alh m-Tdi marinisation to match Mercruiser Gen1 drive

iddhi

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1.9 TDI water cooled Exhaust castings finally succeeded. These will work for SDI engines TDI's and PD.
 
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RichB

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2002 Golf TDI, 1993 Toyota T100 1Z M-TDI GT20/52 turbo
What is the status for these exhaust manifolds or is it better to just modify one from a Kabota or Yanmar? Thanks!
 

pan-d-man

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RichB, I have a drawing for a manifold adapter from the 1.9 TDI to fit a an exhaust manifold and cooling exchanger from a Yanmar 4LH. It stands the cooler about 3" off the face of the head. I think the one designed as shown on this thread is a great option as well. Either way would be an economical option.
 

RichB

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That would be great! Bowman has discontinued their kit which I think is what Pathfinder used and Lancing was kind of hard to communicate w/, so modifying something definitely works for me.

Can you recommend a place that sells this Yanmar manifold? I think I saw on Ebay for around $500. What is it made of, aluminum, bronze, cast iron ?

Also, what raw water pump are you using? I was going w/ the Jabsco one Bowman used in their kit.
 

iddhi

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The first two prototype manifolds are cast and machined, the machining part turned out to be quiet challenging.


Also finally have the Bell machined, finished that just a couple of weeks ago. Will assemble the DYNO tester this weekend and give it its maiden try.


Also finished my first minimum Standalone harness plus did the ECU tuning to run the engine without MAF sensor and of course deleted the IMMO.
Will have a nice comparison for running the unit with my mechanical 11mm pump (currently mounted in the boat) VS the electronically controlled EDC15 10mm VP37 version (mounted on my Dyno engine)



Will be back to California this month, i updated the rear mounts of the boat engine and i will be able to test it under full throttle. I also prepared a water/meth injection system for the boat combined with an exhaust temperature gauge, will post the results as soon as possible.
 
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RichB

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2002 Golf TDI, 1993 Toyota T100 1Z M-TDI GT20/52 turbo
Outstanding! Very interested to see the difference between the two pumps as I am still questioning the mechanical pump on my truck's conversion and would go to the electronic pump if there was a standalone harness for my 1Z.
Again, amazing work..
 

iddhi

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I am still questioning the mechanical pump on my truck's conversion and would go to the electronic pump if there was a standalone harness for my 1Z.
I can offer a standalone 1Z harness by the end of the year. Let me know if interested.
Spend a long time to find sources for each and every connector, now the set is complete.
 

iddhi

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2000 SDI Jetta
Finished the new coupler this week. Since the Mercruiser drive shaft is firmly connected to the Gimbal housing and the gimbal housing is firmly attached to the Boat, the coupler needs to compensate all engine vibration and movements. The original Mercruiser design is not suitable to cope with the dynamics of a Diesel, only a few cm of rubber are available to isolate vibration.
This is especially true since i plan to place the engine on silicon filled engine mounts, thus there will be a lot of movement.

Here the original Mercruiser design:




I decided to go for the "hardy disc" solution or flexible coupling, also used on many automotive drive shafts.

Here an extract from the industrial coupling supplier Centa:

"Based on a highly elastic rubber element subject only to compressive stress. Extremely high-performing design with high torsional elasticity. Dampens torsional vibrations and shocks and compensates considerable axial, radial and angular misalignments. Electrically insulating and thermally resistant in silicon design. For rupture-proof and backlash-free transmission of high torques. "

So i purchased an industrial "flexible coupling" in the right range and firmness and had a sleeve machined in the right size.

Only thing missing was the inside splines matching the Mercruiser shaft.
So we measure the old coupler under the Microscope and drafted a CAD drawing based on that layout.



Then had the splines cut by highly precise wire EDM.

The part turned out perfectly, shaft fits into the sleeve with just the right amount of friction and play.





I am ready now to finish the silicon rubber mounts, will test the boat in the next weeks with these new components under full throttle.
Cant wait to see if she glides...
 
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iddhi

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Hi Vanbcguy,

read through the last pages of your build, like your VNT controller very much. What mileage do you get when cruising with your MTDI setup?

Still not sure if i will stick with the mechanical pump or go electronic.

Like the fact that i have so many safety features with the electronic version, could be especially important with a marine engine operation at WOT often.
 

vanbcguy

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To be honest I haven't had a good "economy" run yet. Most of my driving has been around the city and has been somewhat... ah... spirited. I rarely manage to even go for groceries without having the pedal close to the floor at least once. Fuel consumption has been around 7.5 /100km with that type of driving. I have had one long highway run that was in the mid 5's though the engine was only about 2000 km old then so barely broken in. I'm doing a run down to Seattle this weekend, will see what kind of numbers I pull. I've definitely noticed her running nicer now that she's got some more miles on her, but I'm still only at about 10,000 km. I also have very large nozzles - HFLOX Warp 7s which are about a .275, bigger than R520s. My build was definitely not intended to get great mileage, unless you compare it to a gasser.

Safety wise I'd focus on good gauges, the VW computer won't do anything to tell you about low oil pressure, high coolant temperature or high EGTs which are the things that actually hurt an engine. It's more focused on emissions related things. Plus being out on the water and having electrical problems could prove deadly. I have a couple Auber Instruments gauges on mine monitoring oil pressure and temperature - they have a relay output than can be used to sound an alarm or even shut off the fuel if so desired. A trio of them hooked up to a decently loud alarm buzzer would provide excellent protection for your engine. The mechanical engine can basically be made to work in almost any circumstances other than a complete mechanical failure which makes it a good fit for the marine environment too. It's not likely to leave you stranded, whereas a drive by wire system never meant to be used on a boat.... Ehhhhhhh....

Since as you say you'll be spending most of your time at or near WOT you'd be better off with the simplicity and reliability of a wastegate turbo too. I do like my VNT but what it gives me is faster response time, something that I wouldn't see being all that important in a marine application. A bunch of folks over on vwdiesel.net have been running smaller Holset turbos which would be ideal for your application - modern turbos with modern efficiency and flow characteristics but still dead simple operation.

My VNT controller does have a second "N75" type valve connected between the intake and the LDA on my pump. When EGTs get high it progressively "hides" boost from my pump which in turn reduces fueling. Works quite well actually. The EGT management features again shouldn't be as much of an issue for you though, I built mine to be pushed to the ragged edge.
 

iddhi

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I totally agree on the simplicity point and having to much electronic stuff in the boat, but hey i want to learn it the hard way.
Already had much fun getting my dyno engine to run, playing with injection quantity.

I definitely will go with a wastegate turbo, have a GT25 installed, need the boost at higher RPM, dont care about torque.

The ECU (EDC15) has an engine safe feature monitoring oil temps, playing with that feature at the moment to monitor EGT's instead.

did you every Dyno your setup?
 

vanbcguy

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Haven't been on the dyno yet no.

I've been gradually turning up the fuel as the engine has broken in. Didn't want to slam on a fresh build too hard.

I need to do some pump mods before I really get the full potential out of this engine too, the governor on the pump I'm using is currently set for only 4500 RPM, meaning fuel starts pulling off around 4K. Given that I've got upgraded internals, a bigger cam, etc I'm giving up a lot in the 4K-5.5K range right now. But like I said, been slowly easing in to things. :) I'm past the warranty period on my pump now so opening it up to change the governor springs isn't quite such a big deal.
 

shakescreek

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18'6" welded aluminum jetboat with pd160, gtb2056vl, and tuning by rub87, 2003 chev blazer with bhw swap, 2000 jetta alh with gtd1752 vrk, .240 injectors, 11mm pump, fmic, 6 spd manual
"It's not likely to leave you stranded, whereas a drive by wire system never meant to be used on a boat.... Ehhhhhhh...." Actually there are lots of new marine engines available that are drive by wire. I wouldn't be too concerned about the electronics in a marine environment. I have 8 years and 1400 hours on the pd in my boat with full electronics with no issues. I always carry a spare ecu and a handful of sensors on the boat just in case, but I have never needed any of them yet. Actually it's much easier to carry electronic spares than mechanical ones as they weigh almost nothing and don't take up much room. Really like your flexible coupler system.
 

iddhi

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Actually it's much easier to carry electronic spares than mechanical ones as they weigh almost nothing and don't take up much room.
Very good point. I also like the fact that the injection timing can be controlled much more precise than with the mechanical pump.
 

vanbcguy

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What electronic spares can you carry for a VE pump engine that even exist on a mechanical one? What parts are present on a mechanical VE pump engine that aren't present on an electronic one?

Anyhow re mileage, I'm back from my Seattle run. 500km round trip, mainly freeway driving with a bit of city. I did not drive easy at all. Winter tires, winter fuel and a rear wheel bearing that's due for replacement. 5.2L/100km
 

oldpoopie

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Can someone explain to me the point of the water cooled exhaust manifold?

Doest the turbo turn heat from exhaust into pressure in the intake? Cooling the exhaust will lower its pressure and density and make the turbo far less efficient, am i wrong?
 

ben2go

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Can someone explain to me the point of the water cooled exhaust manifold?

Doest the turbo turn heat from exhaust into pressure in the intake? Cooling the exhaust will lower its pressure and density and make the turbo far less efficient, am i wrong?
The exhaust being cooled is to cut down on heat and fire risk in the engine room, or under the engine cover.Turbos are water cooled on autos now,not the turbine or compressor housings themselves,but the center housing.The water in the manifold should be the same engine running temp, or just a little hotter.The exhaust gas temps will be the same.All the water jacket manifold does is absorb some radiant heat.While this may affect performance,it's not enough to be noticeable.
 

shakescreek

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18'6" welded aluminum jetboat with pd160, gtb2056vl, and tuning by rub87, 2003 chev blazer with bhw swap, 2000 jetta alh with gtd1752 vrk, .240 injectors, 11mm pump, fmic, 6 spd manual
vanbcguy- what I carry for spares is an ecu, tps, imp/iat sensor, crank position sensor, cam position sensor, coolant and fuel temp sensors, and a spare lift pump for the fuel tank. Mines a pd though so never had the option of going all mechanical. My point was just to counter your inference that if an engine is electronically controlled it will leave your stranded if you use it for marine use. Pretty much all the new marine engines are electronically controlled. In my opinion with all the stuff that can potentially fail on a boat the electronics is the least of my worries and the easiest to carry spares for.

oldpoopie- I agree with you that with water cooled manifolds you will lose some efficiency from the turbo. That and weight are why I opted to go with dry exhaust on my boat, although I do run a water cooled center housing on the turbo and ceramic coating on the exhaust. I set mine up with the sides open though so I get lots of air flow through the engine compartment. Most boats have the engine inclosed in a hatch with very little airflow and things would just get too hot in the engine compartment without the water cooled exhaust. As ben2go mentioned most of the newer stuff runs engine coolant through the ex manifolds, which would likely cool the exhaust somewhat less than the older systems that ran raw water through the manifolds.
 

iddhi

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"Cooling the exhaust will lower its pressure and density and make the turbo far less efficient, am i wrong?"

If that is true for exhaust manifolds then i assume it should be true for inter-cooling.

In addition I doubt that the rather small surface area of the exhaust manifold has any impact on the exhaust temperatures. Especially considering the speed of the exhaust gases when traveling trough the manifold.
 

vanbcguy

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Shakes: When something is engineered for its application them it's usually pretty good at doing what it is supposed to. A marine engine with electronic controls doesn't particularly worry me, but trying to adapt an automotive engine to marine use means you are taking on responsibility for the engineering decisions. That was basically my point.

PD engines definitely are a whole other thing and yep pure mechanical operation isn't an option. The OP is using a VE engine though, where there's actually very little that the ECU provides other than finer control over timing and the ability to use a VNT turbo. Other than that it's basically the same engine with either a mechanical or electronic pump on it - still has all the same moving parts. The electronic VE pumps wear out a lot more than the mechanical ones do purely because of their electronic bits, look how many posts there are on here with quantity adjuster related issues.

Everything the computer is doing is trying to make an engine that idles more quietly and reduces emissions under partial load conditions. Timing adjustment for instance isn't really a big advantage when you run basically at the same RPM all the time, that's why lots of big commercial diesels didn't even have variable timing until much more recently.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti electronics by any means. I built an ECU to run my VNT because I think it's neat. It's just that they have certain things they're good at, and with a VE engine all the benefits are negated when you are running at a reasonably fixed RPM. When it comes down to it you still have the same mechanical plunger bouncing along in the same pump head feeding the same injectors. Why add complexity? Do you really need the QA buzzing around trying to equalize power output between cylinders or do you just need to have your injectors balances properly? Do you need a 3D timing map or do you just need it set up for optimal timing at your cruising RPM? Does the ECU need to control the turbo or is a properly sized unit with a straight wastegate adjusted properly going to do the job?

Naturally the OP should go with whatever makes him the happiest. If he wants to learn about the Bosch ECU and sees this project as an opportunity to do so then why not? This project is obviously a whole lot more than the easiest way to make a boat go forwards.
 

iddhi

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"A marine engine with electronic controls doesn't particularly worry me, but trying to adapt an automotive engine to marine use means you are taking on responsibility for the engineering decisions."

So far i could not figure out any major differences between Automotive engines and their marine cousin, GM. Ford, Isuzu, VW you name it.
Other then the cooling/exhaust system of course.

In case of the VW engine i even compare the ECU maps of a marine engine and a Golf (EDC15) in Winols, 98% identical.....
 

vanbcguy

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Find me a marine engine with a foot pedal accelerator and we'll call it sorted.

There's always stuff like the corrosion resistance of connectors, the way the harness is wrapped and routed, etc that cause problems down the road. Again if I had a PD or CR engine lying around with all the bits I'd certainly give it a go but VE engines are barely electronic as it is and are first generation at that. What does it gives you other than potential problems?
 

keaton

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Find me a marine engine with a foot pedal accelerator and we'll call it sorted.
have you ever seen a jet boat?

look a foot controlled throttle

"A marine engine with electronic controls doesn't particularly worry me, but trying to adapt an automotive engine to marine use means you are taking on responsibility for the engineering decisions."

So far i could not figure out any major differences between Automotive engines and their marine cousin, GM. Ford, Isuzu, VW you name it.
Other then the cooling/exhaust system of course.

In case of the VW engine i even compare the ECU maps of a marine engine and a Golf (EDC15) in Winols, 98% identical.....
you are correct there is not much of a difference. my boar has a marinized GM 350. different exhaust, different cam, different head gaskets, different freeze plugs. at the time of manufacturing they didn't know if it would be salt water or fresh water. with a closed cooling then you don't need to worry about that. in almost all cases diesel marine engines run harder/more fuel (hotter) and can get away with it as the effectively have an unlimited cooling potential where a car doesn't

another things you guys are not considering with the water cooled exhaust in a turbo application is that boat run at full load all the time (except at N in idle) so even if your are knocking 10% of heat energy out of the exhaust... who cares your at full load.

further more turbo marine application have water cooled exhaust, turbine housings and down pipes. and in most cases all of the water that was used for cooling is dumped into the down pipe, usually after the down turn to prevent reservation of water into the motor.

see the freeze plugs in the turbine housing:


water inlets on the turbine:


gale banks marine diesel duramax, 6.6L of pure goodness.
water cooled exhaust, turbine and down pipe
 

iddhi

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Yep putting a water cooled jacket around my GT25 turbo is the next project....
 

shakescreek

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18'6" welded aluminum jetboat with pd160, gtb2056vl, and tuning by rub87, 2003 chev blazer with bhw swap, 2000 jetta alh with gtd1752 vrk, .240 injectors, 11mm pump, fmic, 6 spd manual
Actually pretty much all the go fast boats run foot throttles. Never seen a whitewater marathon boat or a sprint boat with a hand throttle. Even the drag boats all run foot throttles.
 

rotarykid

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the entire time under high load thing is something boat engine builders have to always take into account when designing a marine engine. There is no coasting off load for a marine application which means you build up heat & stress loads not seen in any other setting.

I had a close friend back in the 70s & 80s who would try to transplant auto engines into boats. The real part of that quote is try, he learned that engines that could go 300,000 miles in a auto application would fly apart in what was short order when installed in a boat. It came down to the fact that the engine could not handle the constant strain without heavy modification to cooling and lubrication. After a few years of trial and error he figured out how to make his transplants very reliable long term.

I learned a lot of what I know today from watching what he did fail. Then he would spend months taking things apart figuring out what went wrong. Then he would take what he learned to avoid the failure the next time.....

The rest of what I know about this came from another friend who today builds racing engines. a lot of trial and error there also!...........
 

keaton

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the entire time under high load thing is something boat engine builders have to always take into account when designing a marine engine. There is no coasting off load for a marine application which means you build up heat & stress loads not seen in any other setting.

I had a close friend back in the 70s & 80s who would try to transplant auto engines into boats. The real part of that quote is try, he learned that engines that could go 300,000 miles in a auto application would fly apart in what was short order when installed in a boat. It came down to the fact that the engine could not handle the constant strain without heavy modification to cooling and lubrication. After a few years of trial and error he figured out how to make his transplants very reliable long term.

I learned a lot of what I know today from watching what he did fail. Then he would spend months taking things apart figuring out what went wrong. Then he would take what he learned to avoid the failure the next time.....

The rest of what I know about this came from another friend who today builds racing engines. a lot of trial and error there also!...........
I know a few people who did this as well the biggest thing is the same as what you said cooling and lubrication system. mainly lubrication

the 1st thing the water should pass through is the oil to water cooler then motor. I know Aluminum and salt water don't mix well, IMO the OP should look into a stainless steel Oil to water cooler and run all the cooling water through it 1st then the AWIC then the motor heat exchange.

also IMO that AWIC is not nearly big enough, there should be no reason not to have that 2 bars @ ocean water temps ( below ambient).

there are a few guys at the lakes here who are running Twin Turbo V8's (383 SBC & 402 or 427 BBC), they have massive AWIC (~5"x 36" x24" not including the water jackets) and the air charge is never above the lake water temp ~80F, ambient is ~110-120F
 
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