ALH mk1 swap won't start

ColdRice

Active member
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Jan 9, 2021
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Maine
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Golf ALH
True, it's hard to determine. I suppose if it's getting any fuel it must be overcoming the spring pressure and popping, unless there's a issue with the injector. I fired it into a flimsy plastic water bottle, I've heard the spray can cut skin, would it rip through thin plastic? I'm guessing it's only dangerous close to the tip? As you go further out it's mostly mist? Just thinking out loud.

I'm reading 38 in value 02. So towards the retarded end of timing? I'm going to get some diesel purge now. I'll run it through and try to fire it on that. Maybe I'll take that relief valve out and check it before I run the purge through it?
 

Vince Waldon

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Apr 25, 2009
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Edmonton AB Canada
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2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
The nozzle's job is to atomize the fuel into a fine mist, so pretty safe spraying into a plastic bottle, particularly at idle... low volumes and pretty much atmospheric pressure by the time it becomes a mist. And, skin is probably more permeable to liquids than plastic.

In my mind the danger around diesel (and hydraulic systems in general) is a high-pressure stream of liquid... say, from a pin-hole leak in a high-pressure line or hose.

That said, I'd not put my hand directly under a firing injector, either, in case it miss-fires etc etc.
 

jmodge

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Greenville, MI
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2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
True, it's hard to determine. I suppose if it's getting any fuel it must be overcoming the spring pressure and popping, unless there's a issue with the injector. I fired it into a flimsy plastic water bottle, I've heard the spray can cut skin, would it rip through thin plastic? I'm guessing it's only dangerous close to the tip? As you go further out it's mostly mist? Just thinking out loud.

I'm reading 38 in value 02. So towards the retarded end of timing? I'm going to get some diesel purge now. I'll run it through and try to fire it on that. Maybe I'll take that relief valve out and check it before I run the purge through it?
38 is retarded but probably within range, you could advance it a touch. Seems about 55 is middle line. I've got injectors setup by DBW, Diesel Forward{Idparts}, and Frank Irving. They all work good. When the injector pops, it's fairly violent. I saw Frank do it in a coffee can. I don't know if it was mentioned or you checked, but if the motor isn't cranking strong the pump doesn't build enough pressure to fire the injectors. 300rpm plus you are after. I think you are on the right track soaking the pump though, stuff gums up sitting. I'd have someone with a rag ready to choke off air in case it takes off and you have to kill it. Just to be safe. Let it soak a day or two while rotating it, get a strong battery ready, It's going to fire up.
 

ColdRice

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Jan 9, 2021
Location
Maine
TDI
Golf ALH
The nozzle's job is to atomize the fuel into a fine mist, so pretty safe spraying into a plastic bottle, particularly at idle... low volumes and pretty much atmospheric pressure by the time it becomes a mist. And, skin is probably more permeable to liquids than plastic.

In my mind the danger around diesel (and hydraulic systems in general) is a high-pressure stream of liquid... say, from a pin-hole leak in a high-pressure line or hose.

That said, I'd not put my hand directly under a firing injector, either, in case it miss-fires etc etc.
Makes sense. If one of those hard lines got a pin hole it would probably be dangerous.

I ran liqui molly diesel purge through it. Cracked the injector nuts and got fuel to there and then cranked it with them tight. I'll let that soak for a bit. It's very hot and humid out today 🥵
 

ColdRice

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Maine
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Golf ALH
38 is retarded but probably within range, you could advance it a touch. Seems about 55 is middle line. I've got injectors setup by DBW, Diesel Forward{Idparts}, and Frank Irving. They all work good. When the injector pops, it's fairly violent. I saw Frank do it in a coffee can. I don't know if it was mentioned or you checked, but if the motor isn't cranking strong the pump doesn't build enough pressure to fire the injectors. 300rpm plus you are after. I think you are on the right track soaking the pump though, stuff gums up sitting. I'd have someone with a rag ready to choke off air in case it takes off and you have to kill it. Just to be safe. Let it soak a day or two while rotating it, get a strong battery ready, It's going to fire up.
I appreciate the enthusiasm lol

Its cranking between 250-315 according to VCDS. The starter is new but it did come from amazon. The battery is on a trickle charge, it could be a bit low right now as I just cranked it a bunch.

I love IDparts. I've bought tons of stuff off them. They have everything for these TDI's.

I'll advance it and check the number.

Battery's are getting expensive! The one on my daily died yesterday, $170!
 

jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
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2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
Gotta ask, Compression sound good? Wouldn't hurt to use the glowplugs. But Still think things may be gummy and within the week you will be asking about traction.
 

ColdRice

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Jan 9, 2021
Location
Maine
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Golf ALH
Gotta ask, Compression sound good? Wouldn't hurt to use the glowplugs. But Still think things may be gummy and within the week you will be asking about traction.
😂It will be a huge difference over the old 1.5 that came out.

I actually tried to check compression but apparently the check valve on my harbor freight gauge failed. The needle would bounce up with each compression stroke but would go right back down to 0. So I know there is some compression.

I did consider the possibility the rings could be stuck but it seemed unlikely all 4 would be stuck to the point of not firing. I sprayed fogging oil in the cylinders when I bought the engine.

I'll definitely heat up the glow plugs a bit next time.
 

AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
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Southeast Kentucky
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Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I cannot imagine what "soaking" the IP with anything is going to help (if it needs soaking). Assuming the "crud" breaks loose.......... well, it is going to end up having to go thru the plunger and on to the Injectors.

Take a look at these pics and come to your own conclusion.



Below, this the Vane pump inside the Injection Pump, located on the end near the Cog.






Below, notice the obvious.......... crud unbelievable ...
 

AndyBees

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Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
How did that happen?! Did it sit dry for awhile? Or some nasty fuel?
I really don't know the history. But, it did sit for a number of years, but no more than the 5+ that my engine sit.
I suspect using Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) could be a contributing factor. Also, that VE Bosch Pump is from a 1.6 IDI VW diesel engine. However, the internals are basically the same and it is highly likely that typical diesel fuel was used in it that 99% of all the others use.

But, my point is, any crud inside an IP is not going to loosen up and simply disappear or go out without notice (causing more problems).

I'd concentrate on Timing and Bleeding injectors. As others have said, the injection event is a Fog not a spray or squirt. And, the amount is extremely small especially at idle RPMs. At 70 MPH, the ALH engine is burning a little over 2 ounces of fuel per mile (all 4 cylinders). So, one cylinder would be burning a little over a quarter ounce in a mile. (128 ounces divided by 50 MPG = 2.56 ounces per mile). So, a good running ALH should do better than 50 MPG at 70 MPH. Now, think idling RPMs or starter cranking RPMs....
 

ColdRice

Active member
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Jan 9, 2021
Location
Maine
TDI
Golf ALH
Well it's not looking great. I bled the fuel lines and the injectors repeatedly, made timing adjustments. Tried feeding it from a IV (gravity feed) setup. I tried running it straight out of the diesel purge can. I haven't heard it fire once yet.

Pulled the banjo bolt on the return of the IP and the pressure relief valve. Both definitely had some crud. I immediately thought of the pictures you posted andybees. guessing this IP is no good.

I think I might have to bite the bullet and get a new IP and injectors.



 

AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
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Southeast Kentucky
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Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Yeah, doesn't look good. The internal Vane pump along with that Pressure Relief Valve are suppose to maintain internal pressure. The Internal Pressure is what loads the Plunger on each 1/4 rotation of the pump. If the Vanes are compromised due to wear and likely frozen in place with crud, well, that would be the problem ........

Edit: remove the Injector Hard Pipes, then remove the Fuel Delivery Valves on the end of the pump head. The will be tight. When you screw them out, there will be a small valve and spring ....... nothing will go flying off into the next world. Then, observe to see if they contain crud/corrosion as well.
 
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ColdRice

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Maine
TDI
Golf ALH
Any recommendations on a IP? Is there somewhere I could send the pump and injectors for a rebuild?
 

AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
There is a place called Giles that a lot of folks use. Seems they come highly recommended. I'm not sure if there is a "set" fee to rebuild or if it is based on what they replace inside. My point, it may be cheaper in the long run to buy a new one.
 

AndyBees

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TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine



 

ColdRice

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Jan 9, 2021
Location
Maine
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Golf ALH
There is a place called Giles that a lot of folks use. Seems they come highly recommended. I'm not sure if there is a "set" fee to rebuild or if it is based on what they replace inside. My point, it may be cheaper in the long run to buy a new one.
Definitely heard the name a number of times. They do seem to have a great reputation.

When buying one where would you recommend? A quick Google and PartsPlaceinc comes up. I've bought a lot of stuff with them and had no issues. Kerma looks to be a bit pricey. A used one off ebay is tempting but it seems risky.
 

AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
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Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
There are likely local shops that can rebuild the Bosch IP in your area.

There is a place in Knoxville, TN that rebuilds IPs. I used their competitor for years .. last I checked the dude that owned it retired and closed shop (ACME Diesel).


 

ColdRice

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Jan 9, 2021
Location
Maine
TDI
Golf ALH
Hello everyone. I finally decided to tackle this again.

So last year I replaced the IP with one I got off marketplace. Claimed to be removed from a running car. It had a leak at the QA gasket so I replaced both of them. The QA does it's sweep like it should.

I removed the return fitting and pulled fuel through the IP, removed all glow plugs and cracked the injector nuts. Turned it over until a mist of fuel sprays out of the the cylinders. Tightened the nuts, put in the glow plugs and turn it over. It actually fired and came to life like it wanted to run but it only runs for a few seconds and puts out a ton of smoke. I have to turn it over for probably 10 seconds or so after that and it will do it again. Eventually though the inectors seem to lose prime, while the IP seems to still have fuel? What's also interesting is after I stop cranking I see some fuel moving towards the tank in the supply line?

I suspect the IP is still not tight maybe? It sat all winter with fuel in it and it didn't leak a drop. The clear supply line was full of fuel all winter as well, it only runs back after attempting to start it.

I'm skeptical of the IP but I want to be 100% sure before spending the money.
 
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AndyBees

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Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Without going back and reading everything, it is possible you have the timing off. If the three bolts on the IP cog are roughly centered in the slots Timing should be close enough for it to start and run fine.

Next, all the smoke may be an indication that the Injection Quantity is set too high. You may need to move the QA to the Left or Right. Remember, it doesn't take much movement (a hair) to result in a considerable change in the setting. (Hammer Mod method)

Injectors don't lose prime unless the internal valve is stuck open. Once you got it to start, those Injectors were filled with fuel. So, your troubles are upstream at the IP.

The 2002 TDI engine I install in my Vanagon sit for at least 6 or 7 years. I never had much of a problem getting it to start. I made an I V that holds about 1 quart of fuel. I hung it above the engine to make sure it was getting all the fuel it needed.

Air bubbles flowing back out of the IP is not totally unusual. The IP pulls a strong vacuum on the fuel system through the filter. So, when the engine shuts down, a little fuel will be drawn backwards.
 

ColdRice

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Jan 9, 2021
Location
Maine
TDI
Golf ALH
Without going back and reading everything, it is possible you have the timing off. If the three bolts on the IP cog are roughly centered in the slots Timing should be close enough for it to start and run fine.

Next, all the smoke may be an indication that the Injection Quantity is set too high. You may need to move the QA to the Left or Right. Remember, it doesn't take much movement (a hair) to result in a considerable change in the setting. (Hammer Mod method)

Injectors don't lose prime unless the internal valve is stuck open. Once you got it to start, those Injectors were filled with fuel. So, your troubles are upstream at the IP.

The 2002 TDI engine I install in my Vanagon sit for at least 6 or 7 years. I never had much of a problem getting it to start. I made an I V that holds about 1 quart of fuel. I hung it above the engine to make sure it was getting all the fuel it needed.

Air bubbles flowing back out of the IP is not totally unusual. The IP pulls a strong vacuum on the fuel system through the filter. So, when the engine shuts down, a little fuel will be drawn backwards.
The timing should be okay, I can insert all the tools at TDC.

The quanity adjuster is a good idea, I did monitor the QA when trying to start it and I believe it was reading 50mg. I did mark the pump when replacing the gasket but that doesn't mean much being a used pump. Would to much fuel cause it not to run?
 

burpod

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Nov 27, 2004
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cape cod, ma
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If it's a stock ecu, or even tuned (normal tune at least) you should never see 50mg. 36mg would be a max for starting under the coldest conditions
 

Nevada_TDI

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Aug 17, 2008
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Reno, sort of...
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2001 Jetta TDI

Franz is good guy, and I have never had any problems

$399 for a resealed and tested 10mm IP
 

ColdRice

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Jan 9, 2021
Location
Maine
TDI
Golf ALH
So I replaced the IP with a remanufactured one from cascade german.

Did the same thing, pulled the return fitting off and pulled fuel with a mighty vac. Cracked the injector nuts and got fuel.

Still wont start, and it still seems to be losing prime whether I run it off the cars fuel system or in a can.

It's weird, if I prime the pump manually it holds the fuel in the supply line just fine. (Doesn't run back to the tank). I'll have maybe a 1/2" bubble.

After attempting to start it I actually get fuel and air burping out of the supply of the IP. I pulled the supply line off on the filter end to see if it would break the vaccum but it did not. It just kept burping fuel out of the rubber line. After if finally settles I end up with mostly air in the supply line, maybe a 6" bubble. What's also interesting is there is no fuel flowing out the return side. The return is currently just running into a bottle so I can monitor it.
 

ColdRice

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Maine
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Golf ALH
I don't have a coolant temperature sensor yet, could this be causing it to supply to much fuel to the inectors? Making it hard to purge? I also don't have any of the vaccum lines hooked up or anything. Just plugged in the actuators so the ECU knows they are there. I've seen video's of these running on a bench so I'm assuming it's okay?
 
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ColdRice

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Jan 9, 2021
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Maine
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Golf ALH
Cracked while cranking? What did it do? Spurt or dribble? Smoke while cranking?

Have you verified you have 12v at the fuel shutoff solenoid WHILE CRANKING?
What's Interesting is that cylinder 2 seems to spurt like it's bled and working correctly. The others seem to mostly dribble but it's a decent amount of fuel, enough to run down the engine and make a mess. I usually pay extra attention to #3 as it has the needle lift sensor, but it is tough getting that one primed. Yes I do get puffs of white smoke. It almost seems like it's sending to much fuel to the injectors as nothing is going out the return? Or I haven't primed it well enough.

I did check that I had 12v at the solenoid with the previous IP. I believe it was dropping to 10v while cranking but from what I saw online that's normal? I'll check it again with this new IP
 

Vince Waldon

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Edmonton AB Canada
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2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
You are absolutely positive both lobes of cyl #1 are pointing up when the cam is locked at TDC? Cam sprocket was loose and able to spin as you tensioned the belt with everything locked at TDC?

Double-checking 'cause those are the two most common oops that keep an engine from starting due to static timing issues.
 
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