ALH mk1 swap won't start

[ColdRice]

Hello, I have a ALH out of a 99 beetle in a mk1 rabbit. It's turning over but I can't seem to get it to fire.

I'm pretty confident I got the wiring correct, I'm using the 109 relay and verified it is closing when I send switched power to the ECU which in turn sends 12v power to the engine sensors.

I've triple checked the timing, cam lobes on cylinder 1 are up (valves closed) when the flywheel is at the TDC mark. Both the IP pin and cam tool fit in the slots.

I used a electric pump to push fuel through the filter and into the injection pump intil I had good flow out the return. I cracked the nuts at the injectors and cranked the engine over. I was getting fuel but it definitely wasn't spraying out. This makes me think its a fuel issue, I'm also not getting any white smoke.

Is this a IP issue? I have VCDS and can check values. Here is the fault codes, none of which would cause it not to start I believe?

I'm also questioning the fuel solenoid valve. When I turn on the switched power I hear it click and read 12v with a multimeter. It only stays on for a few seconds if not cranked. So what is the engine looking for when it sends power again? A rpm signal? I haven't been able to check it while cranking yet.

This engine has been sitting around for a few years, I was told it had 115,xxx and came out of a totalled beetle but was a good running engine.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated!

 

[AndyBees]

Contrary to what you may have read or heard someone say, fuel will not necessarily spray at the injectors with the nuts loosened.
I've owned VW Diesels for over 42 years ................. bled a lot of injector hard lines during all those years. Not one time did I ever see
spraying at a loosened nut.............. bubbles, dribbling, dripping, etc., but no spraying! With the nut loosened, there's really no restriction to cause spraying.

Did you do anything to the Timing Belt? Those three bolts holding the Injector Pump Cog are very important. It doesn't take much to get it seriously out of time.... It only takes a smidge in either direction. You may have to mark the location as a base mark and then work from there.

The fuel shut off/on solenoid only gets 12 volts for a few seconds........... it drops almost to zero in a few seconds. If you are getting fuel at the injector nuts, well, the solenoid is working.

EDIT: My engine sit for at least 6 years ,,, it was hard to start. Make sure the ECU is getting proper grounding.

 

[greengeeker]

I'm also not getting any white smoke.

Here is the fault codes, none of which would cause it not to start I believe?

I agree, sounds like you're not getting fuel injected. The fuel temp sensor is the closest - it will result in low power and should not prevent it from starting. The codes provided won't prevent start.

I ran into a similar challenge getting my TDI Eurovan going. Same story with my engine (injectors, injection pump, everything) sitting for MANY years. I primed 5x, advanced the timing, etc. It took ~20x start attempts before it finally came to life.

 

[ColdRice]

I see, i wasn't sure if it should spray or not. Would the lack of white smoke out the exhuast indicate injectors? I'll try priming it some more with the nuts cracked loose.

I did install a timing belt kit. I have all the proper locking tools. This is only my second time doing a ALH but I've done it many times on the old IDI vw diesels. I did consider trying to advance the pump slightly but my concern is I'm not getting any pops or bangs at all. If its close I should get some pops yes? I'll attach a picture of the IP sprocket at TDC.

I get Rpms on vcds when cranking so that rules out CPS?

I'm leaning towards IP issue or injectors as there seems to be a lack of fuel

How can I test the IP? I'm getting 12v at the red/violet and yellow/black pins on the IP. Is there numbers I can look at in VCDS when cranking? I'm also considering opening the top of the pump since the fuel temperature sensor seems to have failed anyway.

I will definitely clean and check the grounds!

 

[ColdRice]

I agree, sounds like you're not getting fuel injected. The fuel temp sensor is the closest - it will result in low power and should not prevent it from starting. The codes provided won't prevent start.

I ran into a similar challenge getting my TDI Eurovan going. Same story with my engine (injectors, injection pump, everything) sitting for MANY years. I primed 5x, advanced the timing, etc. It took ~20x start attempts before it finally came to life.

Good to know the codes wouldn't keep it from running.

I'll keep priming and see what happens before I go any deeper.

 

[greengeeker]

A healthy "spurt" might be more accurate...it certainly doesn't spray. 2-10" high spurt depending on MANY factors (cranking speed, how much you "cracked" the injector lines, etc). If it bubbles or oozes out of your cracked lines, it isn't primed. Please note that if your pump head seal is bad you won't be able to prime the IP by pulling a vacuum on the return line. For these pumps, I have a boat fuel bulb to PUSH fuel through the IP.

Whenever I have a no start situation, I always put a trouble light on the fuel shutoff solenoid to ensure that behaves as expected. I would also remove that guy to make sure its oring hasn't moved around, preventing plunger movement.

 

[AndyBees]

With each 90 degree rotation of the Injection Pump, the plunger is loaded with fuel as it rotates. The rotation motion and plunging are at the same time. The fuel is compressed to the point of injection pressure as the engine reaches TDC for the cylinder coming up to fire. The Fuel Shut off/on solenoid allows that fuel to flowing into the chamber(s) that load the plunger. Fuel inside the IP, when spinning, is pressurized by the Vane Pump (inside the Injection Pump).

Other than being electronically controlled, there is little difference in the ALH TDI Injection Pump and an old Bosch 1.6 pump on an MK! VW from 40 years ago.

So, with the above in mind, remove the Solenoid and the plunger valve and spring (if they do not come out). Once you are sure everything is out, have someone crank the engine while you observe fuel flowing out of the Shut off/on valve hole. If the Vane Pump is robust, there should be a HUGE amount of fuel come out almost instantly............... unless there is a lot of air inside the pump housing. If fuel flows out good, then reinstall the Shut off/on valve and proceed to bleed the injector hard lines.

 

[ColdRice]

I did remove the fuel solenoid last night. A bunch of fuel poured out but I did not crank it while out.

It sounds like I'm close, I just don't have enough fuel going to the injectors.

Really appreciate the info and suggestions. I'll give it another go and check in.

 

[ColdRice]

So no start still unfortunately. I bled it at the injectors to the point where fuel was running down the block and steadily dripping into a pan. I think it's safe to say it's getting fuel. I was getting the spurts of fuel as well.

I'm still not getting any firing at all, is it possible for the injectors to be plugged to the point of not firing at all? When i look up symptoms of bad injectors or IP, low MPG, loss of power, ans rough idle are what I see but never a no start condition.

I also watched cylinder 1-4 injection quantity in VCDS while cranking and I get 0 on all of them. Looking at the regular injection quantity value, it goes up to 30. This lead me to double check the pins for the IP plug as well as the lift needle and CPS. Everything ohmed out good back to the ECU.

I'm not sure what else to do. Maybe I'll pull a injector and see how it looks?

 

[AndyBees]

Does it reek of un-burned diesel fuel when cranking? Is there white smoke coming out the tail pipe?

If not, likely there is no injection going on!

 

[greengeeker]

I'm not sure what else to do. Maybe I'll pull a injector and see how it looks?

You can pull an injector, reconnect it to the hard line and put the nozzle in a glass jar. Then you can visibly see if it is actually "firing".

 

[AndyBees]

You can pull an injector, reconnect it to the hard line and put the nozzle in a glass jar. Then you can visibly see if it is actually "firing".

I've removed all of the injectors and flipped the hard lines around so I could put a plastic bottle on each of them to observe while cranking the engine. I was surprised at the "fog" made by injectors as they "fired." (no spraying or squirting) For the engine I was working on, it was an automatic and the owner had got it out of time doing a TB job. I got 'er going!

 

[ColdRice]

It did reek of raw diesel but the block was covered in it from the purging

But no I wasn't smelling raw diesel before that. I'm pretty confident now that no fuel is being injected into the chamber.

I'm going to do exactly what you guys suggested, hook up the injectors to the hard lines and fire it into a bottle. I attempted to remove one today and they're pretty stuck. I’ve sprayed some PB blaster on them and ordered the metalnerd slide hammer.

 

[ColdRice]

Soo I managed to get the cylinder 4 injector off. It's definitely dirty I can't even see the small holes in the end.

I cranked it with the injector attached to the hard line, no fuel. I cranked it with the just the hardline going into a bottle and I got fuel.

So it appears the injectors are in fact plugged. I've disassembled this one and have the nozzle soaking in diesel. I can't seem to remove the needle, tried using a magnet.

Should i just get new nozzles? What's the best way to clean it up?

 

[greengeeker]

That's what I figured you had happening - and likely what I was struggling with on my Eurovan.

If you knew anyone with an ultrasonic cleaner you could toss them in there. Honestly, it would be rolling the dice how things would turn out.

Personally, I would use this excuse to upgrade.

 

[ColdRice]

Personally, I would use this excuse to upgrade.

I was actually thinking that too but man they're expensive! Any recommendations? I've bought tons of stuff off IDparts.

Or maybe buy a set from kerma?

https://www.idparts.com/upgraded-complete-injectors-upgraded-nozzles-hot-swap-1zahualh-p-725

 

[greengeeker]

They are indeed. I'm happy with my balanced injectors I've purchased from drivbiwire - they are noticeably smoother than unbalanced ones. Will your TDI run just fine if you install them yourself? Absolutely yes. If you're upgrading, stick to one of the tdiclub vendors selling quality nozzles - Do not be tempted by el cheapo amazon nozzles.

 

[ColdRice]

They are indeed. I'm happy with my balanced injectors I've purchased from drivbiwire - they are noticeably smoother than unbalanced ones. Will your TDI run just fine if you install them yourself? Absolutely yes. If you're upgrading, stick to one of the tdiclub vendors selling quality nozzles - Do not be tempted by el cheapo amazon nozzles.

Drivebywire? I looked it up and they sell nozzles? Do I need to send in mine to have them go over them?

I took apart the injectors and carefully removed the nozzles only, cleaned the tips with a brass brush and sprayed carb cleaner through verifiying that the 5 little holes were no plugged. Removed the pintles and made sure they were free. Then blew air through the nozzle tip with a small rubber hose to hopefully have it as clean as possible before reassembly.

I installed the injectors with new copper washers. Still won't start. I'm starting to think the injection pump isn't producing enough pressure to pop them. I'll try injecting one into a bottle again.

 

[AndyBees]

I didn't think so ....
It is out of time!

 

[ColdRice]

I didn't think so ....
It is out of time!

I'm still not getting any puffs of smoke though? Shouldn't I be if the timing is off? I'll check it again anyway.

I did some more research. It looks like a higher IQ means less fuel and a lower IQ means more? I'm reading 30 when cranking and normal values should be 2-6?? Could this be something gummed up in the pump? The IP has sat around for a few years unfortunately. It still had some fuel in it when I installed it.

 

[AndyBees]

Well, the IP on the ALH engine I installed in my 84 Vanagon had been sitting at least 5 years in my basement. I think the guy I got it from had it in storage maybe a year. As I think I said previously, it was difficult to start. I never changed any settings ....... just kept priming, bleeding, cranking, etc., until it fired-up. However, as I think I said previously, check the grounds. Because, the hard initial start I experienced was ground related (which I did not know at the time). In fact, I had hard starts for almost 18 months. I chased about everything suggestion on this forum ......... re-sealed the IP, new battery, changed the starter, changed the timing (using VCDS and relative procedures), fuel filter, changed the shut off/on solenoid, etc. So, one day, I attached a big heavy cable to the Negative on the battery and bolted the other end directly to the engine..... boom, it fired up immediately. The ground cable from the transmission to the chassis was tight but not making good ground ....... especially for the ECU. The starter was apparently "sucking" a huge amount of the ground from the ECU.

Yes, a high IQ means lean fueling and visa versa for a low number which makes zero sense to me. On a 20 degree morning, the IQ number will be high upon firing-up the engine and it will begin to drop off as the engine warms-ups. That alone tells me the opposite, high number more fuel and low number less fuel ..... But, who am I to argue with the experts.

I am not sure if you can change the IQ with VCDS if the engine is not running. Maybe the experts (gurus) will chime-in on the subject.

 

[ColdRice]

Well, the IP on the ALH engine I installed in my 84 Vanagon had been sitting at least 5 years in my basement. I think the guy I got it from had it in storage maybe a year. As I think I said previously, it was difficult to start. I never changed any settings ....... just kept priming, bleeding, cranking, etc., until it fired-up. However, as I think I said previously, check the grounds. Because, the hard initial start I experienced was ground related (which I did not know at the time). In fact, I had hard starts for almost 18 months. I chased about everything suggestion on this forum ......... re-sealed the IP, new battery, changed the starter, changed the timing (using VCDS and relative procedures), fuel filter, changed the shut off/on solenoid, etc. So, one day, I attached a big heavy cable to the Negative on the battery and bolted the other end directly to the engine..... boom, it fired up immediately. The ground cable from the transmission to the chassis was tight but not making good ground ....... especially for the ECU. The starter was apparently "sucking" a huge amount of the ground from the ECU.

Yes, a high IQ means lean fueling and visa versa for a low number which makes zero sense to me. On a 20 degree morning, the IQ number will be high upon firing-up the engine and it will begin to drop off as the engine warms-ups. That alone tells me the opposite, high number more fuel and low number less fuel ..... But, who am I to argue with the experts.

I am not sure if you can change the IQ with VCDS if the engine is not running. Maybe the experts (gurus) will chime-in on the subject.

Where did you attach the ground for the engine? Would clean aluminum on the transmission be good enough? I'm confident the chassis ground is good but the engine ground is questionable.

 

[Nevada_TDI]

Go to the timing graph in VCDS while turning the engine over and see what it shows
That may be a place to start looking from.
EDIT: the last time I replaced the timing belt, all the pins and camshaft were lined up TDC, and the timing was really advanced.
I still do not know why...

If you look at the six or seven numbers in the boxes, one will read a basic timing number, the graph won't work at this point.

 

[AndyBees]

Where did you attach the ground for the engine? Would clean aluminum on the transmission be good enough? I'm confident the chassis ground is good but the engine ground is questionable.

Using a new cable with prepared ends, I bolted it to the engine block just below the head (vacuum pump end). I do not remember where I bolted it on the chassis, but obviously in a separate place away from the OE site. I also cleaned the OE ground ends and re-bolted them..... cannot get enough grounding.

 

[ColdRice]

Got new ground cables, I seem to be getting some smoke now, I can smell burning diesel.

I've tried advancing and retarding the pump. Still won't start. I think I'm going to get some diesel purge and let it sit in the IP.

I tried looking at the timing graph while cranking. It doesn't give a value. I think the engine needs to be running?

 

[AndyBees]

Well, although I've had my VCDS for almost 20 years, I am not top notch using it. Anyway, the graph is what I use to set the timing. And, to see the graph the engine must be running with a minimum coolant temp of 85c.

Keep in mind, moving the Injection Pump shaft by the width of a hair will change the timing far more than you can imagine. So, if you are getting smoke, likely you are getting close. Actually, if the IP was pushing fuel out when you bled it, well, it is doing what it is suppose to do. The IP pushes out about 28,000 PSI if I remember correctly. If the plunger is fully loaded, well, it'll push out at the rate of that pressure!

 

[jmodge]

Got new ground cables, I seem to be getting some smoke now, I can smell burning diesel.

I've tried advancing and retarding the pump. Still won't start. I think I'm going to get some diesel purge and let it sit in the IP.

I tried looking at the timing graph while cranking. It doesn't give a value. I think the engine needs to be running?

If you are getting smoke, you're getting closer. Won't hurt to soak it in diesel purge though, advance mechanism could be stuck. There is a set of fields that show timing rather than the graph. I don't know if it shows up without running though. If I remember, they show up before you switch to basic settings for the graph, maybe??? If you don't find it or no one chimes in, I will check tomorrow.

 

[ColdRice]

If you are getting smoke, you're getting closer. Won't hurt to soak it in diesel purge though, advance mechanism could be stuck. There is a set of fields that show timing rather than the graph. I don't know if it shows up without running though. If I remember, they show up before you switch to basic settings for the graph, maybe??? If you don't find it or no one chimes in, I will check tomorrow.

I think I saw a post on this. I believe it was values 02 and 09 after entering the 000. I'll double check.

When you say advance mechanism are you refering to what some call the case pressure relief valve? I did some more research and looking at post 35 and 36 they talk about it. The part just above the fuel inlet on the pump. Some say it will cause a no start. I've seen some say it just runs rough.

My TDI Injection Pump DEAD OR ALIVE ??

It's been a couple of years since I did the timing belt on my 2003 Golf but I am scratching my head at your crank timing mark picture. My guess is you have misidentified the crank timing mark and as a result your cam and IP timing are off. Take a look at this thread here. Also a 2000 Golf...

forums.tdiclub.com

I'm thinking it might still be a fuel issue. Although I seem to be getting some fuel I don't think it's enough. The injector #4 that I fired outside the cylinder didn't put out much fuel at all.

I am smelling burning diesel but visually you can maybe see a faint fog but not a thick smoke like I'm used to seeing on these engines.

I'm confident that the pump timing is in a position that I should at least be getting some pops and bangs. I can slide the pin in at TDC. I'll try advancing it again anyway. I don't know the history on this pump or engine so anything is possible.

 

[Vince Waldon]

At idle the air/fuel ratio on a diesel is 100:1 or better (which is why they are so slow to warm up at idle in the driveway), so you're not going to see a ton of fuel spraying out of an injector while cranking.

No way to tell what's "normal" via descriptions over the interwebs, just perhaps cautioning not to read too much into what you're seeing for fuel during cranking.

 

[jmodge]

Field two shows start of injection timing. FYI, approx 68° is top of the chart. I think high 30s is the bottom. Did you put some liquid Molly diesel purge in it and let it set?