ALH piston, rod & ring Upgrade?

vtpsd

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Right, I get that. There are people making over 300whp on stock bottom ends and racing the cars in standing mile races, and also daily driving them. They are out there, people say the Finns lie about their dyno numbers, but I think they just have a good recipe for making powerful TDI's stay together on a budget.

I would not build the bottom end at those levels, I think it is unnecessary. That is only my opinion.

just curious, what turbo are you running?
 

D-cappz

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Right, I get that. There are people making over 300whp on stock bottom ends and racing the cars in standing mile races, and also daily driving them. They are out there, people say the Finns lie about their dyno numbers, but I think they just have a good recipe for making powerful TDI's stay together on a budget.
I would not build the bottom end at those levels, I think it is unnecessary. That is only my opinion.
just curious, what turbo are you running?
I am running a series 7 Borg Worner turbo. With a possible future upgrade to the 17/26 or 1756VK.

I blew my head gasket at this power, and Jonamond did some serious damage to his ALH with around 170-180whp.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=347088&page=6

I don't want to run into the same issues. If I want to do my rings while my head is up, I might as well do the pistons. If I do the pistons I might as well upgrade the rods. That is my thought.
 

D-cappz

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I have also ran into this possible problem. If I stay with the ALH pistons, I may have to get the valve reliefs cut larger anyways.

I have got over sized valves for my head.
The intake valve is upgraded to 37mm (actual measurement comes to 36.9mm). The intake valve relief on the stock ALH piston is around 37.72mm to 38.28mm depending if you measure from the top or bottom of the relief.

This is a picture of OS valve with stock ALH piston (core piston).


The exhaust valve is upgraded to 33.5mm (actual measurement comes to 33.55mm). The exhaust relief on the stock ALH piston is around 33.7mm to 34mm depending if you measure from the top or bottom of the relief.

This is pictures of OS valve with stock ALH piston (core piston).



Now the exhaust valve & relief edge are really close. I think I would need to get those reliefs cut larger.
 

D-cappz

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ASV Piston VS ALH Piston

Today I got a set of Nural Standard size ASV Pistons.
Part Numbers:
87-114900-60 & -70

The ASV pistons have oil galleys, a thicker crown (lower piston ring), deeper bowl and a shorter piston, but only shorter from bottom to top, not pin to top of crown.

ASV Piston on Left, Stock ALH on Right.




As you can see the Stock ALH piston looks larger in size than the ASV pistons.

Stock ALH Piston


ASV Piston


It is, but from my measurements it seems that it shouldn't sit any lower in the block, the protrusion should be the same-ish.

Stock ALH Piston


ASV Piston


The lip on the bottom of the Stock ALH piston is larger than the ASV making it larger when on a flat surface.

ASV Piston on the Left, Stock ALH piston on the right


The crown on the ASV is thicker by almost 3mm

ASV on the left, Stock ALH on the right


Stock ALH Piston


ASV Piston
 
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D-cappz

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The bowl on the ASV piston is larger then the Stock ALH piston.

ASV Piston on the left, Stock ALH Piston on the right


Here I measured the depth of the pistons. The ASV piston is almost 1mm deeper than the Stock ALH piston.

Stock ALH Piston


ALH Bowl width


ASV Piston


Another way that I tested this was I weighed the pistons, then I filled each bowl with water to the top.
The Stock ALH piston WITHOUT piston rings weighed 759 grams
The ASV piston WITH piston rings weighed 771 grams.
The pins weighed exactly the same at 207g. The only difference is the ASV HAS rings on it and the stock ALH does NOT.

Stock ALH Piston


ASV Piston


Then I filled the bowls with water. The Stock ALH piston gained another 21 grams, where as the ASV gained another 24 grams.

Stock ALH Piston


ASV Piston


The ASV piston also seems to be 0.10mm larger in diameter. I dont know if that is due to wear or not.

Stock ALH Piston


ASV Piston
 
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D-cappz

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ALH OEM piston has 79.44mm marked on the top of the piston
The skirt measured at 79.40mm



ASV piston has 79.46mm marked on the top of the piston
The skirt measured at 79.46mm


The ASV pistons also have the oil cooling galleries. There are 3 holes, which are all connect, I tested this by blowing water through a straw into the oil galleries. The oil jet will squirt into the gallery with the notch in the piston skirt.

ASV Piston on the Bottom, Stock ALH on the Top


ASV Piston oil galleries


The valve reliefs seem to measure at very close to the same size, if not the same.
 
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kooyajerms

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ASV pistons can handle the 230whp.

I think the failures mentioned are very much due to early onset boost ;). The way the Fins get their 250-300whp on their stock bottom ends seems to be their late max boost request. look at the dynos and you see how high up the RPM band the torque and hp are. That's beneficial to their standing mile attacks too. People want their max boost below 2000rpms then 1800rpms with the larger turbos then they wonder why things are unhappy. Maybe the new GTBS/GTC's VKLRKZSSSSSS can get you there but just don't be unreasonable with your tuner.

If I had more sense than money when I did my own build I could have foregone a lot of parts. But after having your own engine destruction, you look for some safety in numbers $$$

Don't fret about the pistons so much. I think you're over analyzing a small .5 oversized or 1 compression point on the ARLs. The data is great though thank. If your goal is what you say it is, you'll be fine with ASV's. Don't request for 27-30psi by 1700rpms. Don't launch a cold engine. Don't overfuel and run with a lot of smoke *all the time*. Don't run used turbos from strangers.

GTG.
 

vtpsd

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ASV pistons can handle the 230whp.
I think the failures mentioned are very much due to early onset boost ;). The way the Fins get their 250-300whp on their stock bottom ends seems to be their late max boost request. look at the dynos and you see how high up the RPM band the torque and hp are. That's beneficial to their standing mile attacks too. People want their max boost below 2000rpms then 1800rpms with the larger turbos then they wonder why things are unhappy. Maybe the new GTBS/GTC's VKLRKZSSSSSS can get you there but just don't be unreasonable with your tuner.
If I had more sense than money when I did my own build I could have foregone a lot of parts. But after having your own engine destruction, you look for some safety in numbers $$$
Don't fret about the pistons so much. I think you're over analyzing a small .5 oversized or 1 compression point on the ARLs. The data is great though thank. If your goal is what you say it is, you'll be fine with ASV's. Don't request for 27-30psi by 1700rpms. Don't launch a cold engine. Don't overfuel and run with a lot of smoke *all the time*. Don't run used turbos from strangers.
GTG.
amen!
 

D-cappz

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My Dyno

ASV pistons can handle the 230whp.

I think the failures mentioned are very much due to early onset boost ;). The way the Fins get their 250-300whp on their stock bottom ends seems to be their late max boost request. look at the dynos and you see how high up the RPM band the torque and hp are. That's beneficial to their standing mile attacks too. People want their max boost below 2000rpms then 1800rpms with the larger turbos then they wonder why things are unhappy. Maybe the new GTBS/GTC's VKLRKZSSSSSS can get you there but just don't be unreasonable with your tuner.

If I had more sense than money when I did my own build I could have foregone a lot of parts. But after having your own engine destruction, you look for some safety in numbers $$$

Don't fret about the pistons so much. I think you're over analyzing a small .5 oversized or 1 compression point on the ARLs. The data is great though thank. If your goal is what you say it is, you'll be fine with ASV's. Don't request for 27-30psi by 1700rpms. Don't launch a cold engine. Don't overfuel and run with a lot of smoke *all the time*. Don't run used turbos from strangers.

GTG.

Thank you for the information. =D

Here is a Dyno run I did on June 25, 2016

There was 4 runs done, but only 2 that were printed.

Now something els I ran into was that the standard piston size may need to be changed once my block is measured. If I have oval holes, I would have to Bore and possibly shave the block then go to a ASV .5 over.

On the ASV .5 over (I dont have piston in hand) the valve reliefs are designed a little differently from what I can see.
QUESTION:
What is the reason for that, and does it have any effects on the way the engine would run? Compression? or anything at all??

ASV Piston .5 Over
 
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kooyajerms

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This is my last dyno I did. We tweaked it a lot after this but then I had babies =)
See that big mass of area where my hp is above 200? That's the way I like it. Sure my boost isn't maxing at 2000, but the area under the line is nice and steady throughout.


Can't get a screen shot but here's the a stock bottom end +300hp dyno FIN: p0wer
https://youtu.be/21HOro2ZUq8?t=215
see how late they are with the boost? Max torque at 4300rpms. but he's pretty much going till 6000.

For what his goals are in max power I bet it's fun, but I aint got no time to be driving around that fast in my daily. I'd rather max torque a bit sooner just for the feel of it. That's why people love their 17's max boost close to 2000. Feels great.

I think if you can keep max boost around 2200 like your dyno shows, and get fueling and air to keep up with the new turbo. You'll be a happy camper
 
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john.jackson9213

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I tend to agree that you are over analyzing the issues here. I can be guilty of the same thing.
Right now, I am running a stock 1Z internals with close to 300K miles on it. But I have Race 520 nozzles, an 11 mm pump and a GTC1549VZ turbo from a 170 hp factory stock TDI. Your turbo comes from either a 130 or 150 hp factory stock TDI. My tune is set for 26 psi max boost and is all in very early. So my dyno results are about the same as yours. 173hp vs 181hp and 313 lb/ft vs 325 lb/ft on different dynos. BTW, my car was tuned on exactly the same dyno Kooyajerms tuned his.
IBW ran a 17/22 turbo for about 100K miles on both the street and the track. He was getting about the same power and wound up with slightly twisted rods come rebuild time.

When the time comes to rebuild my engine, I have a ported head, ASV pistions and will buy some stronger rods. Most importantly, I will upgrade the stock head bolts to 12.9 class bolts. That will let me retune the engine for the max air flow my turbo will support - something around 200 hp and 350 lb/ft.
 

john.jackson9213

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I will be very surprised if you find much wear in your block, much less measurable wear.
I had an engine with 300k and a blown head gasket. The original hone pattern was still visible in the cylinders. Had a retired tool maker from Solar Turbines measure the bores. He was surprised to find no taper and stock measurements up and down the bores. My spare engine has only 130K miles on it and no bore wear also. But you do have to measure what you have to be sure.
 

D-cappz

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I tend to agree that you are over analyzing the issues here. I can be guilty of the same thing.
Right now, I am running a stock 1Z internals with close to 300K miles on it. But I have Race 520 nozzles, an 11 mm pump and a GTC1549VZ turbo from a 170 hp factory stock TDI. Your turbo comes from either a 130 or 150 hp factory stock TDI. My tune is set for 26 psi max boost and is all in very early. So my dyno results are about the same as yours. 173hp vs 181hp and 313 lb/ft vs 325 lb/ft on different dynos. BTW, my car was tuned on exactly the same dyno Kooyajerms tuned his.
IBW ran a 17/22 turbo for about 100K miles on both the street and the track. He was getting about the same power and wound up with slightly twisted rods come rebuild time.

When the time comes to rebuild my engine, I have a ported head, ASV pistions and will buy some stronger rods. Most importantly, I will upgrade the stock head bolts to 12.9 class bolts. That will let me retune the engine for the max air flow my turbo will support - something around 200 hp and 350 lb/ft.
I just don't want to miss any important steps that could be crucial when rebuilding the TDI engine.

Iv got myself some ARP Head studs that will be going on once everything is put back together.

New Head with OS Valves


ARP Head studs


I will be very surprised if you find much wear in your block, much less measurable wear.
I had an engine with 300k and a blown head gasket. The original hone pattern was still visible in the cylinders. Had a retired tool maker from Solar Turbines measure the bores. He was surprised to find no taper and stock measurements up and down the bores. My spare engine has only 130K miles on it and no bore wear also. But you do have to measure what you have to be sure.
If it isn't worn, I will most likely be sticking with the standard size pistons.
 

D-cappz

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This is my last dyno I did. We tweaked it a lot after this but then I had babies =)
See that big mass of area where my hp is above 200? That's the way I like it. Sure my boost isn't maxing at 2000, but the area under the line is nice and steady throughout.


Can't get a screen shot but here's the a stock bottom end +300hp dyno FIN: p0wer
https://youtu.be/21HOro2ZUq8?t=215
see how late they are with the boost? Max torque at 4300rpms. but he's pretty much going till 6000.

For what his goals are in max power I bet it's fun, but I aint got no time to be driving around that fast in my daily. I'd rather max torque a bit sooner just for the feel of it. That's why people love their 17's max boost close to 2000. Feels great.

I think if you can keep max boost around 2200 like your dyno shows, and get fueling and air to keep up with the new turbo. You'll be a happy camper

I just want to make sure when I rebuild this engine im not going to be breaking/bending rods, or melting pistons or anything like that.
This is why I have been looking into the pistons and rods as much as possible.

This is also my daily driver.
 
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Franko6

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Does anyone wonder why every single VW engine from 2004 to current have beveled wrist pins? On all these engines have between 100-170hp. And yes, they are I-beams. I-beams are cheaper to make and price drives that market.

I could not agree more that stock rods propensity to bend make me leave the I-beams behind, stock or anything else... and work with H-beams.

This is not just my thinking, but from a rod designer with nearly 50 years experience, two companies he has built, now on his third, and he is a consultant in the rod manufacturing industry for a lot of the big-name companies people talk about.

I'm not going to get into CR too much, but lowering CR is a friendly thing to do with a big build. .5 is not much. Mid range, we like the BHW 81mm pistons with 18.25 CR. BRM style pistons 79.5mm pistons are 19.0 CR. Crafters are 16.8 for monster builds. So don't think .5 loss is a big deal. I'd go bigger.

Last thing. Weight. Our H-beams are almost 100 grams lighter than our competitor's I-beam. Pistons with an oil galley are lighter. All pistons with beveled wrist pin bushings and rods also have lightened wrist pins, which weight about 60 grams less.

Yeah, I like the beveled wrist pinned pistons for a lot of reasons.
 

D-cappz

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Rod design

Ok I think iv decided that I will be going with the ASV pistons, I am not sure if it will be standard or 0.5 over till. I have the engine apart and get some measuring done.

Connecting rods:
From what I've read and been told, the H-beam rods are the best design for compression strength. They are better for high compression, low rpm and high torque applications.

But for the connecting rod there are different designs that I can go with. This is where information is really hard to find, so if someone can supply some good information and some pictures that would be really appreciated.

Here is a stock ALH connecting rod. Which I believe is an I-beam design. The stock ALH connecting rod weighs 732 grams with the bearing.










Connecting rods
I-beam on the right, H-beam in the center and X-beam on the left


Another angle of the H-beam non-tapered small end.


Now I am looking for a rod that won't prematurely wear out the bearings or pins.

1. What is a beveled wrist pin design and how is that different then the square ALH style pin?

Answer:
Beveled wrist pin on the Left 203g
Square/non beveled wrist pin on the Right 207g


2. Is it better to go with a Tapered connecting rod or non tapered?
Answer:
depends on the piston you get.
Tapered reduces weight slightly and has better pin lubrication
 
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D-cappz

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I would not put this Chinese brand in my car, it's just to show the tapered small end.
Here is what the Tapered small end connecting rod looks like. These would be for the ARL pistons.






Now I am looking for a rod that won't prematurely wear out the bearings or pins.

1. What is a beveled wrist pin design and how is that different then the square ALH style pin?

2. Is it better to go with a Tapered connecting rod or non tapered?

I am very much confused when it gets into these things.
 
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john.jackson9213

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I have a relatively simple solution when TDI things confuse me. Just look at what the factory does with their high power engines and take the lead from there. The factory has years and years of testing and experience to make these TDI engine rotating assemblies live very long lives in millions of cars. So take a look at the rods the factory uses for their high power engines and you will find a very good answer.
 

D-cappz

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I have a relatively simple solution when TDI things confuse me. Just look at what the factory does with their high power engines and take the lead from there. The factory has years and years of testing and experience to make these TDI engine rotating assemblies live very long lives in millions of cars. So take a look at the rods the factory uses for their high power engines and you will find a very good answer.
Most companies are trying to save money, thus opting for a cheaper build.
The Canadian and US TDI's are build with so much plastic where as the Euro TDI's are alot stronger and have a lot more metal. Again they do this to the imports to save money.

When it comes to the rods, I just dont know what they look like or why they are made that way.
 

john.jackson9213

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VW does not import any high output diesel engine to North America. Europe gets all the High Output stuff. That is where to look for the stronger parts like the ASV pistions. Same thing with your "S7" turbo, my GTC1549VZ turbo. That is where you will find the stronger factory rods along with all the best parts.
 

D-cappz

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VW does not import any high output diesel engine to North America. Europe gets all the High Output stuff. That is where to look for the stronger parts like the ASV pistions. Same thing with your "S7" turbo, my GTC1549VZ turbo. That is where you will find the stronger factory rods along with all the best parts.
Yes I do know that you cannot get the high output engines over here, but compared to the VW TDI models over there, the TDI models here are made with a lot more cheap plastic parts to save money I guess, but that is all I was saying. I have the option to choose which rods and pistons I would like and what work the best, where they work with other companies to make the parts for them.
 
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D-cappz

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Questions I would like to know.

Now I am looking for a rod that won't prematurely wear out the bearings or pins.

1. What is a beveled wrist pin design and how is that different then the square ALH style pin?

2. Is it better to go with a Tapered connecting rod or non tapered?
 

Macradiators.com

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Maxspeeding rods are chinese stuff i wouldn't put in my car, not on such an important element anyway. I can Save money on any non important element.
Just ordered Rosten rods + bearings, made in US by Pauter if i got it right.
 

D-cappz

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Maxspeeding rods are chinese stuff i wouldn't put in my car, not on such an important element anyway. I can Save money on any non important element.
Just ordered Rosten rods + bearings, made in US by Pauter if i got it right.
Ya I wouldn't put the ebay rods in my car, I just took the picture from there just to show what a Tapered small end rod looks like.

From my understanding Roston either went cheaper (Chinese) or stopped making rods for the ALH. That's why I am looking into getting the IE Tuscan rods or the rod Frank sells.
 
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D-cappz

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Does anyone wonder why every single VW engine from 2004 to current have beveled wrist pins? On all these engines have between 100-170hp. And yes, they are I-beams. I-beams are cheaper to make and price drives that market.
I could not agree more that stock rods propensity to bend make me leave the I-beams behind, stock or anything else... and work with H-beams.
This is not just my thinking, but from a rod designer with nearly 50 years experience, two companies he has built, now on his third, and he is a consultant in the rod manufacturing industry for a lot of the big-name companies people talk about.
I'm not going to get into CR too much, but lowering CR is a friendly thing to do with a big build. .5 is not much. Mid range, we like the BHW 81mm pistons with 18.25 CR. BRM style pistons 79.5mm pistons are 19.0 CR. Crafters are 16.8 for monster builds. So don't think .5 loss is a big deal. I'd go bigger.
Last thing. Weight. Our H-beams are almost 100 grams lighter than our competitor's I-beam. Pistons with an oil galley are lighter. All pistons with beveled wrist pin bushings and rods also have lightened wrist pins, which weight about 60 grams less.
Yeah, I like the beveled wrist pinned pistons for a lot of reasons.
What is the difference between beveled and non beveled wrist pins?
Why do you like beveled wrist pins better?
When u say beveled, that isn't the same as Tapered rod end is it?

The ASV pistons with oil galleys turned out to be heavier than the stock ALH pistons. BUT the ALH did not have rings on it.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Beveled wrist pins reduce weight as they are thinner at the ends. JE does this with their forged pistons too. My Caravan runs JE's and their tapered pins, saves a bit of weight where its needed.
 

D-cappz

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Beveled wrist pins reduce weight as they are thinner at the ends. JE does this with their forged pistons too. My Caravan runs JE's and their tapered pins, saves a bit of weight where its needed.
Thanks, it was hard to find any write ups or picture to compare the pins.

If I have a standard ALH piston, is there any pros or cons on going with Tapered small end rods vs non-tapered?

When you say Tapered pins you mean the rod end?
 

jptbay

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When you say Tapered pins you mean the rod end?
Piston wrist pins. Tapered is lighter. Would you notice a difference in an engine build? Doubt it.

Tapered rods not necessary with ASV pistons. You could use tapered rods, but again I wouldn't expect any gain.

On rod ends. Kerma has tapered version of IE tuscan I-beam and claim to be the only ones. For some reason they mistakenly refer to them as H-beam, however I-beams are pictured.. I'm sure a machine shop could put a taper on non-tapered rods if you really wanted though.

http://www.kermatdi.com/integrated-engineering-connecting-rods-pd150-tuscan/
 
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