for me to explain, but the stock diesel installation had the transmission and engine drooped like a loaded diaper. The air cooled installation was more level. The last section of shift rod was also different between the air cooled and diesel to make up for this droop. You have a later chassis that had the newer transmission. It located the engine further back because the transmission was longer. These are very subtle differences to the eye. Without out all 3 versions even my trained eye would have missed this. I really think you should be doing your fabrication with the transmission bolted up to the chassis and the engine connected to the transmission but supported.

In an unrelated thread I read, someone notice the input shaft in the VW transmission is off center as well. If you look at the chassis where the rubber transmission bolt mounts, you will see two sets of mounting holes. One set is offset from center. My original setup used the offset holes and the new setup used the centered holes. When installing the earlier TDI into a vanagon, for the most part you are utilizing the same mounting brackets. The ALH installation will need to be fitted as you are finding out. I hate to see you get something fabricated up and then find the engine is not centered or level. A little droop is ok and so is a little off center, but better when fabricating to work with the center line of the chassis and level so you can always repeat your measurements. Andy, I know this is not what you want to hear, but unless you are luckier than me, you are bound to hit a snag using parts from 3 eras of Vanagons plus a modern TDI engine. My nozzles came in last Saturday. mark

 

[AndyBees]

Mark, today, I completed a rebuild of my Pressure washer pump. This old pump has not been used much and I was afraid everything inside would go kaput.

It's my plan to pressure wash the WBXer engine, tranny, engine bay, tranny bay, etc., before pulling the engine. Also, I am going to pressure wash the TDI engine. It has a lot of road "grit" on it.

I have put the "jig" on hold for the moment. And, I'm beginning to appreciate where you're trying to keep me from going! Andy

 

[jjordan11]

Hi Andy, I agree with Mark. Just my 2 cents . Cool about the nozzles Mark.

Jon

 

[markward]

Jon, it is your fault I purchased the nozzles. I was content to zoom around with the stock setup, but your bragging got me to reading up on improving performance. If I twist the clutch out of it, I am sending you the bill. Bernd Jäger from looking at their website has an upgraded input shaft so that you can use the VR6 clutch package with the 090 transmission. My german is poor at best, so till I need to upgrade the clutch, I won't be bothering him. mark

 

[jjordan11]

Hahahaha, that's funny. What nozzles did you end up getting?

 

[markward]

IDI Parts had the Bozzio Sprint 520's for around $175.00. They are supposed to be equivalent to the nozzles that came in the european delivered TDI's. I like the idea of this upgrade because it can easily be put back if I am not happy with the result or economy. We have a chassis dyno in the shop, and I have a baseline from last year to compare against. I also have the EGR delete intake pipe and have already upgraded my original intake plumbing and exhaust system. On a small engine a 20hp gain at the wheels is about a 20% increase in power over stock. Not bad for $175.

I made a tool to pull the injectors using a early diesel injector for sizing, but from my inquiry here, the injector threads are 14mm x 1.5. I find that hard to believe, but have seen that in a couple places. I stopped by the hardware store today to pickup that size nut to make another adapter for my slide hammer. The early injector is a 12mm thread. mark

 

[markward]

Hey Andy, I noticed your thread had dropped off the conversion page. So here is a bump. Any progress? My calibrated injectors should be here tomorrow hopefully. FedEx has had them since July 28th. I don't know if I sent you these links from our road trip. Still trying to get the hang of editing video and the camera settings etc. They should get you in the mood to get working. Hope your family is well. mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LeFDKoHWVM

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcGpoQeYmmU

 

[AndyBees]

Guys, for the last couple of weeks, I've been busy working on TDIs .. tranny replacement and clutch in a 98 NB and then a clutch in a 99 NB.

Today, I finished a TB job on an '03 TDI Wagon... original belt at just under 120k miles. The dude had been using regular Dino diesel rated oil... changed it every 3000 miles.

The Intake was plugged worse than I have ever seen! It was down to about the size of a dime, maybe a nickel. Oddly, the Actuator on the Turbo was free through-out the travel. It took me about five hours to remove and replace the Intake as well as clean the EGR assembly. I had an Intake cleaned and ready for use! The one I took off is soaking now...... amazing what a pressure washer will do for them!

I'm heading to Dans GTG in Chapin, SC this weekend. I'll be taking some parts for Jimbote. This is my first GTG.... sort of looking forward to meeting some folks!

Hopefully, I'll be able to get back to my project soon. ...... Oh, I did pressure wash the TDI engine. It looks like just come out of a crate. I also pressure washed the outside of my replacement fuel tank for the Vanagon! It is perfect inside...no rust at all.

 

[jjordan11]

Ah, retired life . J/K That's good to be staying busy. I know I'm looking forward to a little cooler weather to start back up on my other projects.

Jon

 

[AndyBees]

Guys, the weather is very hot here also! The temp today on my dad's open carport was 98F on one thermometer and 97F on the other. One must be lying.

Here are a couple photos of my present garage. These were taken early this past spring. The structure is only 18' X 24' with 9' ceiling. It has ample room to work on TDIs and Vanagons. My larger structure is still under construction (sort of). It will be 30' X 54' and 9' ceiling.

Notice the AC system in the second photo. That's a 23,000 BTU 220 volt window unit converted to a modified central system... works nice! Also, all those trees are in full foliage casting a nice shade in the afternoon hot hours! It was almost cold enough inside yesterday to hang meat!....LOL

 

[markward]

Nozzel Update

Andy and Jon, got the injectors back from Kerma last week. They installed pretty quickly and bled off easily. The van started right up. Have not been on the dyno, but seat of the pants, the van really seems to scoot along. With my gear, it takes about an 1/8 of an inch of accel pedal to maintain 55mph, so it is definitely getting more fuel.

I had read I might need to increase the injection quantity with larger nozzles. When I resealed the pump with stock adaption, the IQ was between 3 and 4. As I had read, my stutter on decleration came back. With the laptop I was able to lower the adaption number and get the IQ between 5 and 6 at idle but ran out of software adjustment. I realize I can get more adjustment with the "hammer mod" but was wondering how much is to much IQ? I realize the range is 3 to 9. After lowering the IQ as much as I can, the stutter is gone, but just as I come to a stop there is a lull where the engine rpm drops and I can hear/feel a transistion where the engine idles rough and then clears out. I can see the IQ drop to zero during this transition. It is something I can live with, but like anything, if you get away from stock, driveablity things may come up.

I will post the power improvement once I get it on the dyno. mark

 

[jjordan11]

Awesome about getting the Nozzles in and the Vanagon running again, it'll be fun to see the numbers.

I just got my tool back to do the hammer mod, my vanagon has had a off coast shudder that got better with the electronic adjustment, but it needs the hammer mod to make it perfect. I'll post the exact numbers it takes to correct my shudder (I do have the 11mm pump though, so that is different).

I did take the vag-com on a short trip this weekend and my numbers were much better for the IAT's cruising at 65 before the IAT's would be around 85C, 75 would result in higher. Now at 65mph they are 50-55C and the highest I saw was 64C. I didn't hit any prolonged hills though, but definitely improved numbers. I think the heat exchanger is fully bled now.

Jon