ALH piston help

AWD

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Aug 2, 2004
Location
Manitoba, Canada
TDI
Golf, 2000, Blue
I had a Piston go south on me. It broke between the oil ring and the 2nd compression ring. I am not sure if it was due to more power or overheating or lack of oil. Are there any good replacement options if I going to replace all 4? I would like to upgrade to something stronger if I can.
Are these good options?
1) http://www.illinoisdynocenter.net/VWTDIJettaGolfNewBeetle.html (oil cooled dome, no idea what brand, expensive)
2) http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~mw105397/dubdoctor/parts_site/tdi-pistons.html (Nural, no oil cooled dome)
3) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-TDI-Pistons-Rings-Diesel-Golf-Jetta-Passat-Beetle_W0QQitemZ250392382893QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item250392382893&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 (Right Way Industrial, may have oil cooled dome, really good price)



Thank you
 
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Rub87

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Ibiza '99 90HP
If you're having the block honed again your best buy be 81mm units of a 2.0 PD8v engine, but then you'll need some PD100 or Rosten rods..

If you don't have it bored and want to keep stock rods, just go for some from an ASV with oil cooled dome.. I don't know which brand are good or which are not..

I don't know the exact pn for these asv with oil cooled dome, I've seen a few asv's wich still had the alh style piston without cooled dome..
 

AWD

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TDI
Golf, 2000, Blue
No I do not have to bore. I am going to get a ball honer and throw in 4 new piston. Kerma has some PD150 pistons. I guess that would mean new rods.
When did they change the ALH piston design? I have a 2000, I am assuming that is the old desgin, Are the new pistons better?
 
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AWD

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Golf, 2000, Blue


What sounds better cermanic coated ALH pistons, or the heavy duty piston? Both are the same price. I am not really up to speed on cermaic coating so I will have to do some searching.
 
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shizzler

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Location
Ann Arbor MI
TDI
05 BEW Wagon
Guys, if you want to be technically correct, the pistons with cooling have a "cooling gallery". I work for Federal-Mogul (Nural), albiet state side and nowhere near production of these specific pistons. The piston cooling nozzles in the engine spray oil up into the gallery which runs circumferentially around the top of the piston. The "dome" in the center of the piston is not really the main beneficiary of this cooling. The edge of the piston bowl and the top ring groove are what need to be kept cool.

Question: Does the stock ALH piston have a cooling gallery? Obviously it has a piston cooling nozzle spraying oil into the underside of the piston crown. But is it specifically targeted towards a cooling gallery in the piston? Is the nozzle a dual-spray design?

Looking at the pistons above, I would have guessed that both holes on the upper right are for oil entry into the piston (and thus the figure is labled incorrectly). If you notice, that is the side of the piston with the narrow rim around the bowl (bowl is offset towards this side). The need for cooling would be much greater on this side. If the oil flow was allowed to simply exit the piston right next to the gallery inlet, little would make it around the piston to the other drain hole. Conversely if there was a wall between the close holes, if they were indeed an entry and an exit, then little oil would make it around the piston past the oppsite corner oil drain hole..... The result of either scenario would be localized heating, and top ring groove durability problems, if not bowl-rim cracking.

Back on topic, make sure you know what the stock ALH piston design is like in terms of oil cooling and entry/exit hole location. If you source some different pistons with alternate hole locations, you may lose proper piston cooling altogether. I just ran a diesel engine at work with intentionally blocked oil cooling spray. The piston ran over 150 degrees C hotter well below 2000rpm and we had to shut it down almost right away for safety (the engine was at full load and being swept through its rpm range). That will destroy your pistons, and likely engine, very very quickly.
 

suffeks

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Location
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TDI
02 GT TDi
Those oil cooled pistons are from a ASV engine. Basically exact same thing as 90hp VE except its 110hp with some minor differences, ie: bigger injectors. Probably why they are cooled to accommodate extra fuel? You'd think the oil sprayers would be the same or similarly close since everything else in that engine is shared.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
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Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Hm. Given how many folks have VE90s that are modded to VE110 or higher levels, if those ASV pistons would work that would be a real advantage to folks.
 

Whitbread

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The ASV pistons are much nicer than stock ALH ones and a great upgrade for a high output motor, but they're not at all worth the 1k Illinois Dyno wants for them. For that price you can get a full set of BHW pistons from a VW stealership :eek:. Franko6 sells the same ASV pistons for about half of what IDC wants; he's waiting on a shipment of them currently (...hint hint Frank, any news on an ETA for them? :D).

Without measuring them with .0001" graduated mics before buying, I wouldn't trust the e bay ones unless you're selling the car immediately. You generally get what you pay for.
 

Keith_J

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West
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2000 Jetta MT
Bob_Fout said:
Hm. Given how many folks have VE90s that are modded to VE110 or higher levels, if those ASV pistons would work that would be a real advantage to folks.
They are a good idea. You can measure EGT. Piston temps? I shudder to think what would happen on those 150+ Ho modified cars if they were driven sustained at that power output. Sure, they will live for a 20 second dyno run.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
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Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
While we're on the topic, other than ASV pistons, what other ones are considered better than stock ALH pistons? (I'm thinking I-5 VE150, or PD100/130/150)
 

suffeks

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Calgary
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02 GT TDi
I just purchased these oil cooled pistons myself. I put in new nurals 5k ago and two of them are now completely worn on the skirts. Too much power I guess haha. Hopefully these last a bit longer ;)

I assume the skirts wore from overheating cause of too much fuel and not enough cooling? I'm definitely making over 200hp so.
 

AWD

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Manitoba, Canada
TDI
Golf, 2000, Blue
Anyone runnig a ceramic coated piston? I have seen lots of post about people putting them in, but no word after that.
Would the ASV piston be tougher than ceramic coated? I would imagine so due to the extra metal
The guy did tell me 895 for the pistons, but still that is a lot of money.
 
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mrchill

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The oil cooled Nurals have been out of stock for over a year....it would be nice if they were available again. There are plenty of Nurals around WITHOUT crown cooling.... Be certain you know what you are buying. I have been using cooled pistons in all the engines I build that are a performance orientation. It helps a lot. Good rods help as well. Also, making certian the oil spray is where it belongs. And dont forget having the right size nozzle for yuor setup..and making certain the spray pattern and pressures are correct.
 

JonFord

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I have used all of the coating you can put on a engine in circle track gasoline engines with great results. I use Polymer Dynamic out of Houston Texas.

On one occation when I was tipping the can, (using a little nitro fuel additive), we didn't get rich enough and we turned the bottoms of the pistions dark blue, but still did not cause melting. I still attribute that to the Polydyn coating on the pistion top and combustion chamber.

JonFord.
 

AWD

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Location
Manitoba, Canada
TDI
Golf, 2000, Blue
Anyone have Franko6 email address? PM'd him, but would really like to know if he has any. I need to get my car going fairly quickly.
 

indysoto

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Mar 14, 2004
Location
Eugene, OR
Right Way Industrial

Anyone running the Right Way Industrial piston's? they got .5 and .1 over and stock for 250.00!
 

ronbros

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Dec 21, 2006
Location
Austin TX
TDI
1982 Isuzu coupe 1.8 Diesel
do they make forged pistons for these engines?? my preference, would be no cooling channel, properly aimed hi volume cooling nozzles, Swain tech coatings GOLD on piston crown, and black teflon side skirts, on forged pistons.
extra oil holes at small end of rod, and be sure of the pin oiling passeges in piston are proper. you can have them made,Custom for you application.
THX Ron
 

mrchill

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Forged pistons can be easily obtained....they are just really expensive. They also are quite noisy when cold and require a good machinist to prepare the cylinders. I want some too...but I cant afford it. Not for a daily driver mind you...but for a top gun. Till then, I use PD style oil cooled pistons and stronger rods. I am also going to go with gapless rings, though I am not sure that is necessary...on forged it is.

If you are serious about race forged, talk to stingray. He has them and his stuff is proven. If you are going to build for performance, stay away from low dollar parts unless you are certain they are of the proper quality. Sometimes they are.... but do you want to find out the hard way? The Nurals seem fine. I suspect any factory brand will be fine as well. Dont forget rods. Factory rods are plenty strong, but become a fuse in the quest for power. But beware, if you replace the rods with a good strong set, the next place to go is a headgasket...these can be notoriously difficult to prevent a re occurance of failure. It can be done though. Sometimes takes a few tries. One must find the root cause and it isnt always the same.
 

Pat Dolan

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2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
AWD:

I have been chasing the illusive PD150 (or whatever they really are), oil gallery pistons ever since my buddy melted down a set of stockers in the ALH I built him last year. Got a set, sent to the coaters, came back....were not supplied as invoiced (no cooling gallery). Charlie and Paul have been going through hell to get a set for me (have them now, maybe give them a call for the straight goods). Off to the coaters for a crown job and finally into the engine.

Chris:

As noted, I am using my first set of these. ARE there different nozzles for this application? Where do I find some? When you mention "correct pressure", are you inferring that the stock oil pump is somehow deficient? Have a set of H-beam steel rods as well, but expect they are comfortably over requirement for what will maybe push 200 HP at best. Aiming for bullet-proof street engine (which in many instance means more abuse than a race engine that gets such careful attention).
 

mojogoes

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england
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mk3 tdi golf
Nozzles application look here.www.kermatdi.com = where you got your pistons from....."correct pressures" i would think are your injectors opening/first stage injection pressures.......some are 190bar / 300bar if your using larger nozzles such as the PP764's/PP502's or R520 nozzles i would use an opening pressure of 220bar.
 

mrchill

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I would start with stock injector pressure unless you have a setup which has been proven to benefit from another pressure. The Nural pistons( I suspect those are the ones you have) work well and dont fail easily...neither do the H beams Kerma carries. If you run a mildy aggressive tune and good fuel control along with proper hardware setup, you will be fine...no problems. If you run high fuel and aggressive timing....your head will try to escape from the block for milliseconds under boost. When not under heavy boost it will be fine.

I would suggest a bit of research from those who have A: been running seriously aggressive power AND B: have had the head off. Both must be true for the results to mean anything for your particular project. Out of curiosity, what are you running for head fasteners and are you doing any custom head work?
 

Pat Dolan

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OK, you guys got a bit ahead of me, but I need to go there soon anyhow.

First, I was referring to piston squirter nozzles, not injector nozzles.

BUT: I bought some of the new 7 hole Fratelli Bosio nozzles (520 stage 2) from Charlie for this stage of development, with an 11mm pump. We will play with the pop pressures as mojo suggests (and Charlie will no doubt insist).

I have done a few TDI heads now, and am getting pretty happy with the results. Learning to increase flow without defeating the port design takes a bit of thinking, a lot of work, a little testing, a few special tools and jigs and a few trashed castings - but it has been worth it. I can knock out an 8 valve gasser or IDI street port job and valve mods in just a couple hours, but the TDI is still a fair day's work......oh, I should warn you.....I'm the gas flow ****.

The head hardware, however, is something I have not concluded as yet. I have heard so many versions of what one can and can not do with ARP, I will probably go with "the other guys". With an 1856, FMIC, what is above and a moderately silly tune (aiming for right around 200 HP). I would ask not to hijack the OP's piston thread, as I will open a new head stud one shortly.
 

mrchill

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200hp is safe...no problem. 200whp can be safe...but will take more work (thus money). Of course this all depends on the dyno and operator. All that aside, you seem to be moving in the right direction. Keep us informed.
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
Pat Dolan said:
BUT: I bought some of the new 7 hole Fratelli Bosio nozzles (520 stage 2) from Charlie for this stage of development, with an 11mm pump.
I would not call this the right direction.. :rolleyes:
 
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